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  1. #401
    Vanilla dungeons had several redeeming qualities, but many think they were mostly time-consuming and confusing to navigate. Let me take you back to a different era...

    You can't talk about old school dungeons without mentioning Blackrock Depths. Crocolisk Brain. The dark iron city was a piece of art; players would visit the underground maze many times before they reached max level, and again later on. Layered exploration was the name of the game, as you would unlock a bit more content everytime you revisited the instance.

    Once I was thinking of making a list of all the things its used for, shit you can do and use it for in all kind of shenaningans, and its mindboggling really, how many stuff there is. and the more you play vanilla the more you know all the application, from various farms and applications for different classes, various routes, stealth runs, arena runs, arena random bosses spawn is really interesting and unique on its own, lava runs, ace of elems farm, regs for different things, dark iron ore runs, blacksmithing forge, enchant regs, recipes, bag, bis items, t0.5 chain and so on. a lot more. its literally INSANE.

    ...and that's how it was back then. Strange, isn't it?

  2. #402
    Classic dungeons and raids weren't hard as far as mechanics, players were just dumb or new to the game. This was back when not standing in the fire was an actual problem rather than a light hearted joke. A big downside of classic servers is that the state of the game has been brought back, but that sense of discovery, wonder, and a general lack of the game's knowledge can never be revived or reverted. There are thousands of guides on every aspect of the game from vanilla to modern, everyone has fully explored all ends of Azeroth and beyond, communities are much less disjointed and disconnected from each other now, and we as players are a lot smarter about the ins and outs of the game, especially with instance mechanics.

    WoW is far too meta now in gameplay and development, so everything is a lot easier than nostalgia boys remember it. Also it's beta, it could be a simple balancing issue that's a part of the problem.
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  3. #403
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    --- snip ---
    Oh, boy!.. you didn’t compare/argue about progress in that conversation, but about content, this was the point of my comment. Therefore, it's necessary to compare it with LFR, it's there where you already receiving all content. I have already explained about progress - it's not tied to your available content due to RNG+forge mechanics, so you can get "inappropriate" items (= progress) without participating in specific (often more difficult for you if oriented on old design "progress stage", because then it was associated with specific content, but now there is no such concept) stuff, which you're trying to address me.

    For reference: last boss killing at any level of complexity, taking into account current design, is the end of “raid” content (doesn't metter if it M or LFR), and progress due to budding it out as separate concept is now associated exclusively with set of BIS gear for current expansion stage (in some sense, it also did before, but it was limited by “content” earlier - steps of testing your abilities and accumulated knowledge/motility/social factor (friends' help/buying), but now it's not - no reason, no motivation, apparently, challenge is clearly not working when it only one motivator, curiosity/interest and envy are much stronger ones).

    Therefore, you get all final content in LFR, and progress continues by freebie “hatching” daily/weekly quests and by going to easiest of "profitable" mystics available to you (not you, but average player, also, judging by forum, not only average...) - with minimal for you labor costs (= you get progress in exchange for subscription, very slow and almost uncontrollable (what is also absolutely true for those who're truly involved in difficultest progress stages), but... which cancels bar for your skills that you had to overcome back then), which still “keeps” you with its accessibility until you realize that you're mired in routine of useless progress for you in terms of content, and then you'll understand that this all turns into challenge/E-sports, which not driving by curiosity or interest in content meaning, this could be enough for someone especially if game holds gameplay bar, but somehow I strongly doubt this last in relation to current game *looking at even if not accurate, but assumptions regarding subscribers number*

    For example, Ulduar had system of difficulties that was implemented without use of additional modes: optional bosses with additional part of “history” (quests, dialogues etc.), additional not only mechanical, but meaning parts of encounters. Even HFC had hiden true kill of Archimonde, but unfortunately it wasn't 1 moment in just whole battle, but also in whole raid in general, therefore element, albeit correct, but still is very insignificant, besides, there is no sense in hiding it by “mode” when it can be realized directly through battle conditions, players actions.

    I absolutely agree that these are really two completely different game concepts now, but this wasn't case before, this is what I'm trying to explain to you - this is artificial separation, it shouldn't happen. Content stages should be inextricably linked with progress stages, and all together it will be called expansion progress.

    ps. And what does my progress mean here? We're talking about system as a whole. I have never concealed, but on contrary, repeatedly stressed that I stoped play since 2015 (though the reason for this was somewhat more unique, see signature), only this doesn't prevent me from talking about design principles, since these're universal concepts (in fact, my participation in this began only after we were promised Classic). If you'd talk about specific location/rotation, or about behavior in particular encounter, element of battle (eg. GCD discussion), I'd not even get in your debate.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-03-04 at 06:55 AM.
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  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Leveling dungeons? Who cares? But with the right gear there is not much difference. Your class might lack som of the tools needed to clear it as fast as today and you do lack things such as looms but in general, the game is super easy.
    Lacking tools, HP, mana, damage, armor and healing at the same time there actually exist mechanics you need to pay attention to and deal with. In the Wailing Caverns example, mob druids casting sleep on the healer is surely nothing to worry about, or how about the serpentwings casting fear on the tank? Sure sounds like things you can just plow through with.
    Last edited by Dergiab; 2019-05-21 at 06:16 AM.

  5. #405
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    "people with 15 years of nostalgia, clouded by experiencing poor imitations suddenly realize something wasn't as hardcore as they remember it was"
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  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    What do you guys think about this?

    I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

    I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?
    Cant compare apples to oranges man in relation to experience and what to expect. Plus its in Beta right now and those things can be adjusted.

  7. #407
    Dungeon were hard because you had a shaman tanking, healed by a shadow priest who prefered to dps. The warrior in the group didn't had a shield, and basically in the end every one was doing every role.

  8. #408
    People who are playing it now, and certainly those who are streaming it are all those mega hardcore gamers who play wow for living. It's fine that those people are having an easy time, really.

  9. #409
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    I wonder if Blizzard will do beta raids, maybe even just MC, allowing players to roll a premade 60 at a certain gear level to gauge the difficulty. I know it's not a perfect test because beta testers =! you specifically, but I wonder if they might decide to adjust numbers based on the level of difficulty in the raid. I guess it kind of depends on how long they want the phases be; no point in having an average group still banging their head in MC right as another phase comes out, but at the same time you don't want people getting bored too quickly, at least in the context of being max level and raiding.
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  10. #410
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    I never struggled in dungeons while leveling, not until BC. The illusion that dungeons were mega hard is a combination of nostalgia from when you were younger and worse at the game, and private servers that intentionally buffed these dungeons.

  11. #411
    The difficulty of vanilla dungeons were the players or the lack of knowledge. Only real dangerous situation are adds, which happen because people dont pay attention or dont know their routes.

    There still will be plenty of wipes because someone adds some pack.

  12. #412
    As someone who played back then....sounds about right.

    Classic dungeons were never that crazy. What made them hard was that people leveling often didn't know enough about the game to play correctly or understand things like DPS rotations and other game mechanics. If you got a full 5-man party of people who knew what they were doing, they were cakewalks all the way into dead Strath and Scholo runs which I think were the most "challenging" 5 man.

    I'm not even sure where the illusion that classic dungeons were ever particularly hard came from. The first time I remember thinking a dungeon was hard is BC heroics, up until then it was fairly standard stuff. As long as you had a tank that knew how to hold AoE threat, DPS that knew how to use AoE damage spells and a healer that knew about spell ranks and mana management they were always really simple.

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    As someone who played back then....sounds about right.

    Classic dungeons were never that crazy. What made them hard was that people leveling often didn't know enough about the game to play correctly or understand things like DPS rotations and other game mechanics. If you got a full 5-man party of people who knew what they were doing, they were cakewalks all the way into dead Strath and Scholo runs which I think were the most "challenging" 5 man.

    I'm not even sure where the illusion that classic dungeons were ever particularly hard came from. The first time I remember thinking a dungeon was hard is BC heroics, up until then it was fairly standard stuff. As long as you had a tank that knew how to hold AoE threat, DPS that knew how to use AoE damage spells and a healer that knew about spell ranks and mana management they were always really simple.
    QFT

    I don't recall anyone ever claiming back in the day that Vanilla dungeons were too hard. Mostly it took time to put together groups in that zone (usually ask in zone chat while doing quests), but most runs went just fine.

  14. #414
    There wasn't much difficult in the dungeons from 1-about 45. Once you hit Blackrock Depths it did take a bit more planning but they weren't killer. Dungeons like UBRS, LBRS, Scholomance were more challenging as they were really 5-10 person raids with how big the dungeons were. UBRS and LBRS was one giant sprawling dungeon that you could completely conquer if you so chose too. These required more CC, focused puls, etc.

    Right now the beta is level 1-30, that content was never meant to be brutually challenging. I believe RFK (or is it RFD?) was the first real dungeon where a challenge comes into play. We won't see that till the level cap is moved.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    Lacking tools, HP, mana, damage, armor and healing at the same time there actually exist mechanics you need to pay attention to and deal with. In the Wailing Caverns example, mob druids casting sleep on the healer is surely nothing to worry about, or how about the serpentwings casting fear on the tank? Sure sounds like things you can just plow through with.
    Haha. I litteraly did WC an hour ago. It's silly easy and I mean SILLY.
    Go away.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Teph View Post
    The difficulty of vanilla dungeons were the players or the lack of knowledge. Only real dangerous situation are adds, which happen because people dont pay attention or dont know their routes.

    There still will be plenty of wipes because someone adds some pack.
    I'd say the difficulty is the level range.

    eg.
    Gnomeregan starts with level 24/25 mobs and progresses up to a level 32 boss. You go in there with 5 level 26's or so you're gonna breeze through the start but that pack of 3 level 30 Dark Iron saboteurs or w/e the name is towards the final corridor to Thermaplugg is going to be problematic when poly is resistsed first 3 casts and the tank misses as often as he hits... But doing Gnomer at level 30 means 90% of the instance is a waste of time, so who would bother?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
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  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I'd say the difficulty is the level range.

    eg.
    Gnomeregan starts with level 24/25 mobs and progresses up to a level 32 boss. You go in there with 5 level 26's or so you're gonna breeze through the start but that pack of 3 level 30 Dark Iron saboteurs or w/e the name is towards the final corridor to Thermaplugg is going to be problematic when poly is resistsed first 3 casts and the tank misses as often as he hits... But doing Gnomer at level 30 means 90% of the instance is a waste of time, so who would bother?
    Going in with a group at least within a 3-level range of the final boss is a pretty safe bet assuming nobody plays terribly, using your above scenario 5 29's should be fine.

  18. #418
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    I wonder if Blizzard will do beta raids, maybe even just MC, allowing players to roll a premade 60 at a certain gear level to gauge the difficulty. I know it's not a perfect test because beta testers =! you specifically, but I wonder if they might decide to adjust numbers based on the level of difficulty in the raid. I guess it kind of depends on how long they want the phases be; no point in having an average group still banging their head in MC right as another phase comes out, but at the same time you don't want people getting bored too quickly, at least in the context of being max level and raiding.
    They will not be adjusting any numbers for difficulty, even if it is easy. That said, they may very well do some beta raiding.

  19. #419
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    I have no idea who those people watching streamers. That's pretty dumb thing to do! There might be exceptions like watching high level PvP player to learn from him. But popular streamers don't do anything worth of watching, they just play. I watched some beta streamers a little bit, just because I can't play classic, but I would never do that if I would have an access! People are so weird!

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneer View Post
    Going in with a group at least within a 3-level range of the final boss is a pretty safe bet assuming nobody plays terribly, using your above scenario 5 29's should be fine.
    Yeah and 5 29s are gonna be "wasting time" up to Electrocutioner, pretty much. The only way early dungeons become "hard" is when you're the right level for the start but not the end, was all my point was. Hell Deadmines starts at 15/16 and ends at 21, the end of Deadmines can be tricky (boatwheel/cannon glitch notwithstanding) when you're all level 17 when you get there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    I have no idea who those people watching streamers... I watched some beta streamers a little bit
    Uh-huh.... kinda looks like you answered yourself there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
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