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  1. #1421
    I think classic will pave the way for a new generation of racist and misogynist gamers.

  2. #1422
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adviceanon View Post
    I think classic will pave the way for a new generation of racist and misogynist gamers.
    Well...

    It's time to learn responsibility, which retail made you forget, isn't it?
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-06-07 at 06:52 AM.
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  3. #1423
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    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    I agree, obviously the only ones left playing retail are people that can't let go of a game they have put so much time into and collected so many things. The game is terrible right now though and all but the Blizzard tools agree with this.
    The game may be terrible for those that are playing it every day in an effort to stay current. If you're like me and playing it twice a week for 3-4 hours total it's fine. Taking oneself off any sort of gaming treadmill opens the game up in ways that many here cannot even imagine. I still don't think this is by any means their best expansion or anything like that but it's not the worst thing they've done either.
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  4. #1424
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Ulduar still have only 1 difficulty (players are free to complicate it themselves (but this is done through internal mechanics, and not through complexity choice) if they're in a hurry (so making encounter faster) or want to get a certain bonus, including optional bosses)
    Ulduar had two main difficulties - 10 and 25-man (sometimes called "heroic" by Blizzard); with higher level of loot from 25-man - similarly as Vanilla and TBC had better loot from larger raids - assumedly the original idea was that you first did a raid as 10-man and then banded together with more players for the next challenge.

    There were also multiple difficulty levels for many bosses - with different levels of loot; mostly with interesting mechanics - I believe only Hodir was "kill fast". It was good in principle, but they ran out of ideas for activating the mechanics.

    Or in summary: you ran the same raid on a higher difficulty level after a few weeks - similarly as today.

    And seriously: you link to Ulduar post-merging of 10- and 25-man, where I also believe they removed the better rewards for hard modes. Not a mistake that someone that raided when Ulduar was current would have done.

    It's one thing to be nostalgic for one's own memory - it's another to be nostalgic for some distorted version of someone else's memory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    and you literally understood nothing of FIFA explanation
    I have. Everyone is free to play such soccer, or run marathons in the real world - and people can compete in variations of these sports as well - like FIFA beach football and futsal. As long as it is a fairly normal competition you can beat the world record; or not.

  5. #1425
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Ulduar had two main difficulties - 10 and 25-man
    Technically, it was the same mode, just devs didn't yet have flexible raid mechanism. Now they have it and it's 1 mode that is there, and difficulty modes, as it was written, aren't selected when entering, but are controlled by players in flight, as it should be for basic and right this game design, but what you have now is completely not like that (you choose more difficult, you get something better, and you don't need dungeons difficulty modes, everything is simple)

    Am I writing incomprehensibly, or are you reading poorly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Or in summary: you ran the same raid on a higher difficulty level after a few weeks - similarly as today.
    But without unnecessary division into good players and bad ones, everyone played together and on same conditions and with same requirements (Do you want more and better? Try! No? Go further, but part of story won't be available to you (for this or that boss, dialogue, one location or another, which is not only an element of the battle, but also a new part of the content) - Come back when you'll be ready.). Ie, if you want to get all content - strain yourself, go through all its stages of story and progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Everyone is free to play such soccer
    But only at the stage of progress available to them (which means for this game and content, which is also true for the world records of "this stage of progress", and now you even begin to compare its variety, and not specific competitions to which you so much tried to refer, do you trying to dodge? ). Do you still misunderstand the obvious?
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-06-07 at 07:29 AM.
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  6. #1426
    Quote Originally Posted by clausuk57 View Post
    I think a lot of players will realize they are wrong, whenever they start to play classic.

    Have you guys seen venruki newest video, he was one of the biggest naysayer and retail baby, but look at him now.
    Haha, no...
    I've done the vanilla thing, I'm good.
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  7. #1427
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensa1 View Post
    In fact, it's a cheap cop-out that requires little additional resources and is akin, going back to my original car building analogy, to producing identical cars with slightly more horsepower and calling it a day and otherwise not further differentiating between product lines.
    That would only be a problem if they slowed down the release of the different products.
    Car manufacturers haven't done that - and continue to change the looks and other attributes of their cars.

    Blizzard hasn't slowed down much either - Legion had about 40 raid bosses, TBC 53 or so; and the newer bosses have more mechanics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Technically, it was the same mode, just devs didn't yet have flexible raid mechanism.
    Technically the main 10/25-man difference were called normal mode and heroic mode; and they offered different difficulty and different loot.

    Yes, you got better loot (as in higher level) by doing the 25-man raid. And you got even better loot when activating "hard mode".

    Thus after you cleared it once you could go back and progress on the bosses at higher difficulty level for better loot; and it seems that Blizzard had planned that some would progress not only to hard modes but also from 10-man to 25-man (or "heroic mode") - and offered better loot for that transition as well.

    The only difference compared to today is that you couldn't do kill FL with the help of towers and then get back the same week and kill FL without the towers for better loot; you had to wait until the next week.

    Added:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20161120...ead.com/ulduar

    Bosses drop ilvl 219 loot on Normal 10s difficulty, ilvl 226 loot on Normal 25s and Heroic 10s difficulty, and ilvl 239 loot on Heroic 25s difficulty. Bosses do not share loot tables on 10s and 25s difficulty.
    (Blizzard calling 25-man "heroic" didn't really catch on.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Am I writing incomprehensibly, or are you reading poorly?
    Above it's your understanding that is lacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    But only at the stage of progress available to them (which means for this game and content, which is also true for the world records of "this stage of progress").
    Here you are writing incomprehensibly, and your understanding is still lacking.
    Last edited by Forogil; 2019-06-07 at 07:34 AM.

  8. #1428
    Some people still don't understand that Classic and Live are design to complement each other, when there are content droughts on live people will swap to classic then swap for live when they release content.

  9. #1429
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker1 View Post
    150k only is awful and that was FREE lol its going to be less then ouch.

    - - - Updated - - -
    You can't compare "retail" classic with a private server. Since lots of people including me wouldn't play on private servers anyways because the risk of the servers getting wiped was always too high of a risk. Not to mention, I think classic will not overtake retail, but I do think there is going to be a really steady community.

  10. #1430
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    --- snip ---
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...8835940#post-3
    https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...craft/58373978
    25s gear up faster

    how do they gear up faster?

    5 loots 25 ppl = 20% of them get a loot
    2 loots 10 ppl = 20% of them get a loot
    https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...craft/63062666
    Drops more loot.
    Same mechanics. But you are going to have to go a different angle because it scales of course lile more mobs or slimes, etc.
    More hp of course.
    Classic hard mods never were current "harder mods" (= heroic mode, or whatever else) neither in organization nor in perception. "You can not set the boss encounter to Hard mode from the user interface."

    Still...
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-06-07 at 07:58 AM.
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  11. #1431
    Quote Originally Posted by Madwand01 View Post
    If Twitch is anything to go by, it already has.
    So classic is better then retail because classic, which is fresh, beta is still rather new, people have been waiting for it for a long time has abit more viewers now then retail. which is in sorta a content draught, 2-3 weeks from a new patch, every raid cleared on mythic, has been out for months.

    Lets compare classic beta again with retails viewers when eternal palace is coming out yeah ? when patch 8.2 is coming out yeah. Or maybe thats unfair for you cause its "new" and now the beta is "old" ?

  12. #1432
    What is your point?

    Blizzard's official name for 25-man in Wrath was originally "heroic"; some used it - most didn't. Linking some random poster from years afterwards doesn't change that fact.

    Ulduar was released in 2009; you link to people from 2017 and people discussing Cata 10/25-man.

    That was from 6 years ago, whereas it was 10 years since Ulduar released. How is that in any way relevant?

    And remember that one of the hard-modes in Ulduar is listed as one of the raid-encounters that took the longest to kill.

    So, the conclusion remain: you think raids should be like Ulduar - but you have given every indication that you didn't raid when Ulduar was current contents. That's some messed up nostalgia.
    And as previously stated only Hodir is a pure dps check, even if XT and Thorim require high dps to activate hard mode the fight then changes - so in some cases you had to hold off dps to not activate hard mode.
    Last edited by Forogil; 2019-06-07 at 08:00 AM.

  13. #1433
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    --- snip ---
    I gave you links to wowwiki, there are interpreted differences that you can't understand. Threads which you "misunderstand" discuss not only Cata, but specifically Ulduar too. Wrath already had heroic mode (Ulduar was the last without it, which is actually wowwiki reflected). Wowhead comment speaks directly about this. Something with your memory has become?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Classic hard mods never were current "harder mods" (= heroic mode, or whatever else) neither in organization nor in perception. "You can not set the boss encounter to Hard mode from the user interface."
    Сhanges to which you're trying to refer occurred much later of discussed event in the links, although these changes didn't significantly change stuff much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I gave you links to wowwiki, there are interpreted differences that you can't understand. Threads which you "misunderstand" discuss not only Cata, but specifically Ulduar too. Wrath, already had heroic mode (Ulduar was the last without it, which is actually wowwiki reflected). Wowhead comment speaks directly about this. Something with your memory has become? Сhanges, to which you're trying to refer, occurred much later of discussed event in the links, although these changes didn't significantly change stuff much.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    So, the conclusion remain: you think raids should be like Ulduar - but you have given every indication that you didn't raid when Ulduar was current contents. That's some messed up nostalgia.
    And as previously stated only Hodir is a pure dps check, even if XT and Thorim require high dps to activate hard mode the fight then changes - so in some cases you had to hold off dps to not activate hard mode.
    And here you are already becoming "personal" and "progress" stuff that is considered on forums for absence of normal argumentation. What is the difference in my personal progress (which I have never mentioned by the way)? We're talking about general system and approach to dungeons organization (raid are just bigger and harder dungeons, next cycle of content stages), organization of normal flow of content along with progress. Don't forget about that. I won't let you dodge it.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-06-10 at 06:19 PM.
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  14. #1434
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    I gave you links to wowwiki, there are interpreted differences that you can't understand.
    I can understand them, since I was there.

    Can you admit that the different modes, e.g. 10-man and 25-man Ulduar gave different loot? In contrast to the wiki-page you linked that reflected the legion merging of them.

    And activating hard-mode (only one hard-mode in Ulduar was pure dps check) increased both the difficulty with adding new mechanics, and the level of the loot. However, even if hard-mode activation was fun it was a gimmick - and they ran out of ideas.

    That means that after clearing you could go back and re-clear again on a higher difficulty level - exactly as today.

    You have incorrectly stated that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Technically, it was the same mode, just devs didn't yet have flexible raid mechanism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Threads which yuo "misunderstand" discuss not only Cata, but specifically Ulduar too.
    They are people discussing Ulduar years afterwards and thus they care about the color of the loot for transmog purposes, not the level.

    My memory is working - and I don't see any indication that you have a memory of Ulduar as current contents.

    If you only had missed 25-man being called "heroic" that would be normal, since it was primarily an official name that players didn't use; but thinking it was the same mode is beyond that. And linking to discussions during Cata is just...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    What is the difference in my personal progress (which I have never mentioned by the way)? We're talking about general system and approach to dungeons organization (raid are just bigger and harder dungeons, next cycle of content stages), organization of normal flow of content along with progress. Don't forget about that. I won't let you dodge it.
    It's one thing to reminisce about the good old days.

    But your statements give every indication that you weren't there - and thus you are misunderstanding the general system, and praising something that never existed.

    As for dungeons, not raids, the current approach has a large number of advantages compared to the ones during Wrath - as you actually run all dungeons for loot that drops in the dungeons during the expansion.
    Last edited by Forogil; 2019-06-07 at 08:28 AM. Reason: Clarified

  15. #1435
    Warchief msdos's Avatar
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    I'll put it this way: I'm actually anticipating playing classic. I'm looking at gear and zones and old guides and stuff. I've completely forgotten about BFA already, other than the Frost buffs that just came for DKs (I don't even play Frost).

    I'll resub for 8.2, complete the new dungeon and if my guild raids, raid with them until people stop showing up, then unsub again. It's been like this since BFA launch.

  16. #1436
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    And activating hard-mode (which only in one case in Ulduar was a pure dps-check) increased both the difficulty with adding new mechanics, and the level of the loot. However, even if hard-mode activation was fun it was a gimmick - and they ran out of ideas.
    It doesn't change "healthy" design approach, it doesn't change the system, which exactly we're talking about, no? Same raid, same content (= same requirements) FOR EVERYONE, without any direct concessions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    As for dungeons, not raids, the current approach has a large number of advantages compared to the ones during Wrath - as you actually run all dungeons for loot that drops in the dungeons during the expansion.
    About forge items/PL(scaling/catch-up) and loot rolling around (albeit $hitty) like from cornucopia, we can talk to you separately. Better don't even remember about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    But your statements give every indication that you weren't there
    ^
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
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    Yeah, sure Ok, not my quote:
    Hard mode, not to be confused with heroic mode, refers to the increase in difficulty of a raid boss encounter resulting in increased rewards and/or achievements. This is accomplished by doing or not doing certain things that increase the difficulty of the boss fight. You can not set the boss encounter to Hard mode from the user interface.
    Agreed! Nothing in WotLK raiding even comes close to the scope and epic feel of Ulduar. The Hard Mode design based on OS+1,2 3 design really shined, providing more challenging, scalable and ultimately different encounters as opposed to dull "Switch to heroic for the boss to have more HP and retain different phase abilities". Ulduar was as well laced with different non-hm related achievements
    Blizzard ("in their excessive care") hasn't yet had time to make design changes that divide people into retards and minmax/elitists. One and the same requirements (but they exists!) in obtaining content (which also being progress!) for everyone.

    Just admit that you don't like such system (which, if it were still in the game, you would take for granted), or simply because of special obstinacy. Everything is very simple: "that" how it was, but "this" how it became, they're different.

    Also for another theme of design aspect:
    I have found that one of the really great things about this instance, is the trash mob fights. Around almost every corner you will find different trash mobs, with unique abilities that sometimes require innovative strategies to defeat. It really does make grinding the trash in between boss fights more worthwhile.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-06-07 at 09:10 AM.
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  17. #1437
    Quote Originally Posted by Varleen View Post
    Somebody, give this man a beer.

    Although, I must say I liked Wildstar combat... but not its extremely hardcore approach.
    Sadly he's omitting why people quit MMOs all together. They began to stop appealing to the RPG crowd and tried to appeal to the general market. If the standard for measuring this involves, lets say, a ruler, with Divinity Original Sin on one end, and Destiny 2 on the other, Vanilla-Wrath WoW was closer to Divinity on that ruler, whereas WoD-Present is closer to Destiny 2.

    Building a character is basically not a thing anymore. You're handed almost everything with minimal effort, because apparently the journey means nothing, and the "journey" need only encompass the questing experience. No class quests, no in-depth talent system, just the cookie cutter. That's only really 1 example, and the problem extends past WoW as well.

    Wildstar is an enigma, it tried to exist on the Divinity side of the ruler, but ended up failing anyway. The character building and depth was all there for that game, but the questing experience was absolutely mind-numbing. Every environment felt the same, and none of the characters were likable. Gear also felt very unimportant in that game.

    GW2 retains a lot of things on the "Divinity side" with detailed talent systems and customization, but falters with it's rather high system requirements, as well as the poor optimization and limited team.

    Rift went to shit a few years back, but was an overall good game until that happened. I don't play it, so I could never pinpoint the moment it occurred.

    SWTOR nearly died trying to exist as a competitor to WoW and switched to a solo-narrative style game, which it is much more enjoyable as.

    It's a bit unfair to point to data that says "everyone quit mmos" without acknowledging that most mmos abandoned the tenets that made WoW popular in the first place, never had them to begin with, or were fundamentally flawed from day 1. The genre is MMORPG, and the RPG part of that was completely sucked out, or at least in the case of WoW, replaced with quite literal RP in the form of garrisons and class halls.

  18. #1438
    Stood in the Fire
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    For a little while, at least for the western userbase I think classic will be a big deal for a couple months.

    I bet they're hoping it'll cause some returning people to migrate over to the main game, wouldn't be surprised to start seeing incentives and marketing for perks.

  19. #1439
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Technically, it was the same mode, just devs didn't yet have flexible raid mechanism.
    No, it wasn't. 10man was deliberately tuned to be easier than 25 in WotLK and dropped different loot, and they didn't split up size and difficulty until after Ulduar.
    Ulduar, you only had two options: You went in on Normal with 10, or on Heroic with 25.

    Hard modes only added a single drop to each boss of higher quality. The rest of the loot remained unchanged.

  20. #1440
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    replaced with quite literal RP in the form of garrisons and class halls.
    Sadly, even this part was killed for some of us by the fact that they took our characters and gave (I omit obscene words) "unpleasant" and "unfamiliar" to replace them without possibility of at least somehow independently controlling it (we lost our characters, those who are dear to us perhaps most of all in this game, those who controlled last connection between, nothing left, connection was lost). I understand that you didn’t mean it, but this was my direct reason for leaving the game, the rest was more perceived as “collateral damage”.
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Hard modes only added a single drop to each boss of higher quality. The rest of the loot remained unchanged.
    That was the point I referred when talked about "that" system. I just wondered how much time person would need to understand this... but he didn't
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-06-07 at 09:26 AM.
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