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  1. #561
    Stood in the Fire Whistl3r's Avatar
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    Another thread caused by lack of common sense, private servers and just bad memory.
    The mobs hit for the same amount of damage, have the same health. Players abilities do the same damage and have the same health. Nothing has changed in that respect. What makes a dungeon hard is being under-geared, not really knowing the best way to play your class, the mobs abilities and the best route through the dungeon. 15 years of experience and 1000s of dungeon runs later we are smashing through them, simple as that.

  2. #562
    People grew hyper competent regarding dungeons due to understanding of CC/gearing which became the focus of retail. People became lazy and impatient regarding leveling due to mass aoe/pack pulling which became the standard of retail.
    Vanilla is not very difficult it just had a different playerbase. Years of private servers demonstrated this and this exact sentiment has been said for years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  3. #563
    Its old content thats been done and seen(twitch/youtube) a billion times already. wow classic were never really HARD in the dungeons. Yeah it went slower in the dungeon. Yeah you had to be careful with pulls, often CC a few mobs. And the long dungeons often took time.

    A nice example is gnomeregan. In classic its not really hard, but it takes time to clear it. Be a bit more careful. In retail? You just roflstomp it without careful pulls, CC or communication.

    People in beta are decently geared for dungeon runs and is probably "better" than the average players in every aspect of a MMO.

    Overall, the dungeons were never really hard except for a few at max lvl. Its just that alot of stuff just takes time. Prep and get ready before dungeon and then actually clearing it is the job.

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    there was nothing in classic that I did that even came close to healing pre-nerf tbc heroics. like raid scale damage in 5 mans. shattered halls was another one when your tank was just starting heroics and getting smashed. keeping the tank alive was probably at its hardest point then. I think that initial tuning was brutal and it very much required CC in some places.
    If all you do is baby-pulls in dungeon, every expansion might seem "easy" but its a colossal waste of time for everyone.

    Vanilla dungeons were not that easy if you did not overgear it and still wanted to do some efficient pulls. The classic streamers right now, who barely manage to do a BfA 10+ in time are doing 2-3 mob pulls and call it easy. Ridiculous.

    Things like shattered halls were just "difficult" because most tanks were really really bad and could not handle more than 2-3 mob pulls at once. So you saw things like 2-3 mages per PUG to break down the big pulls. If we are beeing honest, the only thing the big pulls needed was a simple stun or AoE fear (shadow) to give the tank 3-4 seconds time to pick all mobs up (no aoe tank mechanics) or patient DPS.

    Players who had issues with TBC dungeons, had issues with challenge modes and still have issues with a simple timed M+ key. If you did vanilla dungeons with propper (big) pulls, you had the same issues with bad players, like you have today in BfA.

    Whats next? Complaining about the 45 min stratholme baron run?
    Reality check: you could do the baron run without a priest-heal and with no tank while normaly geared. A non-tank baron run was just like doing a weekly 10+ with a R.IO 200 tank. Not faceroll easy but nothing special either.
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  5. #565
    The Lightbringer Heathy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    If all you do is baby-pulls in dungeon, every expansion might seem "easy" but its a colossal waste of time for everyone.

    Vanilla dungeons were not that easy
    they were when I started doing them in 2005, why? because you could take 15 ppl into strath and scholo. they were easy, was it harder when they were forced 5 mans, marginally so. the first stratholme run I did was with my 57 hunter and it was 15 man.
    I don't think anyone cared how big ppls dicks were back then, I know i still don't give a crap about any sort of eltistist stuff, clearing things in certain times, waste of times, my dick is bigger than your dick etc etc, i don't have time for that bullshit.

    what i do know is that in terms of raw difficulty, the dungeons in tbc were much harder than the dungeons in classic. the mobs hit harder and perhaps it was mostly down to being undergeared, but there hasn't been a time in the game since then where you were that undergeared after farming normals. challenge modes and m+ didn't exist in tbc, so i'm not sure what you mean by that. not that challenge modes were key to any sort of progression.

    I started doing end game dungeons in classic at 55 or 56, you don't really even need to be max level to start doing lbrs and dm east its doable without even being 60. at least it was in 1.12. you can start getting level 60 pieces without even being 60. I think when i started doing heroics they were harder than karazhan. kara was actually easier than 5 man heroics for a while. sure the bosses were more challenging, but the recovery was better. having 2 or 3 healers made it much easier than doing basically the same thing with 1 healer. if the healer died for some reason in heroic it was a wipe but in karazhan you had buffer so that made it somewhat easier. zul aman I enjoyed, that was tuned extremely well at the time I thought. even in t5 it was still kinda challenging if you wanted to do the timer it didn't really allow for slacking. but this difference is noticeable, anything in classic vs zul aman for example. comparing zul aman to ubrs for example, both 10 mans, leagues apart in difficulty. even comparing a fresh 60 ubrs run to a t4 zul aman run, you've got a much greater chance of breezing through ubrs than you do za.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2019-05-24 at 10:01 AM.

  6. #566

  7. #567
    They were always easy. It was harder to get a group of people with the right class and spec composition that have a clue of what's going on.

  8. #568
    Why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult?

    Furthermore, why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult for people who are already experienced with the game?

    I seriously don't understand people whining about vanilla being easy like this. It's a fucking 15 year old game, no shit it's going to be easy
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    LFR saved raiding
    Quote Originally Posted by Haekke View Post
    LFR is not really easy. I would say it's a lot harder thant Mythic Dungeons
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  9. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult?
    Because they bought into "levelling took several months and was an amazing journey" narrative - and if a large part of that time is actually easy, it might turn out they weren't such elite vanilla players after all. Defending their flawed memories about the difficulty is directly tied to defending their egos.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2019-05-25 at 02:05 AM.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Why are you expecting low level dungeons to be difficult?
    Because some people have this weird mindset that classic was the pinnacle of challenge and everything after that is just easy. Why do you think people always cite that 4HM was the most hardcore raidboss ever which took month to clear while today's Jaina dies within 1 ID and therefor has to be extremely easy. Expect more threads like this after MC is cleared (except Ragnaros) the day it's released and Raggi dies as soon as they can put out all the runes. And then when BWL is cleared within 1 day after release. And so on.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  11. #571
    It almost like. Players have 15 year of experinse.. And Retail is harder then classic ever was, so if you can do retail you sure can do classic. if you can dodge a wench you sure can dodge a Vanila dodgeball..
    Also, Only the fairly "advance" players are in the beta, so pretty far from the avage, and below avage players. so when the best of the best Doing the easyest content, with years of experinse. yea.. no big suprise

  12. #572
    Even I healed everything as shadow while leveling in vanilla and I was a total noob back then, so ofc they are easy now.

  13. #573
    Players were not as experienced back then.

    When dungeons first came out they were chaotic 'class raids' where you'd take one of each class along so they could each get their dungeon loot. But then they locked most of the down to just 5 players.

    I remember when I first saw a hunter use traps and pulling - it was a revelation.

    Towards the end of classic one of the quests to upgrade your dungeon tier was a Stratholme speed run, the forerunner to challenge mode and mythic+. All things that have basically trained us to be better in 5 mans.. I'd be shocked if dungeons didn't feel easier.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    And then when BWL is cleared within 1 day after release. And so on.
    On pservers, every single newly-released raid gets cleared within 5-6 hours. Yes, including Naxx.

    15 year old game, people. Everyone knows every raid inside and out, and the no-life-neet-hardcores will clear shit day 1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    LFR saved raiding
    Quote Originally Posted by Haekke View Post
    LFR is not really easy. I would say it's a lot harder thant Mythic Dungeons
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  15. #575
    Bloodsail Admiral rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    In other news classic WoW was actually easy and it was just the players that where bad at the time.

    Friendly reminder that when WoW originally launched it was actually the most casual and easy MMO on the market and that's how it gained mass appeal and separated itself from the pack in the first place.

    It's almost like people have been telling you for years there was nothing hard about it, it just lacked QoL features that would be added later. Classic was easier then retail currently is(and probably every xpac for that matter), it just didn't respect your time at all.
    preach it brother, this can't be stated enough, it boggles my mind that people are still so deluded that they think stuff was hard due to the 'rose tinted goggles' effect.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  16. #576
    I dont get the "We're just better now" bit.

    Vanillas skill ceiling is so low that what are you getting better at?
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  17. #577
    People are so used to M+ now that Classic dungeons seem way easier than they were.
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  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Carnedge View Post
    People are so used to M+ now that Classic dungeons seem way easier than they were.
    They were always easy. Even my dumb 13 year old self blasted through the dungeons easily. There were like, half a a dozen level cap or near level cap dungeons that could be called hard, and even then it was more a case of poor balance or just plain length than actual difficulty.

    Classic was never hard. Even back then they commented on how the only difficult part of raids was getting people to raid. What it was, was longer. Full stop.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  19. #579
    Lol people actually think difficulty is just about scripted boss mechanics. Retailers think if there are more mechanics listed in the Adventure Guide it must be harder.

    In Classic the world is actually dangerous, you aren't invincible, that's the big difference. Just getting to a dungeon can be a challenge.

    And so far all we've seen is lower level dungeons, which although not difficult are still more of a challenge than retail (there is a risk of wiping at least).

    Why on earth are you comparing level 20 dungeons to Mythic+, that's straight up retarded.

    I think I trust Venruki, one of the greatest Mages in the game of all time, when he says that the difficulty feels much more rewarding in Classic, over a bunch of retail babbies who have thousands of posts and think that the garbage of BfA is good game design.
    Last edited by WowClassic; 2019-05-25 at 01:05 PM.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    They were always easy. Even my dumb 13 year old self blasted through the dungeons easily. There were like, half a a dozen level cap or near level cap dungeons that could be called hard, and even then it was more a case of poor balance or just plain length than actual difficulty.

    Classic was never hard. Even back then they commented on how the only difficult part of raids was getting people to raid. What it was, was longer. Full stop.
    Never said they weren't easy. Said they seem even easier.

    Not to mention the leveling has been capped at 30 so people are having an even easierier time with them as they get decked out in BiS.

    If you play golf enough, it's going to get easier as you get better. People playing harder dungeons since TBC came out are going to be even better at dungeons than they were in vanilla, really fogging up the nostalgia.
    Last edited by Carnedge; 2019-05-25 at 01:06 PM.
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