Everyone in the beta reporting that dungeons are REALLY easy :(

[Fred Skinner]

And here is one big problem with modern version of dungeons. Difficulty levels. Mythic+ is challenging and super hard compared to classic dungeons but flaw is in order to make them hard you have to start scaling difficulty sliders. And difficulty sliders are not mmorpg feature what should be in any proper mmo game. Everyhing should have 1 set difficulty and that difficulty should be at level of mythic 10. No timers, no corridors, just slow challenging dungeon crawl in really big *** dungeon with secrets, rare bosses and crafting material, etc... This what makes dungeons and raids in classic appealing. Fact they do not have difficulty levels. You do dungeon or not there is nothing between. No easy mods, no lfr, no lfg, nothing. And as long as Blizz will segment game into bazillions of difficulty levels end game of classic will be always more appealing regardless if content is hard or not.

Well in the end we all know what slowly killed off most of wow community. Acessability. Classic lacks that and brings exclusivity which is huge iniciative to do content itself

So much for elitism. For a mainstream MMORPG.

Classic dungeons are not really exclusive to anyone, as they are easy. As like everything in classic, the real brick wall is time effort, and not skill effort. The time effort to find a tank in the LFG chat in a major city. The time effort to travel to the dungeon. 1 hour plus 20 minutes just spamming a chat channel and doing the trip to the dungeon.

Thats not immersive, that is time spent for nothing.

[Deficineiron]

so apparently asmongold + group cleared SM armory as 30's. There is a reddit post linking damage to a 60 war vid from herod doing more normal damage there vs. crits/crushes on asmon.

was clearing 8-9 levels below possible at all in actual classic? Was it done? Any videos (one would think this would have been recorded)?

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Keep in mind we're talking twinked out 30s who did quests multiple zones too high via viewer raids.

[deniter]

so apparently asmongold + group cleared SM armory as 30's. There is a reddit post linking damage to a 60 war vid from herod doing more normal damage there vs. crits/crushes on asmon.

was clearing 8-9 levels below possible at all in actual classic? Was it done? Any videos (one would think this would have been recorded)?

I think the SM run looks about right. It was possible to kill skull level mobs but since it was faster and a lot easier to run dungeons at more appropriate level people usually refused to do so. Also, most tanks expected some wipes to happen and they refused to tank orange and red level dungeons because of repair bill they had to pay.

Asmongold hits 5 level higher mobs for 6 dmg with his ww axe, which also looks about right. Anyone having runs like this in live game are either trying to prove something or are desperately after a certain item.

[Big Thanks]

dungeons weren't hard. they were easy AF.

Seems people have the memory of a goldfsh :P

goldfish remember stuff from 15 years ago?

heck i cant even remember wotlk...only a few selected things.

[Eldar45]

Didn't play in classic and have only really been watching Preach tank dungeons so I'm gonna just leave a few opinions.

1. These dungeons are harder than any normal dungeon right now.
2. These are the low level dungeons. They will be getting harder (As you can tell in Preach's videos.)

[Tojara]

None of the dungeons are that hard. We did wipe twice in Gnomeregan, but that was only at the end working our way down to the last boss. Why? Well, our choice to bring a 26 rogue, who, because of his level would proxy aggro things on the other side of the trench leading down to the last boss, in addition to the stuff in it.

I echoed this multiple times in this thread, but level appropriate dungeons are very easy. If you start bringing anything but a hunter (more on this later) to an instance where mobs are 4+ levels higher, it's going to be difficult for a lot of reasons. +3 mob level is essentially fighting things that are boss level across the entire instance. This is doable, but not ideal. I forget the formula, but miss, dodge/parry, resists and glancing blows keep scaling upwards the higher the level difference becomes. For a lot of melee, this means the majority of your damage is going to be a miss/dodge, and your auto attacks that land are going to be heavily penalized by glancing blows. Essentially, you're rolling the dice hoping for crits, but they don't happen often with low level gear. Same goes for casters. All you're going to see is attacks resisting and barely doing any damage.

Tanking becomes difficult when facing higher level mobs because the same holds true as it does for DPS. It's hard for your attacks to hit, and when they do it does very little damage. Threat becomes a nightmare, and you're going to be eating critical strikes and crushing blows frequently.

Most mobs and bosses in Vanilla have very few abilities, or very straight forward abilities. You can kite nearly every mob in Vanilla WoW, especially if you use height to your advantage in certain dungeons to force mobs to take a long trek around, only for you to jump down and cause them to run the exact opposite direction.

If you want to get around the +4 to +9 mob level differential, bring hunters. There attacks can't glance, nor can their attacks be dodged/parried. Their attacks can only miss, so the difference between them and any other class while fighting mobs you shouldn't be fighting is immense. That 26 rogue in our Gnomeregan essentially did 0 damage to the last couple bosses, and was pretty useless for the trash on the way. If it had been a hunter, it really wouldn't have mattered that much.

So yeah, clearing dungeons and mobs at +8 to +9 level is super possible, but it's time consuming. We two manned my whirlwind axe on beta as hunter/warrior. All I did was spam hamstring, while the hunter did all the damage. It would take a lot of time, and kiting to certain areas, but you could do Armory/Cathedral if you did a setup with multiple hunters, tank and a healer.

[Heathy]

I distinctly remember healing dungeons got harder with tbc heroics, thats not to say, some groups in classic were wipe fests i'm sure i died many times in dungeons but in terms of difficulty I do remember that there was a point where it went from some-what casual healing to practically what its like today, a spam fest. I do remember even normal tbc dungeons were more challenging than classics 5 mans especially some of them like arcatraz and shadow labs. but the heroics is where the game changed into what its like today. at least for healers anyway that is for sure where it changed. there was nothing in classic that I did that even came close to healing pre-nerf tbc heroics. like raid scale damage in 5 mans. shattered halls was another one when your tank was just starting heroics and getting smashed. keeping the tank alive was probably at its hardest point then. I think that initial tuning was brutal and it very much required CC in some places. later on it got easier but there were always places that would be notorious for causing wipes. like that double big dude pull in underbog heroic by the first boss. I wonder how many ppl got destroyed by those two mobs because i remember that pull was practically untankable at the start.

[Whistl3r]

Another thread caused by lack of common sense, private servers and just bad memory.
The mobs hit for the same amount of damage, have the same health. Players abilities do the same damage and have the same health. Nothing has changed in that respect. What makes a dungeon hard is being under-geared, not really knowing the best way to play your class, the mobs abilities and the best route through the dungeon. 15 years of experience and 1000s of dungeon runs later we are smashing through them, simple as that.

[Dequanacus]

People grew hyper competent regarding dungeons due to understanding of CC/gearing which became the focus of retail. People became lazy and impatient regarding leveling due to mass aoe/pack pulling which became the standard of retail.
Vanilla is not very difficult it just had a different playerbase. Years of private servers demonstrated this and this exact sentiment has been said for years.

[crusadernero]

Its old content thats been done and seen(twitch/youtube) a billion times already. wow classic were never really HARD in the dungeons. Yeah it went slower in the dungeon. Yeah you had to be careful with pulls, often CC a few mobs. And the long dungeons often took time.

A nice example is gnomeregan. In classic its not really hard, but it takes time to clear it. Be a bit more careful. In retail? You just roflstomp it without careful pulls, CC or communication.

People in beta are decently geared for dungeon runs and is probably "better" than the average players in every aspect of a MMO.

Overall, the dungeons were never really hard except for a few at max lvl. Its just that alot of stuff just takes time. Prep and get ready before dungeon and then actually clearing it is the job.

[Ange]

there was nothing in classic that I did that even came close to healing pre-nerf tbc heroics. like raid scale damage in 5 mans. shattered halls was another one when your tank was just starting heroics and getting smashed. keeping the tank alive was probably at its hardest point then. I think that initial tuning was brutal and it very much required CC in some places.

If all you do is baby-pulls in dungeon, every expansion might seem "easy" but its a colossal waste of time for everyone.

Vanilla dungeons were not that easy if you did not overgear it and still wanted to do some efficient pulls. The classic streamers right now, who barely manage to do a BfA 10+ in time are doing 2-3 mob pulls and call it easy. Ridiculous.

Things like shattered halls were just "difficult" because most tanks were really really bad and could not handle more than 2-3 mob pulls at once. So you saw things like 2-3 mages per PUG to break down the big pulls. If we are beeing honest, the only thing the big pulls needed was a simple stun or AoE fear (shadow) to give the tank 3-4 seconds time to pick all mobs up (no aoe tank mechanics) or patient DPS.

Players who had issues with TBC dungeons, had issues with challenge modes and still have issues with a simple timed M+ key. If you did vanilla dungeons with propper (big) pulls, you had the same issues with bad players, like you have today in BfA.

Whats next? Complaining about the 45 min stratholme baron run?
Reality check: you could do the baron run without a priest-heal and with no tank while normaly geared. A non-tank baron run was just like doing a weekly 10+ with a R.IO 200 tank. Not faceroll easy but nothing special either.

[Heathy]

If all you do is baby-pulls in dungeon, every expansion might seem "easy" but its a colossal waste of time for everyone.

Vanilla dungeons were not that easy

they were when I started doing them in 2005, why? because you could take 15 ppl into strath and scholo. they were easy, was it harder when they were forced 5 mans, marginally so. the first stratholme run I did was with my 57 hunter and it was 15 man.
I don't think anyone cared how big ppls dicks were back then, I know i still don't give a crap about any sort of eltistist stuff, clearing things in certain times, waste of times, my dick is bigger than your dick etc etc, i don't have time for that bullshit.

what i do know is that in terms of raw difficulty, the dungeons in tbc were much harder than the dungeons in classic. the mobs hit harder and perhaps it was mostly down to being undergeared, but there hasn't been a time in the game since then where you were that undergeared after farming normals. challenge modes and m+ didn't exist in tbc, so i'm not sure what you mean by that. not that challenge modes were key to any sort of progression.

I started doing end game dungeons in classic at 55 or 56, you don't really even need to be max level to start doing lbrs and dm east its doable without even being 60. at least it was in 1.12. you can start getting level 60 pieces without even being 60. I think when i started doing heroics they were harder than karazhan. kara was actually easier than 5 man heroics for a while. sure the bosses were more challenging, but the recovery was better. having 2 or 3 healers made it much easier than doing basically the same thing with 1 healer. if the healer died for some reason in heroic it was a wipe but in karazhan you had buffer so that made it somewhat easier. zul aman I enjoyed, that was tuned extremely well at the time I thought. even in t5 it was still kinda challenging if you wanted to do the timer it didn't really allow for slacking. but this difference is noticeable, anything in classic vs zul aman for example. comparing zul aman to ubrs for example, both 10 mans, leagues apart in difficulty. even comparing a fresh 60 ubrs run to a t4 zul aman run, you've got a much greater chance of breezing through ubrs than you do za.

[Mikelev]

Ill read into this...

[Magnagarde]

They were always easy. It was harder to get a group of people with the right class and spec composition that have a clue of what's going on.

[anon5123]

Why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult?

Furthermore, why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult for people who are already experienced with the game?

I seriously don't understand people whining about vanilla being easy like this. It's a fucking 15 year old game, no shit it's going to be easy

[KaPe]

Why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult?

Because they bought into "levelling took several months and was an amazing journey" narrative - and if a large part of that time is actually easy, it might turn out they weren't such elite vanilla players after all. Defending their flawed memories about the difficulty is directly tied to defending their egos.

[Hubbl3]

Why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult?

Because some people have this weird mindset that classic was the pinnacle of challenge and everything after that is just easy. Why do you think people always cite that 4HM was the most hardcore raidboss ever which took month to clear while today's Jaina dies within 1 ID and therefor has to be extremely easy. Expect more threads like this after MC is cleared (except Ragnaros) the day it's released and Raggi dies as soon as they can put out all the runes. And then when BWL is cleared within 1 day after release. And so on.

[wargone]

It almost like. Players have 15 year of experinse.. And Retail is harder then classic ever was, so if you can do retail you sure can do classic. if you can dodge a wench you sure can dodge a Vanila dodgeball..
Also, Only the fairly "advance" players are in the beta, so pretty far from the avage, and below avage players. so when the best of the best Doing the easyest content, with years of experinse. yea.. no big suprise

[ryjkur]

Even I healed everything as shadow while leveling in vanilla and I was a total noob back then, so ofc they are easy now.