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  1. #1

    It's going to be hard to get 40 dedicated raiders together...

    I remember how difficult it was on a 30k server and I don't anticipate many full servers still cruising along six months after launch. My fear is that there will be zero room for 'casual' raiding guilds (those that spend a half year in MC/ZG and then creep their way through BWL for another six months--if they even finish).

    I had a solid 50 raiders in my guild, enough to switch players out as they needed to afk and a few who didn't mind questing and such for the 3-4 hours to get their DKP if they couldn't land a spot. That said, when even one or two people left or quit the game, it was noticeable. The spreadsheets, the necessary class distribution, the required 12-16 hour/week commitment JUST for raiding. Are people really wanting to do that again or is the consensus mostly just wanting to experience some nostalgia and then go back to retail after a month or two?

    I guess what I'm saying is that I really WANT to raid Vanilla again (I actually miss MC), I loved my lock, I was solid dps and definitely put in the time. I just feel like this time around it's going to be either tank, heal or be prepared to solo for a looong time in one of the very few sustainable raiding guilds that can keep their shiz together.

  2. #2
    I didn't start playing til nearly the very end of BC but it's my understanding that Vanilla raiding was a lot easier than it is now. If true then you'll probably be fine.

  3. #3
    It will be quite a bit easier than it was back in Vanilla. Now almost everyone who will play knows what raiding is and has experienced at least some raiding. I think the biggest challenge will be people bitching and moaning because loot drops are so sparse.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    It will be quite a bit easier than it was back in Vanilla. Now almost everyone who will play knows what raiding is and has experienced at least some raiding. I think the biggest challenge will be people bitching and moaning because loot drops are so sparse.
    I agree. If you have 35 people from your guild and 5 pugs, no one in guild is gonna be happy if you let a pug get a sweet weapon drop. So ninjaing is gonna be super rampant. Even within guilds, I feel like vanilla raiding was set up so a core 10 guys or so could get super geared. I’ve always kinda assumed that the reason Nihilum was so good is they got their core super geared then recruited super geared core raiders from other guilds while periodically discarding their undergeared non core guys. There’s a story (from TBC) about Kungen taking a second version of the same shield because he wanted to have two different enchants on them, instead of giving it to an offtank who needed it.

    With raids that big and gear that sparse, there are gonna be huge problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  5. #5
    What makes you think everyone calling for classic was because they wanted to raid? It's not the only reason people play the game nor is it the only content available.

  6. #6
    Weren't the raids kind of designed about 15 or so dead weights though?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    I feel like vanilla raiding was set up so a core 10 guys or so could get super geared.
    Did you raid in Vanilla and experience that or is that just your impression? I never personally saw that because the core you needed was quite a bit bigger than 10 if you're actually going to progress.

    The problem I was talking about is that there just isn't much gear to go around compared to what people are accustomed to. My number one rogue raided every week and I remember when we were still in MC he had about half of the pieces he needed and went something like 8-10 weeks without getting a single drop. He would have received anything he needed but it just didn't drop. Is today's player going to keep putting the effort into raiding without being rewarded more regularly? I don't know.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Coramen View Post
    Weren't the raids kind of designed about 15 or so dead weights though?
    Molten Core sure. Blackwing Lair sort of. Ahn'qiraj less so.

    Good luck killing Loatheb or Gothik the Harvester with 15 dead weight players.

  9. #9
    I am Murloc! Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I think people are going to realize there is a reason 40 man raids went away. It's not 2004. People have lives, jobs, families etc and varying schedules that will make it a challenge to have the work/life schedules of 40 people align for several hours several days per week.

    If nothing else it will be like Everquest raids where you have a ton of people but not a core due to schedules, but the *guild* can raid, not necessarily all the people in it. That way if 10 people have| plans, you have 10 more ready and available.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2019-05-17 at 02:05 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Coramen View Post
    Weren't the raids kind of designed about 15 or so dead weights though?
    Of course that becomes more and more true as you get gear, but earlier on it just gives you less margin. But yeah, even good raids had at least a handful of terrible players. I don't think the people who raid in Classic are going to have a hard time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I think people are going to realize there is a reason 40 man raids went away. It's not 2004. People have lives, jobs, families etc and varying schedules that will make it a challenge to have the work/life schedules of 40 people align for several hours several days per week.
    Which is kind of funny because there are 50 raids on my BfA server and faction that raid more than anyone did in Vanilla. 40 is a PITA to coordinate because it is so many personalities but there are many more people that do significant raiding now than there was in 2004-2005.

  11. #11
    I started playing in June of 05, because of work schedule I could not raid much, had a Saturday morning MC run that we did, i remember it taking 8hrs the first few times. I would sometimes get into the late night ZG runs the guild had also. That is pretty much all the raiding I did. I had much more fun running dungeons. I was attuned for everything. Forming groups for upper ubrs just for a chance at a felstriker became a daily thing. I had a blast. I didn't need to raid the social aspect of the game at the time was enough to keep me hooked. Plus all weekend AV had its perks. Its definately a different game and many of todays warcraft players will have a hard time realizing why alot of us old school players are so nostalgic for vanilla but I have never had so much fun in the game. The most fun I had was putting together groups for the Undead Strat 45 min run. I did it mainly for deathchargers reins but I liked the timed aspect of it, almost like a precursor to challenge modes or mythic dungeons.
    Last edited by Memnok; 2019-05-17 at 02:20 AM.

  12. #12
    The issue with 40 man raiding in vanilla was dealing with the 'HR' challenge was just as important as dealing with ingame raid encounters. Ensuring your HR officer/recruiter is on the ball in keeping the raid filled up with 40 players during raid time is very important. I've seen some fairly decent/good guilds collapse back in vanilla because of circumstances (normal attrition/poaching/RL issues/conflict between members) had their numbers dropped too low and unable to get replacements for prolong period of time, which started a chain reaction for the remaining members to jump ship and killed off the guild, even though the raid was doing great progression-wise.

    Getting good people to deal with the guild HR issues can be challenge as not many people want to deal with these type of problems in a game.

  13. #13
    The worst is Naxx when you raid for over a year and the warriors you finally got outfitted with tier 3 pieces for the taunt bonus suddenly gets poached by another guild, leaving your guild with no where else to go.

  14. #14
    The only solution to this is to have 1-2 raiding days a week. And have at least 50 raiders in the guild.

    The number of guilds won't be many. But they will be very active.

  15. #15
    40 people seems chaotic as fuck but seeing as how the only people who'll really do it will be committed to the idea (plus im sure the guild leaders won't fuck with any slouches and treat it like a paying job with interviews and shit)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy
    People just want to be bullies without facing any sort of consequences or social fallout for being a bully. If you declare X as a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. person you can say or do whatever you want to them, ignoring the fact that they are a human.

  16. #16
    You can like, 30 man raids if they are actual raiders that have raid prep gear. Guilds literally just invited everyone because "A BODY" was better than nothing because personal responsibility didn't exist back then.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    It will be quite a bit easier than it was back in Vanilla. Now almost everyone who will play knows what raiding is and has experienced at least some raiding. I think the biggest challenge will be people bitching and moaning because loot drops are so sparse.
    the fights were mechanically much easier, but raiding itself was much harder, mostly because of gear and yes, people. raiding back then wasnt about playing DDR mixed with a bullet hell, it was fielding and maintaining a raid that had the gear to kill the bosses. period. ragnaros was mostly about standing there and doing damage until he died (so were most fights) but having tanks geared enough to take his hits, healers geared enough to keep the raid alive for long enough before going OOM, DPS geared enough to have enough health, and do enough damage to kill him before healers went OOM. these were the challenges of vanilla, for the most part. WoW was about working hard and having the best gear, and therefore the best character. during BWL i was the first druid on my server to get 8/8 T2, and i would attract crowds of dozens just standing in org to look at my gear. of course, by launching on 1.12, none of this will be true. rag will go down within 2 weeks of launch, as will every boss as they launch. this is why i wont be playing. sure, itll be the same content, but these decisions they have made, it will never feel the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    You can like, 30 man raids if they are actual raiders that have raid prep gear. Guilds literally just invited everyone because "A BODY" was better than nothing because personal responsibility didn't exist back then.
    maybe your guild did that. but the best guilds on every server attracted the best players. my guild in vanilla got horde side first kills of every boss for a reason, and probably would have been server first if alliance didnt have such an advantage.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    It's not 2004. People have lives, jobs, families etc and varying schedules that will make it a challenge to have the work/life schedules of 40 people align for several hours several days per week.
    Wait, do you believe these things didn't exist EXACTLY like they do now?

    Because they did exist exactly as they do now, and people were somehow able to magically find time to do 40 man raids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I love how many people comment on threads like this who never actually played Vanilla. Or, who think that because their life changed and THEY can't play like they used to, it means NO ONE can possibly play like that either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teffi
    You play a game for 20+ hours a week and you're "an addict".
    You sit on your fat ass eating nachos and watching men in tight pants throw a ball around for 20+ hours a week and you're "a man".
    Sometimes, I just can't even:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx
    It's just an assertion, so it's neither logical nor illogical.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by xGLxAnubis View Post
    Wait, do you believe these things didn't exist EXACTLY like they do now?

    Because they did exist exactly as they do now, and people were somehow able to magically find time to do 40 man raids.
    Back then friends and family and jobs didnt exist

    Just kidding, now seriously, i think he is trying to say that part of the "target audience" (Vanilla players) have jobs and families now.
    But IMO they are just "part" of the target audience.

    Another argument could be used, like "times have changed" and people nowadays dont like this kind of content. (extreme slow paced)

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Back then friends and family and jobs didnt exist

    Just kidding, now seriously, i think he is trying to say that part of the "target audience" (Vanilla players) have jobs and families now.
    But IMO they are just "part" of the target audience.

    Another argument could be used, like "times have changed" and people nowadays dont like this kind of content. (extreme slow paced)
    The average age of a wow player back then was 28. They had jobs and families back then cause they weren't millinials
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

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