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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    If all you do is baby-pulls in dungeon, every expansion might seem "easy" but its a colossal waste of time for everyone.

    Vanilla dungeons were not that easy
    they were when I started doing them in 2005, why? because you could take 15 ppl into strath and scholo. they were easy, was it harder when they were forced 5 mans, marginally so. the first stratholme run I did was with my 57 hunter and it was 15 man.
    I don't think anyone cared how big ppls dicks were back then, I know i still don't give a crap about any sort of eltistist stuff, clearing things in certain times, waste of times, my dick is bigger than your dick etc etc, i don't have time for that bullshit.

    what i do know is that in terms of raw difficulty, the dungeons in tbc were much harder than the dungeons in classic. the mobs hit harder and perhaps it was mostly down to being undergeared, but there hasn't been a time in the game since then where you were that undergeared after farming normals. challenge modes and m+ didn't exist in tbc, so i'm not sure what you mean by that. not that challenge modes were key to any sort of progression.

    I started doing end game dungeons in classic at 55 or 56, you don't really even need to be max level to start doing lbrs and dm east its doable without even being 60. at least it was in 1.12. you can start getting level 60 pieces without even being 60. I think when i started doing heroics they were harder than karazhan. kara was actually easier than 5 man heroics for a while. sure the bosses were more challenging, but the recovery was better. having 2 or 3 healers made it much easier than doing basically the same thing with 1 healer. if the healer died for some reason in heroic it was a wipe but in karazhan you had buffer so that made it somewhat easier. zul aman I enjoyed, that was tuned extremely well at the time I thought. even in t5 it was still kinda challenging if you wanted to do the timer it didn't really allow for slacking. but this difference is noticeable, anything in classic vs zul aman for example. comparing zul aman to ubrs for example, both 10 mans, leagues apart in difficulty. even comparing a fresh 60 ubrs run to a t4 zul aman run, you've got a much greater chance of breezing through ubrs than you do za.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2019-05-24 at 10:01 AM.

  2. #562

  3. #563
    They were always easy. It was harder to get a group of people with the right class and spec composition that have a clue of what's going on.

  4. #564
    Why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult?

    Furthermore, why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult for people who are already experienced with the game?

    I seriously don't understand people whining about vanilla being easy like this. It's a fucking 15 year old game, no shit it's going to be easy
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    LFR saved raiding
    Quote Originally Posted by Haekke View Post
    LFR is not really easy. I would say it's a lot harder thant Mythic Dungeons
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  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult?
    Because they bought into "levelling took several months and was an amazing journey" narrative - and if a large part of that time is actually easy, it might turn out they weren't such elite vanilla players after all. Defending their flawed memories about the difficulty is directly tied to defending their egos.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2019-05-25 at 02:05 AM.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult?
    Because some people have this weird mindset that classic was the pinnacle of challenge and everything after that is just easy. Why do you think people always cite that 4HM was the most hardcore raidboss ever which took month to clear while today's Jaina dies within 1 ID and therefor has to be extremely easy. Expect more threads like this after MC is cleared (except Ragnaros) the day it's released and Raggi dies as soon as they can put out all the runes. And then when BWL is cleared within 1 day after release. And so on.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  7. #567
    It almost like. Players have 15 year of experinse.. And Retail is harder then classic ever was, so if you can do retail you sure can do classic. if you can dodge a wench you sure can dodge a Vanila dodgeball..
    Also, Only the fairly "advance" players are in the beta, so pretty far from the avage, and below avage players. so when the best of the best Doing the easyest content, with years of experinse. yea.. no big suprise

  8. #568
    Even I healed everything as shadow while leveling in vanilla and I was a total noob back then, so ofc they are easy now.

  9. #569
    Players were not as experienced back then.

    When dungeons first came out they were chaotic 'class raids' where you'd take one of each class along so they could each get their dungeon loot. But then they locked most of the down to just 5 players.

    I remember when I first saw a hunter use traps and pulling - it was a revelation.

    Towards the end of classic one of the quests to upgrade your dungeon tier was a Stratholme speed run, the forerunner to challenge mode and mythic+. All things that have basically trained us to be better in 5 mans.. I'd be shocked if dungeons didn't feel easier.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    And then when BWL is cleared within 1 day after release. And so on.
    On pservers, every single newly-released raid gets cleared within 5-6 hours. Yes, including Naxx.

    15 year old game, people. Everyone knows every raid inside and out, and the no-life-neet-hardcores will clear shit day 1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    LFR saved raiding
    Quote Originally Posted by Haekke View Post
    LFR is not really easy. I would say it's a lot harder thant Mythic Dungeons
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  11. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    In other news classic WoW was actually easy and it was just the players that where bad at the time.

    Friendly reminder that when WoW originally launched it was actually the most casual and easy MMO on the market and that's how it gained mass appeal and separated itself from the pack in the first place.

    It's almost like people have been telling you for years there was nothing hard about it, it just lacked QoL features that would be added later. Classic was easier then retail currently is(and probably every xpac for that matter), it just didn't respect your time at all.
    preach it brother, this can't be stated enough, it boggles my mind that people are still so deluded that they think stuff was hard due to the 'rose tinted goggles' effect.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  12. #572
    I dont get the "We're just better now" bit.

    Vanillas skill ceiling is so low that what are you getting better at?
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  13. #573
    People are so used to M+ now that Classic dungeons seem way easier than they were.
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  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Carnedge View Post
    People are so used to M+ now that Classic dungeons seem way easier than they were.
    They were always easy. Even my dumb 13 year old self blasted through the dungeons easily. There were like, half a a dozen level cap or near level cap dungeons that could be called hard, and even then it was more a case of poor balance or just plain length than actual difficulty.

    Classic was never hard. Even back then they commented on how the only difficult part of raids was getting people to raid. What it was, was longer. Full stop.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  15. #575
    Lol people actually think difficulty is just about scripted boss mechanics. Retailers think if there are more mechanics listed in the Adventure Guide it must be harder.

    In Classic the world is actually dangerous, you aren't invincible, that's the big difference. Just getting to a dungeon can be a challenge.

    And so far all we've seen is lower level dungeons, which although not difficult are still more of a challenge than retail (there is a risk of wiping at least).

    Why on earth are you comparing level 20 dungeons to Mythic+, that's straight up retarded.

    I think I trust Venruki, one of the greatest Mages in the game of all time, when he says that the difficulty feels much more rewarding in Classic, over a bunch of retail babbies who have thousands of posts and think that the garbage of BfA is good game design.
    Last edited by WowClassic; 2019-05-25 at 01:05 PM.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    They were always easy. Even my dumb 13 year old self blasted through the dungeons easily. There were like, half a a dozen level cap or near level cap dungeons that could be called hard, and even then it was more a case of poor balance or just plain length than actual difficulty.

    Classic was never hard. Even back then they commented on how the only difficult part of raids was getting people to raid. What it was, was longer. Full stop.
    Never said they weren't easy. Said they seem even easier.

    Not to mention the leveling has been capped at 30 so people are having an even easierier time with them as they get decked out in BiS.

    If you play golf enough, it's going to get easier as you get better. People playing harder dungeons since TBC came out are going to be even better at dungeons than they were in vanilla, really fogging up the nostalgia.
    Last edited by Carnedge; 2019-05-25 at 01:06 PM.
    “He who only speaks in quotes often forgets to think for himself." - Anais
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  17. #577
    I played Cataclysm launch HC dungeons. No dungeons are ever gonna be hard for me again. That was such a shitfest back then.

    What i remember about vanilla dungeons is that i was permanently confused and never knew where to go and that they took so long - but difficult? Not really.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by WowClassic View Post
    Lol people actually think difficulty is just about scripted boss mechanics. Retailers think if there are more mechanics listed in the Adventure Guide it must be harder.

    In Classic the world is actually dangerous, you aren't invincible, that's the big difference. Just getting to a dungeon can be a challenge.

    And so far all we've seen is lower level dungeons, which although not difficult are still more of a challenge than retail (there is a risk of wiping at least).

    Why on earth are you comparing level 20 dungeons to Mythic+, that's straight up retarded.

    I think I trust Venruki, one of the greatest Mages in the game of all time, when he says that the difficulty feels much more rewarding in Classic, over a bunch of retail babbies who have thousands of posts and think that the garbage of BfA is the way an MMO should be.
    The world really isnt that dangerous in vanilla WoW nor are that dungeons that hard to get to. They are TIMELY to get to yes. Like, Shadowfang isnt hard to get to for an Alliance character. It just takes a lot of time to get to.


    There are also a few examples of over tuned mobs (like the defias mages) as well as random elites (The worgen), however these are very big rarities and not indicative of the world as a whole. Honest question, have you yourself played vanilla?

    Hell, said mage is correct. Vanilla is more rewarding. But its because the gratification isnt instant, its more earned, but not in a difficulty sense. You arent automatically grouped with people, that adds value to grouping itself. You dont instantly enter a dungeon, which gives the world a greater sense of scale and immersion. The fights arent hard but they do last longer giving a stronger sense that you're really doing something major. Time is a major thing. Even if it is more difficult and mechanically involved, a 15 minute dead mines run won't be nearly as memorable as an hour long dead mines run.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    The world really isnt that dangerous in vanilla WoW nor are that dungeons that hard to get to. They are TIMELY to get to yes. Like, Shadowfang isnt hard to get to for an Alliance character. It just takes a lot of time to get to.
    So I say something is more dangerous in Classic and your response is: "it's not that dangerous". Do you see how pointless that is? You might has well have rolled your face into the keyboard. It's dangerous enough to feel rewarding, that's all that matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    The world really isnt that dangerous in vanilla WoW nor are that dungeons that hard to get to. They are TIMELY to get to yes. Like, Shadowfang isnt hard to get to for an Alliance character. It just takes a lot of time to get to.

    Hell, said mage is correct. Vanilla is more rewarding. But its because the gratification isnt instant, its more earned, but not in a difficulty sense. You arent automatically grouped with people, that adds value to grouping itself. You dont instantly enter a dungeon, which gives the world a greater sense of scale and immersion. The fights arent hard but they do last longer giving a stronger sense that you're really doing something major. Time is a major thing. Even if it is more difficult and mechanically involved, a 15 minute dead mines run won't be nearly as memorable as an hour long dead mines run.
    Time investment is part of what makes up the difficulty of a challenge, if it wasn't then you'd have to argue that a grind that took a month of played time is easy to accomplish. It's not easy because humans have limited attention spans.

    And once again, we've only seen low level dungeons so far.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by WowClassic View Post
    So I say something is more dangerous in Classic and your response is: "it's not that dangerous". Do you see how pointless that is? You might has well have rolled your face into the keyboard. It's dangerous enough to feel rewarding, that's all that matters.



    Time investment is part of what makes up the difficulty of a challenge, if it wasn't then you'd have to argue that a grind that took a month of played time is easy to accomplish. It's not easy because humans have limited attention spans.

    And once again, we've only seen low level dungeons so far.
    you people have very strange definition of dangerous.

    dangerous is mobs suddenly jumping on you from all over the place and other surprise elements.

    dragging mobs one by one because your mana regen sucks is not dangerous its tedious and boring.

    game is not dangerous because world is dangerous - its just tedious because you have to sit and eat / drink all the time because regen sucks and there is retarded gcd on health/mana potions.

    vanilla is much closer to turn base rpg then any future implementations. because guess what before mmopgs turn based rpgs were a main branch of rpgs in pc/console gaming. hell with enough practice you can have more dynamic battles in FF7 or X then in vanilla -_-

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