Page 13 of 39 FirstFirst ...
3
11
12
13
14
15
23
... LastLast
  1. #241
    Was anyone expecting them to be difficult when armed with 15 years of knowledge?

  2. #242
    Scarab Lord Kuja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    City of Judgement
    Posts
    4,945
    I think most, if not all of current beta players are streamers. And streamers play wow for living, so naturally they are very good at it. So even challenging content is trivial to them if they know how to play the game and how to minmax. I too sucked at the game when I played vanilla back in the day, and even in tbc. But since then I've became almost an elitist and accept nothing but perfect performance from me.

    My gold making blog
    Your journey towards the gold cap!


  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Trbn View Post
    today interface give you everything to raid and m+

    in raids it shouts, it has great raid frames, it has all the effects to show procs, bars are customizable.

    all you missing are dps meter, aggro meter and timers. and you are clearly ok without it
    It doesnt matter. Mythic+ or mythic raids are not relevant in this discusion. People say classic isnt hard compare to mythic +10. NONONNO You have to compared vannila dungeons to normal dungeons of BFA. It is about how hard is to finish content no how hard is to finish diffiuclty level. So quit this comparison. As long as modern wow will have easy mods it wont ever be harder.

    And if you want moder wow to actualy be harder than Blizzard have to remove LFR, normal, heroics, and all dungeon difficulties below mythic 10. Than we can say current wow is harder.

  4. #244
    This is a really interesting and funny discussing and topic to watch. For me this seems to be two-folded.

    On one hand you have people just telling that dungeons used to be harder in vanilla, and then you have people that are trying to compared damage numbers per hit from elites in the dungeons directly with what they can remember from vanilla and claiming them to be too low on the Classic BETA.

    I'm not entirely sure if doing direct comparison of the numbers is a good idea and a good metric. World of Warcraft: Classic is not Vanilla. It's not World of Warcraft Patch 1.12.2. In order to have the game running on the modern infrastructure, integrate with Battle.net and run on modern hardware they had to take the modern database and the modern database labels and structure and retrofit patch 1.12.2 into this database structure to replicate World of Warcraft Patch 1.12.2 as best as they could.

    As there are way more labels in the database today compared to back then, are we even certain it's possible to just replicate the values from the old 1.12.1 database into a database on the modern structure? I suspect this is not possible, so they have to input different values in order to achieve the same dps output from the mobs within the game.

    So perhaps monster A hits for less damage, compared to vanilla. But perhaps there are other labels and factors that will account for it? Like attack speed being slightly higher so in order to get the overall same amount of damage output from the mob as in vanilla, they had to slightly lower the damage per strike as it was not possible to perfectly tune the mob to hit the same amount of time per minutes as before?

    And how do you do a direct comparison? There are so many variables in play here. Character level, class, talent points, gear, buffs, potions and whatnot. Unless you have identical characters running on the old patch 1.12.1 vanilla client and server and directly compare it to the very same character on the classic beta how can you really tell what the damage numbers are supposed to actually look like?

    Many seem to compare with private servers but why should we believe that these private servers have perfectly replicated damage numbers? I've played on many of them and I enjoyed it a bunch but they all have a lot of scripting issues and whatnot so I wouldn't use them for any kind of reference.


    In terms of how hard vanilla dungeons really was I suspect this is more of instance when people have convinced themselves that it was harder than it really was. I also remember them to be difficult, I played vanilla, tbc and wotlk and to be honest it's somewhat hard to remember if my memory is from vanilla, tbc or wotlk and the content got tuned during both tbc and wotlk.

    What I do remember is how god awful I was at the game. I was so young, had never played any MMO before and was utterly clueless at the time and I still managed to get through most dungeons without wiping too many times. Considering the wast amount of knowledge people have today when it comes to classes, optimisations, mechanics etc.. There is no wonder why things seems much easier.

    It was a few things that made dungeons hard. It was because of having a tank that was clueless so bad handling of aggro would get DPS and healer killed all the time. Or having a healer that was just wasting mana for no reason, overhealing, getting aggro because of spamming out pointless heals etc.. Or because you entered dungeons undergeared, or perhaps the most common mistake going into dungeons underlevelled. It's normally a 10 level difference between the entry mobs and the end boss in most vanilla dungeons so I often ended up in groups trying to tackle a dungeon we had no real chance of doing due to us being too low level. It might start of looking half-decent only to go down the drain soon after when digging deeper into the dungeon.

    From what I can remember we couldn't inspect talents of other players either? So you had no real clue if the tank was even specced into tanking before tossing the invite. And often you would not be patient enough to wait for higher level players so you just took what you've got making your group often becoming underlevelled.


    With players being so much better and knowledgeable about the game and the dungeons, and with most players more likely to not take on dungeons while being severely underlevelled, with most tanks actually knowing about aggro and how to tackle it and with healers not as likely to waste healing and mana it won't look nearly as hard as it used to.
    Last edited by RamGuy; 2019-05-20 at 09:34 AM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    They were never hard, just time consuming and requiring patience, sometimes confusing.

    Vanilla was never truly "hard", you just had so many roadblocks (many of which we are now better at handling/have better ideas of), that it seemed hard. It was an illusion.

    IMO TBC Heroics were the "hard" dungeons and even then it was easy, just once again tedious and time consuming. Same thing with the Cata heroics, people slammed how hard they were, people just didn't want to wait for healers to get mana.
    TRUE, imo the best the dungeons have ever been were early Cata dungeon heroics.

  6. #246
    They weren't hard if you CC'd well.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    We actually did kill him without it because we wiped so many times that we just lost the patience to get the buff again and again. We also had several external warlock soulstones on the raid and wiped after that anyway, didn't repeate that. But sometimes you needed the buffs to reach new phases in the boss encounter. May old raids had bosses that checked your raid dps. Most famous one was Patchwerk.
    I always thought of Patchwerk as a healer's fight, with a serious gear requirement on tanks and healers but not really a particularly tough dps check.

    Now Loatheb I remember being a huge DPS test.

    At least if these old forum screenshots are to be believed.


  8. #248
    So many supposed vanilla players here saying shit like "vanilla was easy" are harming their credibility. Vanilla was not easy. It wasn't terribly hard, but to say it presented no challenge to the players is a lie. You know how these days you can tag 6+ mobs at once and aoe them down? Nope, couldn't do that in Vanilla. In fact, if you pulled more than 2 at once (for the vast majority of classes) that was a guaranteed death. Yes, even the starting zones and especially next-level zones were much harsher than today. There were areas in Vanilla in the outside world with (usually roaming) elites that if you pulled one, for most classes that was a deathwish. It's ridiculous how people are bending over backwards to say "x and y happened, but it wasn't hard" or "w and z were factors, but it wasn't hard". What exactly do you think determines how difficult something is?

  9. #249
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    3,129
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqur View Post
    -snip-
    Wow, vanilla is so hard.
    /s
    Notice how they have tier 2.5 and tier 3.

    So these guys have killed Patchwerk and most likely cleared most of AQ.
    Onyxia is an entry level raid that they massively overgear who they would have experienced killing every single week even if just for the head buff.
    Last edited by Lollis; 2019-05-20 at 09:46 AM.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  10. #250
    I am Murloc! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Pebbleton Family Castle.
    Posts
    5,296
    Dungeons weren't hard. I remember soloing Shadowfang at level 22 up to and including Fel Steed when I was little (and by no means a good player). Also made good progress in Wailing Caverns alone to farm deviate leather.
    People were just largely clueless, which isn't going to happen with nowadays' knowledge.

  11. #251
    Epic! Makabreska's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Orbis Terrarum
    Posts
    1,585
    Man, those nostalgia glasses are slowly falling off.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Man, those nostalgia glasses are slowly falling off.
    They dont. People never wanted classic for its difficulty. They wanted it for its community aspect, immersion, character progression and over all rpg aspects.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by InTheEnd View Post
    So many supposed vanilla players here saying shit like "vanilla was easy" are harming their credibility. Vanilla was not easy. It wasn't terribly hard, but to say it presented no challenge to the players is a lie. You know how these days you can tag 6+ mobs at once and aoe them down? Nope, couldn't do that in Vanilla. In fact, if you pulled more than 2 at once (for the vast majority of classes) that was a guaranteed death. Yes, even the starting zones and especially next-level zones were much harsher than today. There were areas in Vanilla in the outside world with (usually roaming) elites that if you pulled one, for most classes that was a deathwish. It's ridiculous how people are bending over backwards to say "x and y happened, but it wasn't hard" or "w and z were factors, but it wasn't hard". What exactly do you think determines how difficult something is?
    The main determining factor in how hard vanilla dungeons were, was how many bad players you had in your party. Back then the impact of a terrible player was much bigger. A bad tank was useless. Today a bad tank just needs to faceroll the right buttons to keep aggro. A bad dps'er was worse than dead weight as they pulled extra packs and broke cc. A bad healer would run out of mana in no time.

    But for players who were average or better, it was very easy. Easier than current mythic dungeons. I remember 5 priests from my guild doing Dire Maul in vanilla just for kicks. Everything was slower and more punishing back then - but it was not harder. The skill floor was higher, but the skill ceiling was lower. If you farmed your consumables, had properly statted gear, enchants, etc. - then you steamrolled dungeons and raids to a much higher degree than today.

  14. #254
    Epic! Makabreska's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Orbis Terrarum
    Posts
    1,585
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    They dont. People never wanted classic for its difficulty. They wanted it for its community aspect, immersion, character progression and over all rpg aspects.
    Oh I heard differently all those years. I also see it differential, looking at beta reports. They kept telling me how Vanilla was sooo hard, so complex. But hey, now they can immerse and progress all they want, while spamming single ability on a boss that also has 1 meaningful mechanic.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  15. #255
    I am Murloc! Nnyco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Haomarush
    Posts
    5,577
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    They dont. People never wanted classic for its difficulty. They wanted it for its community aspect, immersion, character progression and over all rpg aspects.
    Literally every second classic thread is about how much harder it was back then and how retail is for babies, so clearly the a chunk of the community expected some major difficult wow, talkin about which the community will defo become another elitist circlejerk where you wont get an invite into some dungeons soon if you dont play fotm.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Man, those nostalgia glasses are slowly falling off.
    Just wait, man.

    I can guarantee you that the next thing they'll be screaming is that this is "not the real Classic/Vanilla" and things don't work as they did back then.
    Wait, they are already screaming that. Nvm.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Oh I heard differently all those years. I also see it differential, looking at beta reports. They kept telling me how Vanilla was sooo hard, so complex. But hey, now they can immerse and progress all they want, while spamming single ability on a boss that also has 1 meaningful mechanic.
    So pretty much same as modern wow expect you can ignore every single mechanic. Classic have atlest 1.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    So pretty much same as modern wow expect you can ignore every single mechanic. Classic have atlest 1.
    Please try ignoring every single mechanic on normal difficulty or higher in raiding, see how that works out.

  19. #259
    Epic! Makabreska's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Orbis Terrarum
    Posts
    1,585
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    So pretty much same as modern wow expect you can ignore every single mechanic. Classic have atlest 1.
    Ahahahahahahaha. Good one buddy.
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    Just wait, man.

    I can guarantee you that the next thing they'll be screaming is that this is "not the real Classic/Vanilla" and things don't work as they did back then.
    Wait, they are already screaming that. Nvm.
    "BC/WotLK was da best!!!" incoming.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by alosiboy View Post
    Please try ignoring every single mechanic on normal difficulty or higher in raiding, see how that works out.
    Pretty easy actualy i have done normal dungeons. There was nothing punishing. And i have seen only 1 mechanics in LFR what actualy does wipe raid for entire bfa so again no.
    Last edited by Elias01; 2019-05-20 at 10:39 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •