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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    No, read the source. My quote is not what she says. See, she probably does not think about her self in third person.

    Astarii (thinking in her mind):
    How could this be happening? How could the Horde have gotten so far, and how—in Elune’s name, why?—had the Horde chosen to burn the World Tree? This was more than war. More than cruelty.

    Narrator:
    This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme that Astarii could not understand it.
    Oh boy. That's literally not how that works. The narrator is describing her feelings, not objective facts. Trying to claim otherwise is just screaming that don't understand how storytelling in English works. It's literalism of the kind that gets you a poor grade in English Lit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    The genocide is mentioned again in the Novella. It is a line between Tyrande speaking and Anduin thinking, but it doesn't seem to be only a thought as in Astarii's quote.

    “Then, little one, I shall name you Finel. ‘The last.’ For you are the last kaldorei to escape with your life.”

    The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents. How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained of their people.

    Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide.

    Anduin had known she was selfish—arrogant, too. Cunning.

    Driven. But he had never expected this. Through blurred vision, he saw Genn Greymane’s face as his wife clung to him, and he realized that not even Genn, who hated Sylvanas with his whole heart, could believe it. No one had thought she would put her cruelty before her cleverness. There was no strategic purpose, no possible reason to destroy the tree. Far from it—with this unfathomable decision, Sylvanas had united the Alliance in a way nothing else could.
    This appears to be Anduin's thoughts. That's confirmed by the lines after the genocide reference. If you read much, you see this all the time. Again it doesn't make it a fact.

    What it establishes is that Anduin regards it as genocide. That's the fact there. Now as Anduin is generally not given to hyperbole that helps the case that it is but the narrator is describing a thought process.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Oh boy. That's literally not how that works. The narrator is describing her feelings, not objective facts. Trying to claim otherwise is just screaming that don't understand how storytelling in English works. It's literalism of the kind that gets you a poor grade in English Lit.
    "This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme ..." is not a description of what she feels but the context why she feels what she is feeling.

    But whatever, make up your own headcanon about this, I don't care.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2019-05-24 at 02:35 PM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Oh boy. That's literally not how that works. The narrator is describing her feelings, not objective facts. Trying to claim otherwise is just screaming that don't understand how storytelling in English works. It's literalism of the kind that gets you a poor grade in English Lit.

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    This appears to be Anduin's thoughts. That's confirmed by the lines after the genocide reference. If you read much, you see this all the time. Again it doesn't make it a fact.

    What it establishes is that Anduin regards it as genocide. That's the fact there. Now as Anduin is generally not given to hyperbole that helps the case that it is but the narrator is describing a thought process.
    I'm not saying it is a "fact". I'm saying here the 'genocide' is not actually put within lines of thought. Before it is a conversation between Mia and Tyrande, after it is Anduin's thought. I included those thoughts to make sure that everybody knows the context and how it's delivered. Yes, it could be Anduin's thoughts, that is highly probable. But it could also be the writer's thought conveyed through the story (who mostly writes from Anduin's perspective here anyway), because in this case it's not established that the inner monologue already begun. So it's a matter of interpretation. You say it's nothing, that's ok from what we can gain here, but don't be surprised if other people see it differently from you. Genocide is mentioned twice in this story and while that doesn't need to mean anything (because of it just feeling that way to the people involved), it very well can. The writer felt the need to tell us about it.

  4. #124
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    From an English Lit perspective there's no reasonable interpretation that has it as anything other than a thought in both cases. To believe otherwise requires ignoring the context and interpretating a single sentence as "not a thought" despite the fact that following sentences clearly are thoughts. It's beyond reaching and I guarantee would get you a bad grade if you claimed it as a legit interpretation because it isn't. Will some people disagree? Yes. But that's because many people are voracious but very poor readers (and lack the self awareness to realise this), in some cases, and due to wilful misinterpretation to support a tenuous point in others.

    However I agree with the point that the author felt it was significant that these two people regarded it as such. We might dismiss the one on the scene for various reasons but Anduin is a largely calm figure and whilst empathetic he is one of the more rational characters and is not given to hyperbole. So by putting the thought in his mind, the author is saying that this "reasonable person" believes it is genocide. You have a much stronger argument for genocide accepting it as a described thought, ironically, than with dubious claims re narrators.

    So actually I would say if Anduin thinks it is genocide, it probably is. So thank you for the quote and discussion.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    From an English Lit perspective there's no reasonable interpretation that has it as anything other than a thought in both cases. To believe otherwise requires ignoring the context and interpretating a single sentence as "not a thought" despite the fact that following sentences clearly are thoughts. It's beyond reaching and I guarantee would get you a bad grade if you claimed it as a legit interpretation because it isn't. Will some people disagree? Yes. But that's because many people are voracious but very poor readers (and lack the self awareness to realise this), in some cases, and due to wilful misinterpretation to support a tenuous point in others.

    However I agree with the point that the author felt it was significant that these two people regarded it as such. We might dismiss the one on the scene for various reasons but Anduin is a largely calm figure and whilst empathetic he is one of the more rational characters and is not given to hyperbole. So by putting the thought in his mind, the author is saying that this "reasonable person" believes it is genocide. You have a much stronger argument for genocide accepting it as a described thought, ironically, than with dubious claims re narrators.

    So actually I would say if Anduin thinks it is genocide, it probably is. So thank you for the quote and discussion.
    Heh, I've had this discussion the other way round with a different short story once, so I'll be sure to quote you if that ever comes up again ^^
    And I agree, that it's a thought. I'm not sure if I agree that Anduin wouldn't think of it as genocide if it wasn't, but I'm sure he and most others present would feel it to be, just because they can't make any sense of it and nothing but at least an attempt at genocide can explain burning that tree from their perspective. Everyone emotionally involved would see it as such, and the people there all are, as are we supposed to be when we read that story.
    If we agree to 'it's genocide' from our omniscient reader (and player) position is another thing and I guess that is what's up to debate on these forums.

    But I'll leave it as that now, because I think even if the Nightelves were a hard sell to get into Warcraft, simply making them go extinct and taking them out again would be an even harder sell and so I guess this is kind of a little off topic ^^

  6. #126
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    But I'll leave it as that now, because I think even if the Nightelves were a hard sell to get into Warcraft, simply making them go extinct and taking them out again would be an even harder sell and so I guess this is kind of a little off topic ^^
    Nah actually goes with the topic, that is the main reason for pushing the current plotline with the nelves, the current team want them to be in the position of the high elves after Arthas attacked their homeland, they need their niche to be filled by humans, now we have fat human druids that surely will replace malfurion and the cenarion circle and the strang women surely will be lead by Jaina and female KT with some lordaerian off-shot.

    Basically less Eldars and more Imperium, but this human faction is more boring that watching the paint dry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    "This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme ..." is not a description of what she feels but the context why she feels what she is feeling.

    But whatever, make up your own headcanon about this, I don't care.
    @Eurhetemec I agree with Hellspawn here. You have to also have to look at the context. Characters in game Astarrii , like Tyrande and Anduin, theyve been involved with the whole war, they have a first ha d experience of what was lost, who they lost. They dont have eyes everywhere, but the story was detailed enough and the night elf defenders know it was a genocide.

    They evacuated those in Ashenvale to Darkshore and the Teldrassil. Those who stayed on to fight were vastly outnumbered and though they fought hard, they did not survive. Teldrassil where most civilians were evacuated to was then burnt to the ground, with only a few people saved.

    Tyra de comments there are now very few night elves left in the world. They may not know every detail...if blizzard wants some more refugees to have survived somehow by some miracle or magic, they will reveal later, those characters eont know. But we shouldnt assume this is the case until it happens.

    For now, as far as we know, it is a genocide event.

    Blizzard better do an incredible comeback story for the night elves after all theyve put them through, starting from the very first invasion of the Legion that needed their legendary civilisation

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    For now, as far as we know, it is a genocide event.
    I actually agree, if you've followed my posts.

    However Hellspawn's logic was completely wrong, and relied on intentionally ignoring how how English writing works, and misinterpreting things which were clearly character thoughts as "author statements" (a largely nonsensical concept in this context), which is, as I said, absolutely ridiculous and the kind of thing that would get you a D or E in English Lit or Lang, and rightly so. So, you shouldn't agree with his logic.

    If you correctly understand the text though, you can see that Anduin is thinking that it is genocide. Anduin, as I mentioned, is sensible, level-headed, and not given to overstatement or exaggeration (very much unlike almost everyone else involved in the situation on all sides - I can't think of a non-Pandaren who is more level-headed, off the top of my head). So following better logic than willful misinterpretations of the passage, we can see that if Anduin thinks it's genocide, on the balance of probabilities, it probably is genocide, there for it is reasonable to call it such.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Blizzard better do an incredible comeback story for the night elves after all theyve put them through, starting from the very first invasion of the Legion that needed their legendary civilisation
    Sorry, they're not Horde, therefore their function in WoW is to be beaten shitless by primitives and scum when they're not fawning on human potential.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Sorry, they're not Horde, therefore their function in WoW is to be beaten shitless by primitives and scum when they're not fawning on human potential.
    I rofl'd, but it is true...even now with the horde firm favourites for the elder game, the pendulum hasn't swung in any noticeable favour to the alliance, esp those not human.

    Still waiting tho

  11. #131
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Sorry, they're not Horde, therefore their function in WoW is to be beaten shitless by primitives and scum when they're not fawning on human potential.
    If this writing is Horde favoritism then the alliance can have that favoritism.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I actually agree, if you've followed my posts.

    However Hellspawn's logic was completely wrong, and relied on intentionally ignoring how how English writing works, and misinterpreting things which were clearly character thoughts as "author statements" (a largely nonsensical concept in this context), which is, as I said, absolutely ridiculous and the kind of thing that would get you a D or E in English Lit or Lang, and rightly so. So, you shouldn't agree with his logic.

    If you correctly understand the text though, you can see that Anduin is thinking that it is genocide. Anduin, as I mentioned, is sensible, level-headed, and not given to overstatement or exaggeration (very much unlike almost everyone else involved in the situation on all sides - I can't think of a non-Pandaren who is more level-headed, off the top of my head). So following better logic than willful misinterpretations of the passage, we can see that if Anduin thinks it's genocide, on the balance of probabilities, it probably is genocide, there for it is reasonable to call it such.
    Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I'll also add Tyrande weighing in with her comment that there too few night elves left, also a subjective statement, but lends weight to the other two characters and the narrative. And given her station, experience, age, wisdom and calling - if anyone would assess a situation correctly and speak truly, it would be her, not to mention she has access to a Goddess.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    If this writing is Horde favoritism then the alliance can have that favoritism.
    Did I say the writing was good? No, just that they prefer to write for Horde.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I rofl'd, but it is true...even now with the horde firm favourites for the elder game, the pendulum hasn't swung in any noticeable favour to the alliance, esp those not human.

    Still waiting tho
    It's because Alliance victories are mentioned in passing in one line of the latest shitty book, while Horde victories get cinematics, game updates, marching bands, and skywriters.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    The genocide is mentioned again in the Novella. It is a line between Tyrande speaking and Anduin thinking, but it doesn't seem to be only a thought as in Astarii's quote.
    Instead it'd be the other description of a character's opinions that I referenced...

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Did I say the writing was good? No, just that they prefer to write for Horde.

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    It's because Alliance victories are mentioned in passing in one line of the latest shitty book, while Horde victories get cinematics, game updates, marching bands, and skywriters.
    That was my perception of most of wow, especially cata, where you had to think about it to figure out the alliance didn't do that bad, but you felt so much more empowered on the horde.. and it made me wonder.. who thought it was a good idea to have only half of your playerbase feel good about stuff??

    It was a terrible idea, I get hey were trying to boos the horde profile and numbers, but my cata that horde had already caught up and was overtaking the alliance as most played, you'd have thought that empowering roles would be written for pretty much ever race.. I mean, it's not high high all the time, i'ts lows and highs, so it puzzles me how many lows the night elves had, and the complete lack of hights, - and they were a very well loved and desired race.

    I mean if a race capturest he imagination of huge swathes of your player base, even if you stick it in the popular faction and have to cool on them for awhile, surely it's in your best interest to do good by them and do them jjustice - so un-necessary to shoot yourself in the foot.. they have a role and part to play as a major race, and WC3 showed how well that worked -- it's not as if you have to wonder whether night elves being great or powerful or competent works - it does.. wotA - trilogy, WC3, those descriptions.. we all lappe them up, and we liked it.

    But what they have now.. it's just disappointing and is souring everything I touch that is Warcraft, bleeding the fun out of it.. I can't help but notice all the mistakes and errors iw as willing to overlook before.

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