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  1. #381
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    People can't even begin to agree what "difficulty" means anymore. If you talk about how pulling two mobs in classic meant you risked death, it's "not mechanically hard so not hard", if you die because you had no potion that isn't difficulty because anyone can have a potion ready, if you run out of mana that's not difficulty because you could have waited for 100% mana after every pull, if you pull additional mobs (because mobs are more densely packed) that's not difficulty but you not being careful and should've just approached from a different angle. Running out of resources isn't any result of difficulty (mobs taking 15-25 seconds to die and dealing quite a lot of damage) because you can theoretically make sure to be 100% for every single mob pull.

    In short, if you break down how people on forums treat "difficulty" in this game, you realize that absolutely nothing is difficult anywhere. Avoiding a 1 second instant death mechanic isn't hard, you just have to press strafe within .9 seconds, work on your reaction time scrub. Taking 5%+ of your maximum health every hit by a mob as you literally have no stuns or ways to self-heal isn't difficult, just tedious (as if that's less difficult than mobs that barely damage you at all)

    So what is difficulty? Is nothing allowed to be regarded as difficult if it's not difficulty in execution? Is that the only thing that can be regarded as difficult in RPGs, and never pure numbers? Your lowbie tank who blocks 12 damage getting crushed for 1/4 of his healthpool isn't difficult because the healer can top him off (but the mana is bleeding out quickly) isn't any sort of difficulty? How can balancing numbers, characters generally not having many tools for escaping or controlling mobs, interrupts etc, mob spells dealing a lot of damage not be regarded as difficulty? I mean if you start arguing this way, no RPG has ever been difficult, because theoretically playing perfectly will produce a smooth experience (albeit very slow and calculated).

    And yet people will most likely experience more wipes in a typical Deadmines or SFK run, than they've experienced in any non-mythic dungeon since BFA was released.
    Mistakes in classic dungeons mean wipes, in retail it's a minor annoyance with zero consequences.
    Leveling or doing dungeons on Live feels like you are stuck in godmode, and for all intents and purposes you are. You have to play purposefully awful in order to die on Live.

    In contrast, no one has proper AoE in DM, you can run with a level 19 paladin who has no heal other than a pretty weak 3 sec cast Holy Light, and a 1h LoH. Mobs have fleeing-mechanics and barely any in the group can slow or stun them.

    People can repeat tedious != difficult and similar, they will still experience far more deaths in Classic than they've done in retail for years. Then it doesn't matter that it isn't strictly speaking mechanically hard, that high level mob with a 20 yard aggro range is still going to whoop your ass, and throw a 8 second Net effect on you for good measure.


    Well, what I can at least be certain of, is that the tone will change quite drastically when all those who hasn't experienced it will realize just how much of a beating they're taking from an equal-level mob. It's fascinating how much the game dynamic changes when you lose godmode.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2019-05-20 at 09:47 PM.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
    Occasional WoW Classic Andy since.
    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    (it won't be so simple, but let suppose that it happens) and there's nothing wrong with that, because:
    but this all was about essence of comparison and in this case it's necessary to compare LFR (that is the easiest level of content obtaining) with... which one? but Classics didn't have other levels so...

    ps. You may like it or not, it can agree with your attempts at argumentation or not, but this is how it is in fact.
    You literally compare Classic progress with todays lfr?
    If you wanna compare progress difficulty compare Classic progress to Mythic progress. That is the progress of nowadays not LFR. You literally compare two different aspects of the game and call Classic harder? Wow.
    Also what do you mean that progress never ends? Killing the Last boss in mythic is the end. It doesnt get clearer than this.
    What is the hardest raid difficulty you done btw? I'm interested in your actual exp, you seem to think you're too good in theoriticals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Having multiple difficulties doesnt add content, it just makes it more accessible for bad players.

    The difficulty of the content is not measured by the difficulty of maintaining your output alone.

    I can name litteral 1button specs from vanilla that are harder to execute than any and all specs in BFA.

    Having multiple gear requirements for all of your raiders does add difficulty, unless you are playing with bots.

    The numbers of abilities are irrelevant when none of them are important.


    Ofcourse it will be. Because theres people whom have cleared it 20+ times on fresh servers. However for half-decent semi-casual players whom havent seen the place before, it's going to be exactly like back in the days.
    1) Unless you start by doing mythic straight and never do heroics/anything lower then Yes. But even mythic raiders clear heroic so you're wrong. Content is whatever you are willing to engage with. Hell ppl even do LFR for mounts.

    2) what? You can't argue this. Keeping up rotation and watching procs are infinitely more complex than spamming 1 spell. I see you try to twist this statement to your advantage but no, as a dps maintaining your output is your sole focus while doing mechanics.

    3) Do it. And explain how is one button harder than more than one.

    4) It does not. It's called gating. It doesn't increases the difficulty of the encounters. It's a simple entry fee.

    5) How are none important? What difficulty do you play with? Try not interrupting adds on the first BoD boss on mythic. Or standing in hammers. Or stacking boss too high. Tell me whats not important. And this is a free farm boss. Dont get me stated on Grong.

    5) Half decent semmi casual player are still progressing in BoD norm/hc. This is not a metric. Ofc people who wont even be lv60 till november wont clear MC fast. They are not the focus here.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by saidolol View Post
    Vanilla was never hard. It only took time.
    I started a DM group last night at 2330 PM. It didn't finish until 0130. It was great. Really enjoyed it. Got a great mace and pants. Rewarding even.

    Logged onto retail. Did my dailies. 45 minutes. Felt like a chore.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Mistakes in classic dungeons mean wipes, in retail it's a minor annoyance with zero consequences.
    Leveling or doing dungeons on Live feels like you are stuck in godmode, and for all intents and purposes you are. You have to play purposefully awful in order to die on Live.
    Have you even done any actual dungeon content on live to be making claims like this? Proper mythic+ is far far beyond anything in classic or TBC or whatever (and is of course for a slightly different audience than introductory raiders doing kara attunement and related stuff) so I'll leave that out of the discussion, but if you queued for like heroic Shrine on launch you'd certainly see people dying to runebearer etc. I very much doubt you've done relevant dungeon content on live; leveling dungeons are not the focus currently - endgame dungeons are and in those you certainly have to play properly when doing a dungeon of your gear level.
    Last edited by Farah; 2019-05-20 at 10:39 PM.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuse View Post
    Pfft I remember tanking Deadmines at level 18 on my Arms Warrior with a 2 hander and without having learned Defensive stance. That's how bad I was and we still never wiped. They just took forever but were not necessarily difficult, except for the ones that ramped up the level of the enemies throughout like BRD.
    You sound like a friend of mine I leveled with. Wanted to be a 2h Warrior, and also tanked for our group. Didn't want to be a standard tank, so never bought ANY skills in the Protection tree. No Sunder Armor, no Defensive Stance, not even sure he had Taunt. His idea of tanking was doing more damage. We made up to and through Gnomergan with this strategy before I just out leveled him as a Priest and ran with others. :P

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    What grinds my gear the most is this "you couldn't pull 2 mobs and not die!" argument. Off course you could, but why would you want to do that? It's not like you are going to kill them any faster this way. Now if i play a mage i will pull giant trains of mobs just because i have so much cleave to take them down fast, pulling them one by one would be akin to trying to pull giant trains of mobs on classic - it's not effective way of doing things. When i leveled rogue on classic i definitely pulled bunch of mobs because i had blade fury and evasion (and when i accumulated enough gear to DPS them even faster i could easily pull trains of mobs with just health potions)
    It definitely depended on class, level, spec, gear, and what color/type mob you were dealing with. Fresh out of Northshire Abbey if you decided to go to the Fargodeep mines and pull a bunch of Kobolds, many were mages, and players had no abilities or gear you were mostly dead. Level 40ish or what ever the early Blasted Lands quests were, and you had plenty of questing, dungeon, crafted gear, a decent helping of abilities, you could easily survive a decent mob of enemies.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    They were never hard, just time consuming and requiring patience, sometimes confusing.

    Vanilla was never truly "hard", you just had so many roadblocks (many of which we are now better at handling/have better ideas of), that it seemed hard. It was an illusion.

    IMO TBC Heroics were the "hard" dungeons and even then it was easy, just once again tedious and time consuming. Same thing with the Cata heroics, people slammed how hard they were, people just didn't want to wait for healers to get mana.
    This was exactly what I was leaning towards as well. Classic Dungeons weren't necessarily challenging just tedious and often confusing due to their sizes and multiple winding corridors. Maybe some CC is needed in case of large pulls but in TBC Heroics that was standard practice each pull. Classic dungeon runs themselves weren't difficult. It was forming said groups, getting to the dungeon location and navigating it that was the challenge. Working with 4 other people to take down the mobs was actually the easiest part.
    "They will come for us now, all of them" "Let them come, Frostmourne The Banshee Queen hungers."

  8. #388
    TBC dungeons were difficult. Vanilla dungeons were not. There were two things that made vanilla dungeons difficult. One, actually making the group. Two, being grouped with people that didn't know how to play. If you didn't have to deal with those two things, you'd soar through them. As of right now, most everyone knows how to play and everyone is looking for a group. There goes the two difficulties of vanilla dungeons.

  9. #389
    Field Marshal Lexia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Classic was tideous, not hard.
    Exactly. Nothing about Classic was hard.
    Tauren warriors stand between their allies and death.
    Gnomes keep death from walking that far.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by maomoa View Post
    I started a DM group last night at 2330 PM. It didn't finish until 0130. It was great. Really enjoyed it. Got a great mace and pants. Rewarding even.

    Logged onto retail. Did my dailies. 45 minutes. Felt like a chore.
    You just compared apples with oranges, but alright.

  11. #391
    My overriding memory of vanilla was not knowing how to effectively move and kite with my mouse until I was forced to do it for the Winterspring demon part of the Rhok'delar quest. And that was after I had been the person doing the chain-pulling in MC for quite a while.

    So...I'll just add another: There was nothing "hard" about vanilla. Players were just inexperienced/bad at the game.

  12. #392
    Classic requires patience, not skill.

  13. #393


    Kaivax posted on reddit this.
    Explains a lot for all Horde players.

    Doesnt explain Alliance side.

  14. #394
    Dungeons were difficult back then because the players were extremly bad and unexperienced. I didnt use hotkeys until 2 years after i hit max level.

    Nowadays everyone is SO MUCH BETTER. At least half of the group knows the mechanics - and for most part they know how WOW works.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Dungeons were difficult back then because the players were extremly bad and unexperienced. I didnt use hotkeys until 2 years after i hit max level.

    Nowadays everyone is SO MUCH BETTER. At least half of the group knows the mechanics - and for most part they know how WOW works.
    i didn't start keybinding until like halfway through legion, and i've been playing since wotlk. i'm still not that great.

    but yeah, classic isn't about the dungeons being hard. it's about the journey to get there. if the little twitch cancer pustules go in with the same mentality that caused mythic+ on live, they'll either quit within a couple months, or cause blizzard to make non-classic changes.

  16. #396
    low level dungeons were easy, I saw a guy tanking with a two hander in prot spec scarlet monastry.
    try to pull that shit without a single cc in ubrs and we can talk again.

    still though, they were mostly time consuming not too hard. a full brd would take very very long hours.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    The worst that can happen in vanilla dungeons is your tank not understanding how threat works, will constantly pull packs with 0 rage, because he didn't saved enough, will dump rage on heroic strikes and rends.

    Or your DPS players will go full retard and don't understand how threat works, that dumb warlock won't stop throwing agony on everything, pulling stuff off the tank because he didn't hit everyone with sunders yet (misses, dodges, parries) and he won't be able to reach a mob (taunt range and resist) that runs towards that warlock who proceeds to run away.

    Often it won't wipe your group if at least someone knows what to do, but it's definitely going to be annoying.
    Sure, that can happen. But in a group that knows how the game works you just walk all over the content. Even more so in vaniolla than now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    That a ridiculous comparison, comparing pre-30 dungeons to Mythic+. Do you honestly think that retail Wailing Caverns for example are harder than Classic Wailing Caverns?
    Leveling dungeons? Who cares? But with the right gear there is not much difference. Your class might lack som of the tools needed to clear it as fast as today and you do lack things such as looms but in general, the game is super easy.

    But again, nothing in vanilla even comes close to the raids and dungeons we have today in endgame. And lest be real: WoW is and was always about the max level expereince. Whatever comes befor that is a pointless time sink.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Sure, that can happen. But in a group that knows how the game works you just walk all over the content. Even more so in vaniolla than now.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Leveling dungeons? Who cares? But with the right gear there is not much difference. Your class might lack som of the tools needed to clear it as fast as today and you do lack things such as looms but in general, the game is super easy.

    But again, nothing in vanilla even comes close to the raids and dungeons we have today in endgame. And lest be real: WoW is and was always about the max level expereince. Whatever comes befor that is a pointless time sink.
    The bolded part might possibly be the most disconnected comment ive ever read about vanilla WoW lol. Sure today its all about max level raids and item level, but in the the vanilla era it was all about the journey and dungeons/pvp were far more popular activities than raids.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    The bolded part might possibly be the most disconnected comment ive ever read about vanilla WoW lol. Sure today its all about max level raids and item level, but in the the vanilla era it was all about the journey and dungeons/pvp were far more popular activities than raids.
    No, leveling was crap back then, just as it is now. The goal was always to get to max level as fast as possible and get to do the raids and BG's.
    At least for me and the people I played with.

    But thats matters little. The original statment still stands: Vanilla was super easy. You just sucked.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    The bolded part might possibly be the most disconnected comment ive ever read about vanilla WoW lol. Sure today its all about max level raids and item level, but in the the vanilla era it was all about the journey and dungeons/pvp were far more popular activities than raids.
    Is that why everyone remembers Nihilum, Death and Taxes, Curse and a few other big raiding guilds from the first days till a couple expansions after and their world firstyness and only certain people per server know the "PvPers" with the occasional stupid ass youtube "PvP" video?

    99% of players sucked in Vanilla as they suck now.

    WoW has always been about raiding, everything before is a pointless waste of time, they just have dungeons too, not everything can be a raid.
    Last edited by potis; 2019-05-21 at 04:30 AM.

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