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  1. #501
    They're supposed to be easy. The reason why people remember them being difficult is because everyone was a noob back then.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    sure, without Dreadnaught taunt chance improvement set bonus or sufficient frost resist gear 4HM and Saff will be very difficult.

    That is not really the encounters themselves being difficult though, because they aren't (Yes, I did both of them in vanilla)
    This is a faulty argument. Sure, modern encounters may have more mechanics but bosses in Naxx, AQ40 etc. still had plenty of mechanics; adding more complexity and orders to follow is a form of difficulty but not the only one.

    In my experience, the majority of guilds raiding in vanilla were undergeared and often didn't have the optimal classes for each encounter. (you could also say there were a proportion of inexperienced/inoptimal players that needed to be carried - but this should be a natural thing as people have to learn etc.) So although the tuning for 40mans was quite gentle, most guilds came at them from a position of weakness which meant a lot of players had to maximise their performance in everyway, and thus it became quite difficult.

    So although there may be some objective metric by which the raids were easier, in practice they were actually rather challenging.

  3. #503
    But low level dungeons were easy? We'd wade through wailing caverns killing random shit with voidwalker pet tanks and no proper healers.

    BRD hall with the stupid fires might be a bit challenging at low gear levels, and doing the UD Strath gauntlet with only 5 people was a challenge. But if you expected wailing caverns to sodomize you, well you might be expecting too much.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    You already said 2 weeks... so.... so how are you being lenient by... making it 2 weeks...? do you mean 3 weeks?

    his claim of it being cleared day 1 was what it is on private servers.
    My statement of this bet was in response to a poster claiming it may be cleared day 1 on official classic. I stretched that “day 1” to 2 weeks to give some room for error. Not my fault if someone replies with private server data on a classic wow discussion

  5. #505
    TBF, in some people's defence. Earlier versions of vanilla were in fact harder, Blizz repeatedly nerfed tf out of dungs and mobs over its course, some dungeons were pretty much overhauled. So plenty of legit vanilla players remember earlier versions of the game because that's when they're actively levelling.

    So people were way worse at the game, earlier versions were harder than 1.11-1.12, as the result people feel that vanilla wow was super hard, but in reality it wasn't super hard, it's okay, but 1.11/12 is the easiest version of vanilla, and it's also the most short-lived one, TBC was looming, heck, people even gave up on Naxx because of it. So most people don't even remember 1.11-1.12, that's like last 6 months of vanilla.

    I think that's why so many legit vanilla players are genuinely surprised by the easiness of Classic.

  6. #506
    "You think you do but you don't"

  7. #507
    They never were hard, they were simply gear checks since most of your tanks mitigation is just having high enough armor/def stats. Same as your healer, all dependent on gear. The dungeon will be as easy/hard as your group is equipped. Mechanics are non existent.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    At least part of the difficulty in some of these dungeons that people probably remember came from the huge level range in some of the earlier ones. Deadmines was 15-25. You get quests for it at 15, but the mobs and bosses toward the end are around level 25. If you're trying to put a group together, you'll probably end up with some people in the 16-18 range, which is fine at the beginning of the dungeon, but as you get further in you start missing most attacks and things get prohibitively difficult. A lot of the people you're seeing do it on streams now are going in with people they know who also know about the level requirement. If you do Deadmines with people who are level appropriate for mobs and bosses at the end, it'll be relatively easy if you don't do anything dumb. If you try it earlier (or are forced to due to who's available to go), it'll be harder.
    A lot of the quests were designed to just go in for the one item/boss and come back another time which was silly. Sometimes it was like wtf again why couldn't you have told me to kill that guy while I was there?

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Erous View Post
    I'll add that TBC per-nerf heroic dungeons were, imo, the hardest dungeons ever. Nothing like having all melee mobs 360 cleave.
    I hate you for bringing back bad memories in tbc.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    They never were hard, they were simply gear checks since most of your tanks mitigation is just having high enough armor/def stats. Same as your healer, all dependent on gear. The dungeon will be as easy/hard as your group is equipped. Mechanics are non existent.
    And thats how it should be. Gear should be huge factor. Also retail have lot of mechanics but you can pretty much ignore them all and aoe pull pretty much nonstop.

  11. #511
    Old God Low Hanging Fruit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marston View Post
    Those were outdoor mobs though and the concern so far (which seems to be no concern) is that something is wrong with elite mobs or at least dungeon elites.
    Blizzard confirmed the numbers are correct. If I have to choose someone in this argument I kind of have to side with Blizzard even if they are the evil empire. They have an actual database. PS admit to educated guesses. The outdoor mobs to show confirmation that PSers were wrong in the educated guesses, even if they were decent, and usually on the lower end. It might not be a direct answer to elites in 5 mans but it is a pattern that's recognizable at the very least. It gives me comfort enough to project benefit of the doubt and I see no reason to tinfoil hat on the matter. In either case I am happy people reported it for Blizzard to check because thats a good thing. But the matter is pretty much put to rest. Unless we want to enter the realm of conspiracy which I guess you might.

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    You don't go into dungeons in classic for XP, you go there to get loot that will carry you 10 levels while leveling in the world. leveling through dungeons is the absolute slowest you can do, including just grinding mobs.
    Not sure what part of my post referenced going there for XP. By your own argument it's better to get the instance done as soon as the quest for the blue reward becomes available, so lvl 14 for DM and lvl 24 I think for Gnomer (as the examples chosen), because the rewards are pretty strong for, like you say, 10 levels or w/e. Those instances can get tricky towards the end if approached at that level, and it is *there* that the only "difficulty" in low level dungeons occurs. Going into a low level dungeon at the "appropriate" (i.e. over levelled judging from dev standards - 20 for DM wtf?) level is a walk in the park in every case. Basically right up until endgame.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentinian View Post
    So although there may be some objective metric by which the raids were easier, in practice they were actually rather challenging.
    Quite - who had a harder time raiding heroics and then mythics, the dude in the guild of other mythic level players or the mythic level player in the guild of scrubs? Particularly relevant to healing I felt (although not raided since WoD maybe the landscape is far removed).
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Brexit: it's the dumbest WWE plotline to ever escape into real-life that can't end soon enough because everyone hates how it started, how it's going and how its going to end.
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Trebuchets new meta.

  13. #513
    It’s better to be easy so we can geared faster and start raiding.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    They never were hard, they were simply gear checks since most of your tanks mitigation is just having high enough armor/def stats. Same as your healer, all dependent on gear. The dungeon will be as easy/hard as your group is equipped. Mechanics are non existent.
    And that's how the game was designed. You played content to get gear, so you could play higher level content and get gear for even higher level content. The game was never about learning dance moves around the bosses or doing a somersault when the floor turns red under your feet. Classic is not an action game.

  15. #515
    Yes and no. Yes, it’s true mechanic wise live wow has more to deal with than all of vanilla dungeons combined. However, they were more difficult than live in one important aspect...being unforgiving.

    Example: in live as a MT I can screw up half a dozen times and we can overcome it. I can forget my cds and I’ll be a ok. It’s way more forgiving, even with more mechanics and dangers.

    Classic is more dark souls in a way where it’s firm but fair in its difficulty and there’s not much forgiveness if they screw up you die and wipe

    So yes and no. Mechanics wise no, practically yes

  16. #516
    Herald of the Titans Marston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Blizzard confirmed the numbers are correct. If I have to choose someone in this argument I kind of have to side with Blizzard even if they are the evil empire. They have an actual database. PS admit to educated guesses. The outdoor mobs to show confirmation that PSers were wrong in the educated guesses, even if they were decent, and usually on the lower end. It might not be a direct answer to elites in 5 mans but it is a pattern that's recognizable at the very least. It gives me comfort enough to project benefit of the doubt and I see no reason to tinfoil hat on the matter. In either case I am happy people reported it for Blizzard to check because thats a good thing. But the matter is pretty much put to rest. Unless we want to enter the realm of conspiracy which I guess you might.
    Don't get me wrong, I am on Blizzard's side here.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalerender View Post
    But low level dungeons were easy? We'd wade through wailing caverns killing random shit with voidwalker pet tanks and no proper healers.

    BRD hall with the stupid fires might be a bit challenging at low gear levels, and doing the UD Strath gauntlet with only 5 people was a challenge. But if you expected wailing caverns to sodomize you, well you might be expecting too much.
    Yo, the lyceum(the room you're talking about) in BRD was super annoying. Far and away the hardest thing in that dungeon. I actually look forward to doing a Dire Maul North tribute run. Though it does remind me that very few items helped mages more than making them a better water cooler before dire maul or raids.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Not sure what part of my post referenced going there for XP. By your own argument it's better to get the instance done as soon as the quest for the blue reward becomes available, so lvl 14 for DM and lvl 24 I think for Gnomer (as the examples chosen), because the rewards are pretty strong for, like you say, 10 levels or w/e. Those instances can get tricky towards the end if approached at that level, and it is *there* that the only "difficulty" in low level dungeons occurs. Going into a low level dungeon at the "appropriate" (i.e. over levelled judging from dev standards - 20 for DM wtf?) level is a walk in the park in every case. Basically right up until endgame.

    - - - Updated - - -
    A blue drop from a dungeon is gonna be relevant regardless if you are at the appropriate level or not. Classic WoW was generally "gear matters" philosophy, some items last you for a very long time. That's why a group of +4 levels and has green mobs is still gonna get relevant rewards. XP is not a relevant reward even if all mobs are yellow-orange, except the Dungeon Quest(s).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    And thats how it should be. Gear should be huge factor. Also retail have lot of mechanics but you can pretty much ignore them all and aoe pull pretty much nonstop.
    Live Classic will be vastly different to the BIS lvl 30 characters they have right now in beta. A full green/white equipped tank is gonna get crushed and if the healer is also in DPS gear it's gonna be very tough with lots of CC and most likely some wipes. And yes, I agree that's how it makes sense. There will be a lot of "tanks" and "healers" that just equip a shield and go tank. That's where the difficulty will come from during lvling.
    Last edited by Qnubi; 2019-05-22 at 01:22 PM.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Blizzard confirmed the numbers are correct. If I have to choose someone in this argument I kind of have to side with Blizzard even if they are the evil empire. They have an actual database. PS admit to educated guesses. The outdoor mobs to show confirmation that PSers were wrong in the educated guesses, even if they were decent, and usually on the lower end. It might not be a direct answer to elites in 5 mans but it is a pattern that's recognizable at the very least. It gives me comfort enough to project benefit of the doubt and I see no reason to tinfoil hat on the matter. In either case I am happy people reported it for Blizzard to check because thats a good thing. But the matter is pretty much put to rest. Unless we want to enter the realm of conspiracy which I guess you might.
    Many pservers apparently made elites/dungeon mobs and bosses deliberately harder too, probably because a lot of people remember them being a lot harder their first time than they really were.

    It's easy to forget that everyone was once a noob keyboard turner when you're chest deep in end game raiding.
    And some people.... unfortunately never leave that stage.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Blizzard confirmed the numbers are correct. If I have to choose someone in this argument I kind of have to side with Blizzard even if they are the evil empire. They have an actual database. PS admit to educated guesses. The outdoor mobs to show confirmation that PSers were wrong in the educated guesses, even if they were decent, and usually on the lower end. It might not be a direct answer to elites in 5 mans but it is a pattern that's recognizable at the very least. It gives me comfort enough to project benefit of the doubt and I see no reason to tinfoil hat on the matter. In either case I am happy people reported it for Blizzard to check because thats a good thing. But the matter is pretty much put to rest. Unless we want to enter the realm of conspiracy which I guess you might.
    I've watched quite a few old vanilla videos on youtube and it really seems the tuning in beta is about right. I believe it looks so easy in beta because those streamers have run every single dungeon and are very well geared, and they overleveled some of the dungeons by 5+ levels. Some of them are terrible players or they are focusing more on streaming, not playing, yet they can recover from severe mistakes without wipe quite often. This also supports my theory of them being just very well geared rather than mobs being too weak.

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