How come BfA is worse than Legion?

[rohoz]

I was there then, and yes it was aggravating to attune someone new through SSC/TK for example; it still felt meaningful. The game was undoubtedly in a better state when they used the RPG formula of climbing the ladder of success vs the new diablo 3 style loot systems of "everyones a winner, just determine how much u wanna win".

One is a real MMO RPG and the current game is an MMO ARPG. It's more diablo 3 today than everquest, which is a huge reason why so many have fled current wow for greener pastures or will prefer vanilla wow

- - - Updated - - -



the legendary's of legion only didn't work for alt-aholics. People who played one character only, like myself, had all the legendary's WAY too early in the expac. I'd argue having all the legendary's was a bigger issue for end game raiders than "not getting my favorite piece because i've been too busy on alt #8"

which is another thing that the playerbase made happen.
funny how that works.

And i vehemently disagree. Attuning people was a waste of time. Going back to farmed/cleared content was a waste of time. "ladder of success" is cool and all, but what about the millions who can't see the first rung? Granted I think LFR is an abomination, but do you really believe to yourself that the game was in a better state when the content was 100% designed for 2% of the playerbase if so much?

[justandulas]

which is another thing that the playerbase made happen.
funny how that works.

And i vehemently disagree. Attuning people was a waste of time. Going back to farmed/cleared content was a waste of time. "ladder of success" is cool and all, but what about the millions who can't see the first rung? Granted I think LFR is an abomination, but do you really believe to yourself that the game was in a better state when the content was 100% designed for 2% of the playerbase if so much?

Yes. 100%. People logged on and strove to be better to be like the guys in t3 and t6.

This doesn't happen today for a multitude of reasons (different difficulties, and transmog makes showing off new gear impossible).

I couldn't disagree with you more about the ladder of success, it's why successful RPG's are timeless while ARPG tend to grow old very quickly.

Look at d2 vs d3 for another comparison.

Believe it or not, some games should have "have's and have not's". It fuels ambition. When you make a game "one size fits all" it appeals to nobody.

WoW was healthier when it was more hardcore and the more casual they make it, the less people want to play it. Consider it death by a thousand cuts of QoL and nerfing the game.

Every time they try to appease the lowest common denominator of gamer; they lose more than they gain. Wonder why that is?

[Depakote]

Were Artifacts merely a blindside? I mean, it was a core feature of the game. Levelling up the Ashbringer was probably my favorite progression in WoW. I'm a casual player, but I loved the system so much, I unlocked every skin. The system was really solid and rewarding, and BfA totally missed the mark on what made it so.

That's not anywhere close to what I said.

[rohoz]

Yes. 100%. People logged on and strove to be better to be like the guys in t3 and t6.

This doesn't happen today for a multitude of reasons (different difficulties, and transmog makes showing off new gear impossible).

I couldn't disagree with you more about the ladder of success, it's why successful RPG's are timeless while ARPG tend to grow old very quickly.

Look at d2 vs d3 for another comparison.

Believe it or not, some games should have "have's and have not's". It fuels ambition. When you make a game "one size fits all" it appeals to nobody.

WoW was healthier when it was more hardcore and the more casual they make it, the less people want to play it. Consider it death by a thousand cuts of QoL and nerfing the game.

Every time they try to appease the lowest common denominator of gamer; they lose more than they gain. Wonder why that is?

Seeing people in T3 actually *didn't* get people to step up and do harder content.
Where do you think the 2% meme originated? Most people in vanilla over it's 2+ year lifespan basically sat around and did nothing. Raids? Nah. Maybe ubrs. A lot of wsg when you could get free epics.

Do you really think D2 isn't an action rpg?

If you think "healthy" is the same relative percentage of the playerbase doing meaningful content, and 90% doing fuckall in 0 difficulty 5mans, sure. Because that's what happened from launch to mid cata, when they introduced lfr. Now the shitty kids do 5mans and lfr.

[roboscorcher]

the legendary's of legion only didn't work for alt-aholics. People who played one character only, like myself, had all the legendary's WAY too early in the expac. I'd argue having all the legendary's was a bigger issue for end game raiders than "not getting my favorite piece because i've been too busy on alt #8"

Agreed. Preach was calling these issues out during the beta, and he was correct. Once you could target them, they became much better. As a blacksmith, I also appreciated having crafted legendaries that made my profession profitable and fun. I would be OK with bringing them back, with a better targeting system (they have too much power for RNG).

[justandulas]

Seeing people in T3 actually *didn't* get people to step up and do harder content.
Where do you think the 2% meme originated? Most people in vanilla over it's 2+ year lifespan basically sat around and did nothing. Raids? Nah. Maybe ubrs. A lot of wsg when you could get free epics.

Do you really think D2 isn't an action rpg?

If you think "healthy" is the same relative percentage of the playerbase doing meaningful content, and 90% doing fuckall in 0 difficulty 5mans, sure. Because that's what happened from launch to mid cata, when they introduced lfr. Now the shitty kids do 5mans and lfr.

D2 is much more an rpg than d3. Which is why d2 is more beloved, more played over time and regarded as a timeless classic while d3... well, is not.

And yes, seeing people decked out made you want to do BT or bwl all the more. A healthy game is a game that’s growing and it turns out people like challenge and to fail sometimes. It makes the rewards that much sweeter.

There’s no feeling like that in current wow. They shower you with gear, there’s multiple difficulties of all the content trivializing it beyond repair, and even the gear is just boring recolors and +\- stats

We can agree to disagree but the game was better to me with much less QoL

Never try to appease the lowest common denominator of gamer. Always aim for the middle of the top

Wow was never better or healthier as a title than when it copied Everquest. When it started appeasing scrubs to appeal to diablo 3 crowd; it lost its soul and player base

[rohoz]

D2 is much more an rpg than d3. Which is why d2 is more beloved, more played over time and regarded as a timeless classic while d3... well, is not.

And yes, seeing people decked out made you want to do BT or bwl all the more. A healthy game is a game that’s growing and it turns out people like challenge and to fail sometimes. It makes the rewards that much sweeter.

There’s no feeling like that in current wow. They shower you with gear, there’s multiple difficulties of all the content trivializing it beyond repair, and even the gear is just boring recolors and +\- stats

We can agree to disagree but the game was better to me with much less QoL

Never try to appease the lowest common denominator of gamer. Always aim for the middle of the top

Wow was never better or healthier as a title than when it copied Everquest. When it started appeasing scrubs to appeal to diablo 3 crowd; it lost its soul and player base

You're just attaching arbitrary words to genres to try to prove a point.
D2 has been an ARPG since inception. Diablo is the archetype of ARPG. If you google "arpg" the diablo franchise is the first result 9/10 times, so by saying d2 is an "rpg" and d3 is an "arpg" you make 0 fucking sense because the games are of the same franchise/genre, only difference is apm.

Wow never copied everquest, either. WoW was always EXTREMELY easy and casual friendly. Wtf are you even talking about?

[justandulas]

You're just attaching arbitrary words to genres to try to prove a point.
D2 has been an ARPG since inception. Diablo is the archetype of ARPG. If you google "arpg" the diablo franchise is the first result 9/10 times, so by saying d2 is an "rpg" and d3 is an "arpg" you make 0 fucking sense because the games are of the same franchise/genre, only difference is apm.

Wow never copied everquest, either. WoW was always EXTREMELY easy and casual friendly. Wtf are you even talking about?

You are definitely trying to twist the argument to fit your narrative.

D2 is more of an rpg than d3. That’s a fact. They stripped d3 of all its rpg mechanics and replaced it with flashy action game mechanics.

D2 May be an arpg, but it’s also an RPG. It never forgot that. D3 is more of an action game with slight rpg hints.

Secondly, vanilla wow did copy Everquest just made it more casual friendly. Proving my point too that wow WAS casual friendly even back then. I’d argue it was the most casual friendly it ever was in vanilla. Back then the game wasn’t “raid or die”. It was MORE eq than d3, but how it’s almost d3 the mmo in terms of its game and loot systems. Designed almost as a single player game in some regards rather than an mmo.

Besides, I’ve already stated we can agree to disagree if that’s how you feel.

I personally prefer the older hardcore style of WoW and it turns out a lot of people who left did too. No need to get all twisted up over a difference of opinion

[rohoz]

You are definitely trying to twist the argument to fit your narrative.

D2 is more of an rpg than d3. That’s a fact. They stripped d3 of all its rpg mechanics and replaced it with flashy action game mechanics.

D2 May be an arpg, but it’s also an RPG. It never forgot that. D3 is more of an action game with slight rpg hints.

Secondly, vanilla wow did copy Everquest just made it more casual friendly. Proving my point too that wow WAS casual friendly even back then. I’d argue it was the most casual friendly it ever was in vanilla. Back then the game wasn’t “raid or die”. It was MORE eq than d3, but how it’s almost d3 the mmo in terms of its game and loot systems. Designed almost as a single player game in some regards rather than an mmo.

Besides, I’ve already stated we can agree to disagree if that’s how you feel.

I personally prefer the older hardcore style of WoW and it turns out a lot of people who left did too. No need to get all twisted up over a difference of opinion

Google action rpg. They called games of the diablo archetype "hack and slash" for nearly 20 years.
D2 has no more/less of a story than D3. You do know you have a story before adventure mode, right? D2 and D3 are of the exact same genre just like modern and launch WoW. They are the same genre. RPG and traditional MMO.

D2: you look down over your character and smack mobs that come to you, usually in a dungeon setting
D3: you look down over your character and smack mobs that come to you, usually in a dungeon setting


WoW Launch: you join a group of 5-40 people and with tanks, healers, and designated damage dealers, you clear dungeons or fight enemy players
WoW Live: you join a group of 2-30 people and with tanks, healers, and designated damage dealers, you clear dungeons or fight enemy players

I'm not twisting anything. Higher APM and higher flexibility in the core concept doesn't suddenly make it an "action rpg" when an action rpg is a defined genre. Say it is higher paced and you can't keep up, that's fine.

D2/3 are both ARPGS, and WoW has been a traditional MMO its entire life cycle.

[roboscorcher]

That's not anywhere close to what I said.

Your words were

Legion wasn't that great to be honest. Your just blinded by the shit show that was WoD and the artifact weapons we got in Legion. This game hasn't been halfway decent since Mists of Pandaria.

and I'm arguing that Legion was great, and artifacts made it great. What am I misrepresenting about your comment?

[justandulas]

Google action rpg. They called games of the diablo archetype "hack and slash" for nearly 20 years.
D2 has no more/less of a story than D3. You do know you have a story before adventure mode, right? D2 and D3 are of the exact same genre just like modern and launch WoW. They are the same genre. RPG and traditional MMO.

D2: you look down over your character and smack mobs that come to you, usually in a dungeon setting
D3: you look down over your character and smack mobs that come to you, usually in a dungeon setting


WoW Launch: you join a group of 5-40 people and with tanks, healers, and designated damage dealers, you clear dungeons or fight enemy players
WoW Live: you join a group of 2-30 people and with tanks, healers, and designated damage dealers, you clear dungeons or fight enemy players

I'm not twisting anything. Higher APM and higher flexibility in the core concept doesn't suddenly make it an "action rpg" when an action rpg is a defined genre. Say it is higher paced and you can't keep up, that's fine.

D2/3 are both ARPGS, and WoW has been a traditional MMO its entire life cycle.

... are you trolling me or just not understanding my point? I didn't say D2 WASN'T an ARPG... i said it was MORE of an RPG than D3. D3 forgot all of it's RPG mechanics in favor of dumbed down action and a disney story line.

D2, while an action rpg, DID have heavy RPG mechanics. EXAMPLE: The talent tree's alone, no respecs, PVP, death penalties, and many more examples.

D3 is just all big gun action pew pew pew pew. Zzzzzz

WoW launch: you NEEDED a group to have success and you needed to be social. If youre a jerk, or a player who doesn't want to group... you don't succeed. It's a GROUP focused game. Danger was around every corner and pulling too many MOBS can mean death even while questing.

WOW today: You can que for legit any content you want solo, there's cross realm so server rep means absolutely NOTHING, you don't have to be social to anyone, you can complete anything in game other than M+ and raids solo, you have to actively go out of your way to try and die in retail it's almost impossible outside of M+ and raids, and shall we even mention the abomination of wpvp these days?

Look, i get it you like BFA and i'm not knocking you or BFA...

i'm just stating the FACT that when WoW launched, it was more EQ than Diablo. Now, it's more Diablo than EQ and that turns people off.

When i play an MMO, i want group content not qued contend. It's almost like a parody of what an MMORPG should be.

[Velerios]

D2/3 are both ARPGS, and WoW has been a traditional MMO its entire life cycle.

Yes and no. Character progress stopped sadly in WoD (between 100 and 120 you have 0 in your character progression. Removal of all stats except the ones that your char need also made it far more blant.

For me, character progress is important in an rpg. Sadly it always regressed with the pruning of abilities here and there.

It feels clinically sterile. But you are absolutely right about Diablo 2+3. Sorry, but Diablo 2 and lore... i felt that diablo 3 had far more lore than diablo 2 had. Gameplay it felt in 3 also better. It was just ruined with the RMAH, bad loot progression and not enough replayability.

[Zenfoldor]

Legion was and is much better than BFA. Legion is my favorite xpak. If I had to compare Legion to BFA, I would say Legion is the best WoW has been and BFA is the worst.

Why is it worse?

1. Gameplay - This is known as class design. Adding the GCD screwed up most classes(all but monks?) and many of the Legiondary skills were removed on top of some traditional skills. The pace of the game feels slower and gameplay feels too easy to optimize. The gameplay was perfect in Legion and again in MoP for much of the time, so I would suggest reviewing how the game played during Timeless Isles, or how a fire mage played during early Legion. Balance is something I try not to mention, but there is a disturbing trend of selective limitation on aoe, such as "only hits the first five targets." This is an intentional decision to prevent certain classes from being OP in certain content, but it nerfs fun, and indeed it doesn't nerf it for every class, so you end up with non-aoe specs shunned from timed mythic+.

2. Reward Structure - In Legion, there was a clear and defined long term reward for completing content. This was Legiondaries. Legiondaries were removed, which is okay, however they were replaced with NOTHING. Also, set bonuses, class hall progress, mage tower, and artifact power were all available in Legion as intermediate term goals. There are no long term or intermediate term goals in BFA. On top of that, in Legion long term goals were based on completing traditional content, like daily heroics, emissary missions, or lfr. In BFA, that content was made completely irrelevant. They added new content in the form of islands and warfronts. This content is very weak, but that isn't necessarily important. What is important is that even in the new content, rewards are directly given instead of earned via a goal. The goal is simply to wait for X warfront quest to be available, accept quest, and complete warfront once. There is no goal, and no dedication even in the slightest, to earn this reward, so no matter how good it is, it feels unrewarding. I strongly suggest adding new long term and intermediate term goals in WoW. I would prefer the long term goal remove the problems Legiondaries had, but also maintain the structure that allows the long term goal to continue even after you've gotten your preferred item. "Collect them all" would be my suggested phrase for long term goal planning, but not pets, long term and intermediate term goals work best when they have a direct impact on gameplay, or even throughput.

My last note on reward structure is that Raids have become obsolete and Mythic+ has become the optimal end game. While mythic+ is great for the game and a great idea, devaluing raids is not. Raids should be the ultimate end game, but even if they are simply a competitor, that is better than what we have in BFA, which is raids becoming completely irrelevant, and mythic raiding along with that whole scene fading away. If there was one trend I would try to stop in development of WoW, that would be it. Make raiding at least competitive with mythic+ and actually it should be more rewarding without question imho. If mythic+ is the true end game, that sucks, but blizzard must control a raider.io equivalent for those people who keep playing.

Why did they make the decisions that caused these problems?

I have no idea. I could speculate about who worked on what, but I would just be speculating.

[justandulas]

Yes and no. Character progress stopped sadly in WoD (between 100 and 120 you have 0 in your character progression. Removal of all stats except the ones that your char need also made it far more blant.

For me, character progress is important in an rpg. Sadly it always regressed with the pruning of abilities here and there.

It feels clinically sterile. But you are absolutely right about Diablo 2+3. Sorry, but Diablo 2 and lore... i felt that diablo 3 had far more lore than diablo 2 had. Gameplay it felt in 3 also better. It was just ruined with the RMAH, bad loot progression and not enough replayability.

Even in diablo 2, you had real talent points and stat points that you assigned when you leveled up. There wasn't really respecs so you were who you were on that character forever.

In d3, there's no talent progression tree's and there's no stat increases as you level (thus removing character customization and unique builds).

Diablo 2 and d3 are both ARPG, but one is an action game with heavy RPG mechanics, and the other is an action game with such a small amount of RPG it may as well be considered parody.

I do think d3 plays better gameplay wise, but i'd rather play d2 because of the progression systems and RPG mechanics. One is a timeless classic to me, and the other was a fun action game i played a few times and never again.

[rohoz]

... are you trolling me or just not understanding my point? I didn't say D2 WASN'T an ARPG... i said it was MORE of an RPG than D3. D3 forgot all of it's RPG mechanics in favor of dumbed down action and a disney story line.

D2, while an action rpg, DID have heavy RPG mechanics. EXAMPLE: The talent tree's alone, no respecs, PVP, death penalties, and many more examples.

D3 is just all big gun action pew pew pew pew. Zzzzzz

WoW launch: you NEEDED a group to have success and you needed to be social. If youre a jerk, or a player who doesn't want to group... you don't succeed. It's a GROUP focused game. Danger was around every corner and pulling too many MOBS can mean death even while questing.

WOW today: You can que for legit any content you want solo, there's cross realm so server rep means absolutely NOTHING, you don't have to be social to anyone, you can complete anything in game other than M+ and raids solo, you have to actively go out of your way to try and die in retail it's almost impossible outside of M+ and raids, and shall we even mention the abomination of wpvp these days?

Look, i get it you like BFA and i'm not knocking you or BFA...

i'm just stating the FACT that when WoW launched, it was more EQ than Diablo. Now, it's more Diablo than EQ and that turns people off.

When i play an MMO, i want group content not qued contend. It's almost like a parody of what an MMORPG should be.

You know you don't have to queue for content, right? Like... all of the social institutions you used prior still exist (and there are more)

Wow now and wow back then are still the same game in the same genre. You still progress your character, you still gain levels, you still get gear to do stuff


You lot are fixated on this 1 talent point per level horseshit. That's not and will never be the defining characteristic of an role-playing game.

[justandulas]

You know you don't have to queue for content, right? Like... all of the social institutions you used prior still exist (and there are more)

Wow now and wow back then are still the same game in the same genre. You still progress your character, you still gain levels, you still get gear to do stuff


You lot are fixated on this 1 talent point per level horseshit. That's not and will never be the defining characteristic of an role-playing game.

Having the cross realm exist at all with the ques removes servers social elements. This isn't my opinion, this is pretty much fact at this point in wow's life cycle. Only social interactions really exist in guilds and that's it.

When's the last time you had to group with a random to beat a world quest because you COULDN'T otherwise? Not bfa.

They are not the same game or the same genre TBH. Vanilla WoW is an MMO RPG modeled after games like EQ where it's social based RPG and if you aren't social and don't like dangerous RPG mechanics, you won't succeed.

Current wow is an MMO ARPG, almost a parody of what original wow was. You can succeed solo and don't ever have to say a single word to anyone and can see all the content.

1 talent per level isn't even something i mentioned, but now that you mention it go take a look at current WoW's talent tree's, then compare it to vanilla wow and then Diablo 3. Tell me which it has more in common with. If it's vanilla WoW, you're right. if it's diablo 3, i'm right.

[Depakote]

Your words were



and I'm arguing that Legion was great, and artifacts made it great. What am I misrepresenting about your comment?

Don't have time to reply to this right now but I will eventually. Sorry. :/

[rohoz]

Having the cross realm exist at all with the ques removes servers social elements. This isn't my opinion, this is pretty much fact at this point in wow's life cycle. Only social interactions really exist in guilds and that's it.

When's the last time you had to group with a random to beat a world quest because you COULDN'T otherwise? Not bfa.

They are not the same game or the same genre TBH. Vanilla WoW is an MMO RPG modeled after games like EQ where it's social based RPG and if you aren't social and don't like dangerous RPG mechanics, you won't succeed.

Current wow is an MMO ARPG, almost a parody of what original wow was. You can succeed solo and don't ever have to say a single word to anyone and can see all the content.

1 talent per level isn't even something i mentioned, but now that you mention it go take a look at current WoW's talent tree's, then compare it to vanilla wow and then Diablo 3. Tell me which it has more in common with. If it's vanilla WoW, you're right. if it's diablo 3, i'm right.

That's because you are unable to make friends.
I have several friends across several servers mainly because b-net allows that 1), 2) because I'm not a fucking potato in dungeons, 3) i can play with them cross server
It's not an action rpg, it is still a traditional rpg. It is still based around socializing. You can't succeed solo, i mean, if you think lfr is success, i guess. But you couldve leveled solo in vanilla as well, so I don't see your point.

Look at current wow's UI. If it looks more like diablo 3, you win. If it looks more like vanilla wow, I win.

[justandulas]

That's because you are unable to make friends.
I have several friends across several servers mainly because b-net allows that 1), 2) because I'm not a fucking potato in dungeons, 3) i can play with them cross server
It's not an action rpg, it is still a traditional rpg. It is still based around socializing. You can't succeed solo, i mean, if you think lfr is success, i guess. But you couldve leveled solo in vanilla as well, so I don't see your point.

Look at current wow's UI. If it looks more like diablo 3, you win. If it looks more like vanilla wow, I win.

You don't know anything about me? I'm typically the most popular guy in every game/guild i'm in, i have more friends in game than not... well not in game anymore cuz everyone quit BFA.

Secondly, it IS an arpg and not a traditional MMO RPG.

I notice you completely brought up talent points and then avoided the question, and did a classic "what aboutism" as your argument. /eyeroll. Anyone who goes for whataboutism has lost the argument.

Wow's UI is outdated, but notice how they've been streamlining it more and more until each class doesn't even have enough abilities to fill their bars in the encounters? Remind you of another game?

Cross server hurt the game more than it helped IMHO. It removed the social aspect of servers.

You lost this debate though the minute you pulled "whataboutism" and ran away from the talent tree question that YOU brought up.

Have a good day

[rohoz]

You don't know anything about me? I'm typically the most popular guy in every game/guild i'm in, i have more friends in game than not... well not in game anymore cuz everyone quit BFA.

Secondly, it IS an arpg and not a traditional MMO RPG.

I notice you completely brought up talent points and then avoided the question, and did a classic "what aboutism" as your argument. /eyeroll. Anyone who goes for whataboutism has lost the argument.

Wow's UI is outdated, but notice how they've been streamlining it more and more until each class doesn't even have enough abilities to fill their bars in the encounters? Remind you of another game?

Cross server hurt the game more than it helped IMHO. It removed the social aspect of servers.

You lost this debate though the minute you pulled "whataboutism" and ran away from the talent tree question that YOU brought up.

Have a good day

Rofl, you're conflating rpg systems with one type of rpg system.

Is ff9 not an rpg because you can redo your gem allocation? Is an rpg defined as a game where you cant change your mind about your points? Does that make vanilla not an rpg because you can respec? is vanilla an ARPG now? Are you just throwing out terms without knowing that they actually have a meaning outside of your headcanon?

Of course you'll leave the discussion, because you haven't had any ground to stand on from the onset.

Sure fam, whatever.

And fwiw character progression has been always tied to level. RPGS are bout char progression. Talents dont have much to do with progression, but customization.

I'm typically the most popular guy in every game/guild i'm in

Roflmao, no. Noone that types something like that with a straight face is ever, ever right. But go on

Wow's UI is outdated, but notice how they've been streamlining it more and more until each class doesn't even have enough abilities to fill their bars in the encounters? Remind you of another game?

complains about not answering questions and then tries to dodge one.

The answer was : wow's UI hasn't changed much since vanilla, so yes, I'm right.
Getting rid of old spells/outgrowing old shoes is part of character progression, is it not? is it not progression to not use Mortal strike r1 because you have mortal strike r2? Spells that were bad got removed, like mocking blow. Is it not "progression" to get rid of old, unwanted things?