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  1. #41
    I blame the FDA and the prescribing doctors more than the pharmacy company.
    There's no scraps in my scrap book

  2. #42
    @PACOX on a few of your other points. This isn't nothing but a bandaid. It's how you set precedent and sue all the manufacturers who had shady business practices. Which then, hopefully, leads to meaningful regulation being created that helps prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Got to earn his turnips.

  3. #43
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    Yes, it is something that happened.

    Town of 2900 people, received almost 21 million opioid pills between 2006 and 2016. Doesn't sound too bad right? 2.1 million pills per year? That is close to 7300 pills a person over that 10 year period. https://www.vox.com/science-and-heal...inia-shipments

    How bout a town of 392 that got 9 million pills in a 2 YEAR period? Same article.

    The fact that shipping companies sent them the pills and didn't report it, and the manufacturers, sent the pills to the distributors and didn't say anything, then yeah it is on the distributor and the manufacturer.
    See above. Primary parties at fault are the colluding pharmacists and doctors, the DEA and the distributing companies are at fault for negligence, and the drug company is pretty much uninvolved because at that level you have one distribution company warehouse servicing potentially hundreds of pharmacies meaning that even large spikes are absorbed in the mass.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    And those were pill mills. Where reciprocating doctors and pharmacies (sometimes in the same building) deliberately place massive orders based on falsified prescriptions to the drug distribution company and the DEA agents assigned to the area do not make an effort to look into the matter. A massive problem, one that specifically has inflicted massive damage in West Virginia and Ohio. But also not the scenario Orbitus described, and does not involve drug companies like Purdue in any way as they were not involved on any level.
    They were sending the medication. They're basically the cartel to the street level dealer. They were also giving incentives to these people to continue to do this shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Got to earn his turnips.

  5. #45
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    They were sending the medication. They're basically the cartel to the street level dealer. They were also giving incentives to these people to continue to do this shit.
    Incorrect. The drug company manufactures the product, sends it to the distribution company, who then sends it to warehouses based on expected load, and then sends it to pharmacies and doctors offices. Drug companies sell on much, much larger levels than rural towns.

    As for incentives, if they existed they would have been irrelevant in the larger scheme of the pill mills express intent to violate the law and make massive amounts of money. A drug rep saying that hydromorphone spray for a sprained ankle is a good choice and giving a lap dance to push the point is a massive, MASSIVE fucking problem. That said, it's kind of a drop in the bucket compared to what the pill mills were doing.

    You can even see that in the article. The law enforcement and city counsel didn't talk to the drug companies. They talked to the drug distribution company.

  6. #46
    Just had surgery monday and was told I had a prescription to pick up. Thought it was anti-biotics, but nope... oxys :/

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    No, because they aren't the ones giving it out to people. Blame the doctors.
    they are required to monitor the usage and report suspicious activity, instead they ignored it even with a town of 12000 people giving out millions of pills a month

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    No, because they aren't the ones giving it out to people. Blame the doctors.
    We are blaming the doctors.... and the makers of the medicine who outright lied about how addictive it was and even tried to redefine addiction to sell more pills. If you do not think they are to blame you do not know the story.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Incorrect. The drug company manufactures the product, sends it to the distribution company, who then sends it to warehouses based on expected load, and then sends it to pharmacies and doctors offices. Drug companies sell on much, much larger levels than rural towns.

    As for incentives, if they existed they would have been irrelevant in the larger scheme of the pill mills express intent to violate the law and make massive amounts of money. A drug rep saying that hydromorphone spray for a sprained ankle is a good choice and giving a lap dance to push the point is a massive, MASSIVE fucking problem. That said, it's kind of a drop in the bucket compared to what the pill mills were doing.

    You can even see that in the article. The law enforcement and city counsel didn't talk to the drug companies. They talked to the drug distribution company.
    Sorry, but the manufacturer is responsible for tracking this stuff in addition to the distributor. And we know they do because they’re the ones who gave doctors free vacations and shit for how good they were at selling the heroin they were making false claims about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Got to earn his turnips.

  10. #50
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    No, because they aren't the ones giving it out to people. Blame the doctors.
    When a drug rep flat out lies about the results of studies to get a doctor to prefer a particular treatment, they are to blame. This is the primary vector with which drug companies are interfering with actual patient care. When doctors are being fed lies like, say, hycodan (vicodin specialized into a cough syrup) is a good treatment for the common cold, and they do that to enough people, they're going to get some bites. And people who should never have been treated with medication meant for if you're basically coughing to the point where blood starts spraying out will get it for the yearly sniffles.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    No, because they aren't the ones giving it out to people. Blame the doctors.
    Thats like arresting the street corner dealers instead of the producers. They lie about it's effects, flood small towns with millions of pills and get doctors to prescribe them via bribery or just deception. Stop defending corporations who are murdering people with their products.

    That reasoning alone is why the US is fucked beyond repair.

  12. #52
    Over 9000! Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    As much as we wanna blame Purdue and Doctors for this epidemic, the real underlying issue is that Americans are over worked and underpaid. Their rent is going up and their pay isn't. This causes stress that won't go away and people turn to Opioids. The economy is in a real shit storm for the main street and the media spins this against against Big Pharma, which they should cause they're taking advantage of people but there's a bigger issue that people are ignoring and that is the economy for the main-street is shit right now.

    Also, shutting down OxyContin will just reemerge again as another name as it has been done in the past. We should just regulate these substances to limit how long a patient is allowed to be on them. People will always make excuses to get their hands on these drugs, and it's usually back pain.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Sorry, but the manufacturer is responsible for tracking this stuff in addition to the distributor. And we know they do because they’re the ones who gave doctors free vacations and shit for how good they were at selling the heroin they were making false claims about.
    You are very clearly conflating two separate, albeit both horrible, issues. And you're doing this because you don't have a comprehensive grasp of how the process works, and want to push the argument with more moral outrage. The are multiple failings across the entire industry that have led to the opioid epidemic. Everyone is at fault. Government, drug companies, pharmacies, doctors, distribution companies, the news, community leaders, insurance companies. But no single party is at fault for every issue that contributed to the epidemic. And the scenario you're discussing, pill mills. is in terms of responsibility pharmacist=doctor>distribution company>DEA>drug company>everyone else.

  14. #54
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    @PACOX on a few of your other points. This isn't nothing but a bandaid. It's how you set precedent and sue all the manufacturers who had shady business practices. Which then, hopefully, leads to meaningful regulation being created that helps prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future.
    Its a bandaid because the company is only part of the problem. The FDA has to approve the medication, that's after they know full well how addictive the medications are. Doctors have to be versed on the pro, con, interactions, and side effects. The doctor or pharmacy should be advising the patient how to properly take the medication.

    There's gross negligence happening on multiple levels. Drugs like oxytocin aren't bad on their own, they actually help a lot of people in chronic pain, the problem is with people being over prescribed, doctors taking kickbacks, manufacturers offering kick backs, the FDA doing all type of fucked up shit.

    Without actual reform nothing changes. It's definitely not going to help the addicts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    Thats like arresting the street corner dealers instead of the producers. They lie about it's effects, flood small towns with millions of pills and get doctors to prescribe them via bribery or just deception. Stop defending corporations who are murdering people with their products.

    That reasoning alone is why the US is fucked beyond repair.
    But we do go after street dealers, and hard. Hell how many are federal for some weed? Street dealers are held responsible for their product if it was laced by their source without their knowledge.

    Doctors have a lot more info about what they are pushing and supposed to be held to a higher standard. How come we don't meet bad doctors with the same energy as a street dealer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Just had surgery monday and was told I had a prescription to pick up. Thought it was anti-biotics, but nope... oxys :/
    I had an OP not too long ago. 30 percs with the option to refill at my follow up. They actually looked at me funny when I said I wasn't taking them and didn't want anymore. They only cost me $2 l and couldn't do anything for my pain that ibuprofen can't. I didn't take them. If I wanted to be grimey I be part of the problem and make $10 a pill easily.

  15. #55
    You are damned regardless. The greater access to narcotic pain killers has caused some to turn to heroine and other stronger substances or even to overdose on pills from a pharmacy, but the new regulations enacted by several states have lead to people genuinely in need of the medications to be cut off by their doctors who are in fear of retribution from people like those suing Purdue Pharma. Ironically many of the patients who rely on these medications are themselves turning to heroine and other substances once they have been denied prescriptions.

    There is a delicate balance to be maintained. The pendulum swung to far in one direction leading to over utilization of these medications and now the pendulum is swinging towards under-utilization. Either way people will suffer.

  16. #56
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khelek View Post
    You are damned regardless. The greater access to narcotic pain killers has caused some to turn to heroine and other stronger substances or even to overdose on pills from a pharmacy, but the new regulations enacted by several states have lead to people genuinely in need of the medications to be cut off by their doctors who are in fear of retribution from people like those suing Purdue Pharma. Ironically many of the patients who rely on these medications are themselves turning to heroine and other substances once they have been denied prescriptions.

    There is a delicate balance to be maintained. The pendulum swung to far in one direction leading to over utilization of these medications and now the pendulum is swinging towards under-utilization. Either way people will suffer.
    Exactly. Meanwhile marijuana that would a safer alternative between strong opioids and OTCs (that fuck up your liver if you're taking them for chronic pain) is heavily resisted by the Fed.

    Pain management in the US that just isn't 'throw some oxy at it' is weak.

  17. #57
    The Undying Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Sure if you want to drive up the cost of pain medication all in some bullshit misguided crusade to join unqualified easily influenced people generally being manipulated by bullshit sure.

    Controlling pain for most people not having an issue following instructions is very important. And tea leaves and placebo bullshit isn’t going to do it.

    A lot of this is drug companies and doctors prescribing. But most of this has to do with people making choice. Also this horse shit idea of going after doctors especially over anyone else is just stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Exactly. Meanwhile marijuana that would a safer alternative between strong opioids and OTCs (that fuck up your liver if you're taking them for chronic pain) is heavily resisted by the Fed.

    Pain management in the US that just isn't 'throw some oxy at it' is weak.

    No it hasn’t people just believe this nonsense this nonsense which is at the heart of a lot of this. Like I said very much like anti vaccination bullshit.

    People without medical degrees or any qualifications whatsoever other than natural medicine is the only way. Guess what hemlock is also natural and smoking it will kill you.
    "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  18. #58
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Sure if you want to drive up the cost of pain medication all in some bullshit misguided crusade to join unqualified easily influenced people generally being manipulated by bullshit sure.

    Controlling pain for most people not having an issue following instructions is very important. And tea leaves and placebo bullshit isn’t going to do it.

    A lot of this is drug companies and doctors prescribing. But most of this has to do with people making choice. Also this horse shit idea of going after doctors especially over anyone else is just stupid.

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    No it hasn’t people just believe this nonsense this nonsense which is at the heart of a lot of this. Like I said very much like anti vaccination bullshit.

    People without medical degrees or any qualifications whatsoever other than natural medicine is the only way. Guess what hemlock is also natural and smoking it will kill you.
    I'm not sure what you mean. That weed isn't a analgesic or that pain management hasn't fallen to the wayside?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean. That weed isn't a analgesic or that pain management hasn't fallen to the wayside?
    From a pharmacists perspective, the problem with the claims about weed and pain is that it is essentially based on small case studies and self reporting, as opposed to the massive population scale studies that FDA approved medications undergo. Admittedly, that is largely because there is a disproportionate amount of resistance to allowing such studies to take place, in terms of legality and funding.

    That said.. it's something with minimal side effects and possible benefit. So in exact medical terms, why the hell not at the very least it won't make anything worse.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I had an OP not too long ago. 30 percs with the option to refill at my follow up. They actually looked at me funny when I said I wasn't taking them and didn't want anymore. They only cost me $2 l and couldn't do anything for my pain that ibuprofen can't. I didn't take them. If I wanted to be grimey I be part of the problem and make $10 a pill easily.
    What is the deal with them doing this? Do doctors get some kind of commission?

    Earlier this year, i saw my new physician who tried telling me I had depression, prescribed me some anti-depressants after telling me he was the professional and was upset the next time I saw him and told him I hadn't taken them.

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