Challenge: World Of CharacterCraft

[KrakHed]

Since we're bringing up Outland characters, I really don't understand why so many potentially interesting ones are left to rot in that shithole.

Both Jorin, being Deadeye's son, and Nazgrel, who oversaw the construction of Orgrimmar, are characters that could undoubtedly bring something interesting to the table, especially so considering both have decent pedigrees and since Orc's cast could really use it now.

I've just been reading Nazgrel's old dialogue from Thrallmar and while nothing extraordinary, it's actually quite nice. In some of them he also touches upon topics that are somewhat relevant to what Horde's dealing with now, so there's that.

All in all, I'm of opinion that Orcs should always have a badass warrior type character, since the whole race is basically a poster boy for archetype. I've always wanted for it to be a Hellscream, but Nazgrel could do it too. Him being green orc who went through shit with Thrall, is actually exactly what Garrosh was missing to temper that hot head of his.

Well, the Orcs have lots of badass warriors, but it's going to be a challenge to make them iconic without the kind of burst investment that WC3 was able to give characters, or what Garrosh had with his power to exploit his father's legacy.

There's essentially no room to create or use an iconic legacy character left in the Horde anymore. Kilrogg Deadeye was probably the least notable "Warlord" in Warcraft. Being his son doesn't carry the weight of being a Hellscream. It doesn't give him a monument he can defile into armor, or a legendary axe, or a set of jaw tattoos to decorate himself with.

Jorin's name is notable, but means very little to anyone. Nazgrel is cool, and from WC3, but he's not legendary. It would take a lot of investment to make them the kind of memorable character Grom or Garrosh was. Even with his cinematics, Saurfang's design and character doesn't have anywhere near the recognizability.

The only way to make these characters stand out would be to invest heavily into their designs and presence.

[Dagoth Ur]

New characters
I've just been thinking about new characters that could be introduced into the story, and Il throw a curve ball here and say how I'd love if Horde gets an Ogre character. It doesn't even have to be along with Allied race, just an Ogre character who pops in now and then in quests. I'd make him a warlock, so we can be sure he's not an idiot. He could also be a veteran of First and Second wars. Just imagine hearing an Ogre's perspective on everything that happened ever since then.

Be glad they are forgotten, Blizzard spotlight melts characters into unrecognisable mess.

Yeah lol. I've kinda assumed all this talk includes a variant of the story where writers aren't complete hacks. You're probably right though and it's best for Outland guys to wait the whole Horde identity crisis bit out and then come over here. Better safe than sorry.

[Mehrunes]

What's this "Jorin" thing people repeatedly mention?

[Dagoth Ur]

What's this "Jorin" thing people repeatedly mention?

Grasping at straws. That's what Blizzard has left us with!

[Eggroll]

He ordered Shaw to send more SI:7 to infiltrate Horde's camp in Silithus. And the Alliance has no right to be there. Which the Horde found out about. Then he sent a fucktillion of spies to Orgrimmar after the Gathering and, in his infinite wisdom, ordered them to make their presence (i.e. that the Alliance violated the sovereignty of Horde's territory) known to the Horde.

1) Why has the Alliance no right to be in Silithus? It's contested territory.
2) Do you think the Horde doesn't spy on the Alliance? Of course they do.

All you are describing is the usual business between two rivaling factions... It's like the fking KGB against CIA..

[Mehrunes]

1) Why has the Alliance no right to be in Silithus? It's contested territory.

Care to point out where have I said that Alliance has no right to be in Silithus? Oh, right, you can't, because I said no such thing. I said they have no right to be in Horde camp in Silithus. Because unlike the rest of Silithus the Horde camp in Silithus is Horde territory. And that is where Alliance has no right to be in. They have the entirety of rest of Silithus to be in. Unless you think the Horde can just stroll into Alliance's camp in, let's say Desolace, and then kill Alliance personel and blow up their equipment with impunity.

2) Do you think the Horde doesn't spy on the Alliance? Of course they do.

Are their spies idiots that deliberately let their presence be known to the Alliance, knowing full well they are violating Alliance's borders, which is a hostile act? No? Then it's not really relevant to my point, is it?

@The Stormbringer @Mehrunes

I like the idea of a Forsaken dipping into that stuff, but belves would be my go-to in expanding on the mogu. Both because what they already have in anima meshes so well with the blood elf aesthetic and because it fits with their idea of harnessing ancient magics. Also both being ancient decadent empires lead by people who were really, really smug.

I don't really see how that field of magic would be of much interest for the Blood Elves though. Maybe for the sake of cataloging all there is to magic for the sake of scholar endeavors, but that's it. Whereas for Forsaken it'd be of concern for more practical reasons. Besides, like I said in @Skytotem's recent thread on Forsaken (and Night Elf) organizations, I really think Forsaken should have their own magic-focused force. They should have boatloads of undead Thalassian Elves, plenty of which should be Magisters. And a fair deal of undead Kirin Tor. And there's little reason for them to abandon their interest in magic in undeath. Especially magic relevant to Forsaken issues. Though in case of such field research maybe a joint operation between said Forsaken Magic Association and RAS would be a better option.

[Super Dickmann]

@KrakHed

Your tangent about Thrall is actually pretty appropriate, because it hits on the other overarching issue with Aggra, and that is that outside of Thrall she's a nobody. This isn't necessarily bad, but even the token orc wife traits are just there to enable him to get hitched. Being a satellite character is sometimes fine and that's why I'd emphasize her as representing Thrall's messiah complex, obligation towards the orcs and such, with whom he parts ways while recomitting himself to a different path.

The issue you run into with your Outland idea is that Jorin is far more suited for this, because for Aggra you'd be working with a blank slate. She's a strange character in the sense that she's a Mag'har pretty much solely in that she's spiritual, but she runs counter to both AU and MU in her lack of militancy and attitude towards the Horde. Jorin already represents a more measured warrior archetype than Garrosh as well as a leader figure. Aggra replacing Geyah as a spiritual center might work, but I'd still emphasize Deadeye's son if we'd be doing this. The MU and AU Mag'har meeting up and clashing would also be fun so no argument there.

@Skytotem

You're right, which is why I'd mostly use her to get Thrall out of his funk. She'd have points to make sure but she'd largely be meant to be wrong and much like she induced Go'el onto him, he'd go past that into just wanting to do some good for his people, without needing to be their eternal babysitter, imposing values on them or what have you.

@Mehrunes

No argument there that the Forsaken jive much better with this sort of thing than the blood elves and that they really need a dedicated magical organisation as well. My concerns are chiefly aesthetic ones, if I have to be petty. Past that I think if we were looking into that you can have the RAS be focusing on the flesh-shaping and be co-oping with the blood elves on anima use whereas the spiritual elements would be tackled by a new group.

[Eggroll]

Care to point out where have I said that Alliance has no right to be in Silithus? Oh, right, you can't, because I said no such thing. I said they have no right to be in Horde camp in Silithus. Because unlike the rest of Silithus the Horde camp in Silithus is Horde territory. And that is where Alliance has no right to be in. They have the entirety of rest of Silithus to be in. Unless you think the Horde can just stroll into Alliance's camp in, let's say Desolace, and then kill Alliance personel and blow up their equipment with impunity.




Are their spies idiots that deliberately let their presence be known to the Alliance, knowing full well they are violating Alliance's borders, which is a hostile act? No? Then it's not really relevant to my point, is it?

You literally only have to look at your own post here...

"He ordered Shaw to send more SI:7 to infiltrate Horde's camp in Silithus. And the Alliance has no right to be there. Which the Horde found out about. Then he sent a fucktillion of spies to Orgrimmar after the Gathering and, in his infinite wisdom, ordered them to make their presence (i.e. that the Alliance violated the sovereignty of Horde's territory) known to the Horde."

Spies spy. What a shocker....

[KrakHed]

@KrakHed

Your tangent about Thrall is actually pretty appropriate, because it hits on the other overarching issue with Aggra, and that is that outside of Thrall she's a nobody. This isn't necessarily bad, but even the token orc wife traits are just there to enable him to get hitched. Being a satellite character is sometimes fine and that's why I'd emphasize her as representing Thrall's messiah complex, obligation towards the orcs and such, with whom he parts ways while recomitting himself to a different path.

The issue you run into with your Outland idea is that Jorin is far more suited for this, because for Aggra you'd be working with a blank slate. She's a strange character in the sense that she's a Mag'har pretty much solely in that she's spiritual, but she runs counter to both AU and MU in her lack of militancy and attitude towards the Horde. Jorin already represents a more measured warrior archetype than Garrosh as well as a leader figure. Aggra replacing Geyah as a spiritual center might work, but I'd still emphasize Deadeye's son if we'd be doing this. The MU and AU Mag'har meeting up and clashing would also be fun so no argument there.

@Skytotem

You're right, which is why I'd mostly use her to get Thrall out of his funk. She'd have points to make sure but she'd largely be meant to be wrong and much like she induced Go'el onto him, he'd go past that into just wanting to do some good for his people, without needing to be their eternal babysitter, imposing values on them or what have you.

My problem with Thrall wasn't that he tried to impose his own values, but that he started to think of himself as detached from the Orcs as a whole. A vast number of them are fellow internment babies. He had the political support of the old orcs all along. Imposing his values is fine. It's not the Orcish way to be a coward too worried about how everyone sees you to fight for what you believe. Or it shouldn't be. Thrall needs some proper conviction and strength again, and to actual try appealing to his people and rousing them to his side with speeches and shit.

And considering Jorin's manner of dress and the fact that the Orcs have plenty of warriors in recent memory, I still want him as a dark caster type. But yes, as I fleshed out the idea it struck me that Aggra is better in the Geyah role. I just don't think the Outland Mag'har are as militant in general as you believe. I think their history has left them somewhat similar to the modern Horde.

There are those who see the original Horde as a blasphemy and those who are sad they missed out on it, never having been truly involved themselves. This mirrors how it's the older Orcs who are Thrall's most ardent supporters, the ones who actually participated in the Old Horde, rather than the younger Orcs who don't actually understand what was so wrong about it. It was always Orcs who had nothing to do with the "glory days" who were trying to bring it back.

I'd like to clearly distinguish the MU and AU Mag'har culturally. MU Mag'har should be a cultural blend with no truly distinct clans or traditions remaining, though they have bits of everything. If Jorin's the last notable dude left around to lead, and indeed a caster, then I can't say I'd mind a devious Orc schemer who's learned magic from the remnants of Outland's various clans.

To me, there's no point in trying to recreate Garrosh, Grom, or anyone like that for now. There can never be another Garrosh. It's fundamentally impossible, as there is no other legacy of comparable strength to exploit. Deadeye is the closest thing left, but the Deadeyes are no Hellscreams. Hell, Durotan is no Hellscream. There is no iconic axe to wield, no great moment to live up to. But that also means there's no way to disappoint people by not being the "best of Grom".

To me, Jorin would make for some neat conflicts with the AU Mag'har who see his legacy as one of treason, especially if Jorin himself sees this as ridiculous nonsense and isn't even all that much like his father nor trying to be. And as someone who was never part of the original Horde but was able to observe it from the outside and watch it lead to ruin, I'd prefer he be shrewd enough to see where it went wrong without needing a guilt complex on top of that. And without having some Daddy complex to drive him to imitate it.

But if Jorin is indeed a shrewd thinker, spellcaster, and cunning strategist, rather than an axe-wielding berserker, it'd also fit the likely biases of the Iron Horde that he "lacks honor".

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Now that I think about it a little more, considering the subject of Orcs, there's several things missing. I like there to be certain contrasts and breadth.

Thrall's Horde is a good thing in my mind, as are Thrall's Orcs, because they provide a stable core and practice restraint. In an MMO environment, Thrall's Orcs are optimal if you don't want to bleed characters or have the race redefined every two years. Have your honorable Orcs and Shaman actually be honorable and consider the consequences of their actions, or be hesitant to take certain paths. And if things go too far, they should know to pull back.

The Iron Horde types work well as more reckless, less introspective, and so on. They can provide the Garroshes and directly butt heads with less aggressive leaders, though they should not be placed in charge. Ever. They seem like a good fit to provide full aggro Orcs. And it should be noted, these are the dudes who originally didn't think the Shadowmoon were good enough for them. Their sense of honor should be very strength-based, not abiding by perceived weakness.

However, that does leave a niche open for one Orcish archetype which contrasts both. The sort with the political acumen of Thrall's Horde and the ruthlessness of the Iron Horde, and with nothing to prove to either or anyone. The sort of Orc who made up the Shadow Council, though clearly actual Shadow Council members would be out of the question. If they are to coexist with Thrall's Horde or the Iron Horde, they ought to have standards and ideals, just not necessarily place too much weight on what the others insist is proper for them.

If the Iron Horde sees them as weak or cowardly, so be it. If Thrall's Horde sees their strategies as unsavory, that's fine too. I'd like an Orc who could challenge Thrall in a rational debate and even sway his opinion by providing reasonable and practical solutions to problems in terms that are hard to argue with, without relying on "THIS IS WHAT A TRUE ORC WOULD DO".

Someone who could have learned from Garrosh's political failures to gain more stable widespread support. Someone who could piss off Geya'rah by being far more capable of "playing the game" and convincing leaders to let him try things his way, while she's trying to take the direct approach.

[Super Dickmann]

But if Jorin is indeed a shrewd thinker, spellcaster, and cunning strategist, rather than an axe-wielding berserker, it'd also fit the likely biases of the Iron Horde that he "lacks honor".

I get your point about not having Jorin be defined by his dad and I also like your idea on how to differentiate the AU and MU Mag'har. That having been said, I think if we're going to get anyone at all to ever bring in the Bleeding Hollow AU element with all the superstititon, future telling blood magic etc. it'd be Kilrogg's son, simply due to how the story gets done. In as much as there's any chance at all of this, it'd be Jorin. But if I were going just by a wishlist, then I can second your thoughts on him, ditto the appeal of not having been a warrior.

The thing with the Mag'har demographically speaking is that they'd have lost another generation to joining Garrosh and being his closest circle. Those left over would be the calmer types who, whether out of genuine conviction or just out of practiclity would want to tone the war. Unlike characters like Baine, they'd have lost their own to conflict and thus be more inclined to keep it limited. For the AU Mag'har, who've been a warrior society from the start, this'd obviously be a grave sign of weakness, but it'd also be off for the MU orcs because they've been in constant conflict and deprivation. If we are using the Mag'har as the reformist alternative to the MU orcs as moderates and the AU Mag'har as traditionalist/Garrosh-ist, then that also leaves the room for them being the main vector for considering such a thing as a civilian in the orcs. The MU Mag'har are the only orcish group that've had to care for those who can't care for themselves rather than using them for either labour or killing them in their crib.

You know I personally don't have much fondness or interest in Thrall-style orcs, both out of preference and in the sense that Thrall-style orcs fail as a baseline because of what a dog's breakfast has been made of it over the years as well as how the canon as it's been set up doesn't support the ones in the main universe as being such. But in terms of genuine carriers of those ideals, free of self-flagellation, the remaining MU Mag'har would jive well with sorts like a Saurfang that isn't involved in this abysmal plot and a more humble Thrall. The AU Mag'har provide my preferred sort of orc, as do people like Usha and left-over MU Mag'har that did move over like Cromush. It's a very varied race, and there's room for it all. Orcs are not so much limited by their lore, but by the massacre of their casts and the narrative's inability to hold other races to the same logical standard they do them. They aren't obligated to be culled every once in a while by anything except the writers' obsession with failed moralistic plots that have turned them into an irreparable shadow of their former selves. Hence why alternate versions of them with next to zero lore except interesting conjecture are more promising than the atrophied remnants of the MU green orcs and their cast.

[KrakHed]

I get your point about not having Jorin be defined by his dad and I also like your idea on how to differentiate the AU and MU Mag'har. That having been said, I think if we're going to get anyone at all to ever bring in the Bleeding Hollow AU element with all the superstititon, future telling blood magic etc. it'd be Kilrogg's son, simply due to how the story gets done. In as much as there's any chance at all of this, it'd be Jorin. But if I were going just by a wishlist, then I can second your thoughts on him, ditto the appeal of not having been a warrior.

The thing with the Mag'har demographically speaking is that they'd have lost another generation to joining Garrosh and being his closest circle. Those left over would be the calmer types who, whether out of genuine conviction or just out of practiclity would want to tone the war. Unlike characters like Baine, they'd have lost their own to conflict and thus be more inclined to keep it limited. For the AU Mag'har, who've been a warrior society from the start, this'd obviously be a grave sign of weakness, but it'd also be off for the MU orcs because they've been in constant conflict and deprivation. If we are using the Mag'har as the reformist alternative to the MU orcs as moderates and the AU Mag'har as traditionalist/Garrosh-ist, then that also leaves the room for them being the main vector for considering such a thing as a civilian in the orcs. The MU Mag'har are the only orcish group that've had to care for those who can't care for themselves rather than using them for either labour or killing them in their crib.

You know I personally don't have much fondness or interest in Thrall-style orcs, both out of preference and in the sense that Thrall-style orcs fail as a baseline because of what a dog's breakfast has been made of it over the years as well as how the canon as it's been set up doesn't support the ones in the main universe as being such. But in terms of genuine carriers of those ideals, free of self-flagellation, the remaining MU Mag'har would jive well with sorts like a Saurfang that isn't involved in this abysmal plot and a more humble Thrall. The AU Mag'har provide my preferred sort of orc, as do people like Usha and left-over MU Mag'har that did move over like Cromush. It's a very varied race, and there's room for it all. Orcs are not so much limited by their lore, but by the massacre of their casts and the narrative's inability to hold other races to the same logical standard they do them. They aren't obligated to be culled every once in a while by anything except the writers' obsession with failed moralistic plots that have turned them into an irreparable shadow of their former selves. Hence why alternate versions of them with next to zero lore except interesting conjecture are more promising than the atrophied remnants of the MU green orcs and their cast.

Well yes, he should certainly have Bleeding Hollow magic. I'm just saying he could borrow from other traditions as well, because there's no point being a purist in the MU Mag'har. You also make another good point. The Mag'har would have lost a lot of Garrosh-followers to a war they had no immediate investment in, fighting for Orgrimmar and Azeroth.

Honestly, I think Orcs are the race hardest hit by faction war plots. To me, Thrall-style Orcs worked perfectly fine as a stable society with more or less enough resources depending on what the writers were telling at a moment. It only became unsustainable and deeply hypocritical in the buildup to the Faction War plot. The whole thing basically butchered every variety of Orc in terms of appeal. The team couldn't keep its direction consistent and trashed everything.

But mistakes aside, I don't treat this as a living breathing world. In terms of storytelling, Thrall's Orcs offered stability as long as they were the main Orcs. The poor choices and confusion surrounding the Garrosh we got, originally introduced in the comics as a strawman, was not a sustainable path. Every time Blizzard plays with controversy, it gets burned and drops the ball. I don't want anymore civil wars or revolutions in the Horde ever. I don't want any dramatic new direction with strong dividing lines. That just means more characters will die, because Blizzard keeps making the new direction too extreme or deliberately sells it in as unpalatable a manner as possible.

But you make a good point. The MU Mag'har have had to care for the sick. they were those who couldn't fight, and later who lived in relative peace despite some conflicts with Ogres and Broken. And Fel orcs, quite likely. Those who would fight for the sake of it likely already went down with Garrosh. I don't expect much fierce Horde patriotism from those who remain, and little pan-Orcish sentiment.

An Orc who honestly just wants to make a place where his people can have a future and isn't investing too much of his own ego into how he'd make a name for himself, live up to a legacy, die with honor, crush his foes, or pay penance for crimes he never committed, would be almost novel at this point. His honor could simply be justice and a future for his people. Less idealistic than most Orcs, either as a war or peace monger, but potentially more influential and dangerous for that. I want someone who could do the Shadow Council thing and use the needs and desires of other leaders to gain the support he needs.

Someone maybe with a hint of Zul, without the outright evil Old God thing. Use some blood prophecy and magic to outmaneuver and decimate enemy forces, unite people for the goal of creating a stable home for themselves while actually meaning it this time. No using it as paranoid rhetoric to manipulate the plebs. The sort of dude capable enough to lead his enemies into a trap like Gul'dan could, while not actually being a villain.

Hell, maybe he could even have the presence of mind to scout out various territories that the Mag'har could settle on with minimal casualties. The Horde doesn't need to obsessively keep attacking Ashenvale or other lands in which the Night Elves are firmly entrenched. Hell, Desolace is rapidly becoming anything but desolate, and if that growth is tended to it could easily serve as the basis for a "New Nagrand". They'd just have to fight some Demon Cultists and Centaur for it, and tell the few Night Elves left there to fuck off if they don't like it. Other than that' it's free real estate, and they can build New Garadar on it. Or Kilroggar. Or something. A second Orc city on Kalimdor.

I'm actually much more interested in seeing the Horde build up and expand on Kalimdor than to see them fight Night Elves or boring humans. Ah, and just imagine! A train linking two great Orc cities together across the continent! Or even three Orc cities if the Iron Horde makes their own claim!

[Skytotem]

Excited about the reception I've seen in the thread, it's interesting to see the kinds of characters folks would add to a faction or the interactions among lore characters they'd like to see. (Especially interesting to see Velen popping up)


Some more thoughts I'd had

Interactions:
-I'd love to see Gorgonna make a reappearance and interact with AU Mag'har even Geyah'rah (despite not being a fan of AU-FemThrall personally), learn some of the 'wind/howling' based axe abilities we saw in WoD's Nagrand to give her a little hook and reform the Warsong into something that won't be out of place despite Garrosh's mess, or even make a new clan.

-Have Celestine the Harvest Witch speak with the Drust Thornspeaker. Gilnean druidism might share a common origin with Kul'tiran druidism from before the Kul'tirans melded with the Drust.

-Roanoak Icemist interacting with Baine and Mayla would do wonders for the Tauren I think. Force Baine to look at how life works for people in different environs and upbringings.

-Danath, Kurdran, Alleria, Khadgar and Turalyon are LONG overdue for a reunion. Arathi is the perfect place for it if the Alliance wins there. Sons of Lothar back in Lothar's ancestral home.

-Rexxar and Baine interact might be nice too given Rexxar rescued him back in WC3. Maybe give Blizz a chance to better explain why the hell Rexxar is in this dumb war beyond Jaina 'killing too many' (what?) and have he and Baine do some stuff for the Horde but without directly pandering to the Alliance.

-Alleria and Genn talking about the uh 'changes' they and their people have both gone through. There's a lot of fertile ground there for talk about self control.

-Thrall and Thalyssra, about the burdens of leadership and what uh... NOT to do. Maybe why Thrall let Sylvanas join in the first place.


New Character Ideas:

-A NON-EVIL Forsaken Apothecary, someone who, while a little grim and crazy, isn't stupidly sadistic, and helps cure a 'red pox' outbreak. Let the guy vivisect a faceless one or a naga maybe, but no munching on babies and delighting in poisoning innocent villagers.

-A Dark Iron Judge (Paladin) who works to get rid of the image of Dark Irons as untrustworthy by being SUPER by the book and self sacrificing even by Paladin standards, but also absurdly harsh, a bit reminiscent of Scarlet Crusaders. Specializes in killing dark magic users on the Horde.

-A Zandalari Arcanital (Mage) Historian in the Reliquary, arguing with the belf members about records all the time, and Nightborne about different views of history.

-A Night Elf priestess who's working to gather, copy, and spread as many copies of night elf history, art, literature, etc... as possible after the destruction of Teldrassil, traveling around with a Worgen Bodyguard buddy.

[matrix123mko]

What's this "Jorin" thing people repeatedly mention?

Son of Kilrogg who in BC said that we can't trust Garrosh. For me he is interesting because he wears necromancer robe.

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I want to see some powerful warlock on Horde side. He should be egoistic and pragmatic but helpful for the Horde.

[cparle87]

Maraad was an awful loss. Like, he was basically killed so that Yrel could further develop as a character, and now she's not even a part of the Alliance. What happened to the whole, "We will be there for you" thing from the end of WoD? Why didn't her army of Lightforged come barreling through the portal when the Legion invaded? It was a waste. Maraad would've been there for us.

Um, because the portal was destroyed in lore, maybe? We had to scrounge up a part of the hourglass to open even a temporary gate to see what became of the mag'har. And we found the draenei had gone completely off their rockers in the past 30 years.

[Skytotem]

Son of Kilrogg who in BC said that we can't trust Garrosh. For me he is interesting because he wears necromancer robe.

I've always felt Jorin should use a mix of the Bleeding Hollow Blood Magic (Life) and Shadowmoon Magic (Death) and be a great all-around caster. He's got a lot of potential if Blizz remembers he exists.

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Um, because the portal was destroyed in lore, maybe? We had to scrounge up a part of the hourglass to open even a temporary gate to see what became of the mag'har. And we found the draenei had gone completely off their rockers in the past 30 years.

I think they meant 'why' more in the writing sense.