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  1. #721
    I'll agree with what a couple have said that early cata heroics and raids were quite difficult as well. Blizzard trying to make up for the faceroll that were wotlk heroics really put a hurt on subs. They should've stuck with what made it popular in the first place: the lure of difficulty feeling rewarding.

  2. #722
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    Though... Back in Cata, Blizzard did say they "deleted everything from prior to Cata" so unless they want to go back on that statement and then never be trusted again...

    I don't believe it for one minute, but they really wanted to look forward and I get that, but what a foolish statement it was, to say we could never go back. rofl
    I have not actually seen anyone but me discuss the swing timer question in the elite damage context but it seems like a central (if overlooked) part of the question.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  3. #723
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    I have not actually seen anyone but me discuss the swing timer question in the elite damage context but it seems like a central (if overlooked) part of the question.
    What does this have to do with your quote of my post? o.o
    Stay healthy and safe, my friends. <3

  4. #724
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    What does this have to do with your quote of my post? o.o
    I am just digressing. No one else replies to me there is a dilbert cartoon explaining your current predicament

    though people with experience in computer tech/programming always said the dog ate my server code excuse was a questionable statement at best....but folks here quoted it verse and chapter, because they said it. I think that illustrates the average critical thinking skills of folks interested and informed enough about the game to make it here (say nothing of society at large).
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2019-05-28 at 02:01 AM.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  5. #725
    I am really curious how this is gonna turn out. People having these expectations of dungeons being a lot harder might get bored a lot faster in the end-game of Classic? This may not acount for AQ/NAX but hey those are not going to be released for a long time..

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Vanilla is really easy dungeon wise. It just seemed harder because everyone sucked and the classes sucked.
    People say same about leveling, yet we have one of the best players in the world wiping during leveling and dungeons. I think people are not that good how they thought they are or WoW was actually quite challenging.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    People say same about leveling, yet we have one of the best players in the world wiping during leveling and dungeons. I think people are not that good how they thought they are or WoW was actually quite challenging.
    If a person walks into a raid by themselves and pulls a boss and dies, it doesn't mean the raid is hard. Likewise, in vanilla, the majority of the world was built around group play mechanics. Don't get me wrong, I like that but it doesn't make it difficult.

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    If a person walks into a raid by themselves and pulls a boss and dies, it doesn't mean the raid is hard. Likewise, in vanilla, the majority of the world was built around group play mechanics. Don't get me wrong, I like that but it doesn't make it difficult.
    You are comparing apples and oranges but I am not sure if I really want argue about that. Majority of the world was not designed around "group" play.. There are zones and quest designed for group play and these zones/quest are "hard/tedious" for groups.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    You are comparing apples and oranges but I am not sure if I really want argue about that. Majority of the world was not designed around "group" play.. There are zones and quest designed for group play and these zones/quest are "hard/tedious" for groups.
    No, you can't mix hard and tedious together. Those are two very different things. The mage tower challenges were hard. Getting killed because your class is broken and the content you're engaging with is tuned for group content is tedious.

  10. #730
    Dungeons were really easy, players were just really misinformed. Like I was tanking those as an enhance shaman because at the character creation screen it said Shamans could tank. So we were gimped from the start and still completed the dungeons.

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    Dungeons were really easy, players were just really misinformed. Like I was tanking those as an enhance shaman because at the character creation screen it said Shamans could tank. So we were gimped from the start and still completed the dungeons.
    We cleared sunken temple during leveling with a Shaman "tank" who was also healing the group. Basically Shaman + 4 DDs. So Shaman could tank! :P
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    No, you can't mix hard and tedious together. Those are two very different things. The mage tower challenges were hard. Getting killed because your class is broken and the content you're engaging with is tuned for group content is tedious.
    Alright, I am giving up. You people will never get it. Classic is tedious, current wow is hard. It's hard to say it without laughing, but if this makes you feel better, have it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    We cleared sunken temple during leveling with a Shaman "tank" who was also healing the group. Basically Shaman + 4 DDs. So Shaman could tank! :P
    I did that too as Shaman with couple bosses. For some time, I dreamed Shamans would become viable tanks..well, I dreamed.

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Alright, I am giving up. You people will never get it. Classic is tedious, current wow is hard. It's hard to say it without laughing, but if this makes you feel better, have it.
    I'm curious who you think "you people" might be. People with relatively accurate memories of vanilla?

    You do understand that that I said I liked how Classic works right? I like how its setup, it's why I fell in love with the game so many years ago. The tedious work isn't an inherently bad thing. We just need to be accurate in how we talk about the game. Blizzard is watching and is likely going to apply lessons from Classic going forward. So lets hold ourselves to higher standard and make sure we are clear in our wording.

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    I'm curious who you think "you people" might be. People with relatively accurate memories of vanilla?

    You do understand that that I said I liked how Classic works right? I like how its setup, it's why I fell in love with the game so many years ago. The tedious work isn't an inherently bad thing. We just need to be accurate in how we talk about the game. Blizzard is watching and is likely going to apply lessons from Classic going forward. So lets hold ourselves to higher standard and make sure we are clear in our wording.
    His wording is pretty spot on
    1.xx is designed around macroeconomics, gear, consumables
    I wanna say from 4.xx (ulduar really, 3.1~) the game was designed around individual player performance

    Farming mats for flasks and crafted resistance gear is tedium; large amounts of easy tasks.
    Outside of very few fights, vanilla difficulty was about consumables and resistances. Not running out of mana in 300+ resistance gear.

    Fights like cho'gall, sinestra, etc, were about individual player performance. Same with hardmodes past ulduar.

  15. #735
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    Most people I knew didn't really do jack shit to get consumables until late into AQ40 and Naxxaramas.

    This is pretty funny because Vanilla (and early TBC before batttle/defensive elixir change) was fucking chalk full of ways to augment your character, ranging from enchants on all of your gear, to a fucking metric shitload of elixirs and potions. Those that went out of their way to actually have every available consumable on (lets ignore flasks, even though they are really strong) would absolutely curb stomp everybody else on the damage meters. The difference in damage taken between those that used potions (health and resistance) and farmed tubers/NDB was absolutely immense as well, and this isn't taking into account if your healers decided to use these items in addition to farming demonic runes.

    Vanilla raids were designed differently. Very few encounters would cause full group wipes until late in AQ40 or Naxxaramas if an individual played poorly, but they did exist. Most of the earlier content could be powered through, even in 'awful' gear if you had a dedicated group of people who were actually willing to farm the consumables required. It wasn't that common back in 2004-2006 to have people actually bother to get every consumables their class could use. It also wasn't necessary until Naxxaramas, but boy did it make things a lot easier if you did.

    Encounters in modern WoW don't have nearly the amount of preparation needed from a consumable standpoint, and instead have rigid enrage timers (something that didn't exist until later in Vanilla) with various amounts of pass/fail checks strung throughout the encounter. Your wiggle room is generally the enrage timer and only affording you 1-3 mistakes throughout the encounter. Of course if a tank dies at a bad time in Vanilla this is usually going to cause a wipe, but that's "generally' true of any iteration of the game. It's more akin to if Vanilla had mechanic checks like Thaddius, except different ones happening frequently on every single boss. That's sort of like what modern WoW is like. Or having a boss like Heigan (which punishes individuals), but you can limp through the finish as long as people can continue to dance properly (our first kill of Heigan in Vanilla was absurdly long).

    This isn't me saying that I think a more consumable approach is a bad thing, it honestly isn't. But it's not 'hard'. A consumable approach and amounts of tedium are inherently RPG in nature, and that's honestly what's missing from WoW.

    Our first kill of Thaddius back in Vanilla was 37 manned as soon as we hit phase two (three people literally couldn't make the jump). We lost a couple more people pretty shortly into P2 simply because connections were dick sauce and/or they just didn't move in time. We weren't abusing world buffs but we were using full consumables, and we were still ahead of the enrage. For better or worse, modern WoW punishes you for mistakes like that, and it would be tuned in such a way that starting a phase down nearly 10% of your raid group would result in a wipe based on enrage (even if the other 35+ people did the mechanics properly forever, and healer mana was sustained).

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Most people I knew didn't really do jack shit to get consumables until late into AQ40 and Naxxaramas.

    This is pretty funny because Vanilla (and early TBC before batttle/defensive elixir change) was fucking chalk full of ways to augment your character, ranging from enchants on all of your gear, to a fucking metric shitload of elixirs and potions. Those that went out of their way to actually have every available consumable on (lets ignore flasks, even though they are really strong) would absolutely curb stomp everybody else on the damage meters. The difference in damage taken between those that used potions (health and resistance) and farmed tubers/NDB was absolutely immense as well, and this isn't taking into account if your healers decided to use these items in addition to farming demonic runes.

    Vanilla raids were designed differently. Very few encounters would cause full group wipes until late in AQ40 or Naxxaramas if an individual played poorly, but they did exist. Most of the earlier content could be powered through, even in 'awful' gear if you had a dedicated group of people who were actually willing to farm the consumables required. It wasn't that common back in 2004-2006 to have people actually bother to get every consumables their class could use. It also wasn't necessary until Naxxaramas, but boy did it make things a lot easier if you did.

    Encounters in modern WoW don't have nearly the amount of preparation needed from a consumable standpoint, and instead have rigid enrage timers (something that didn't exist until later in Vanilla) with various amounts of pass/fail checks strung throughout the encounter. Your wiggle room is generally the enrage timer and only affording you 1-3 mistakes throughout the encounter. Of course if a tank dies at a bad time in Vanilla this is usually going to cause a wipe, but that's "generally' true of any iteration of the game. It's more akin to if Vanilla had mechanic checks like Thaddius, except different ones happening frequently on every single boss. That's sort of like what modern WoW is like. Or having a boss like Heigan (which punishes individuals), but you can limp through the finish as long as people can continue to dance properly (our first kill of Heigan in Vanilla was absurdly long).

    This isn't me saying that I think a more consumable approach is a bad thing, it honestly isn't. But it's not 'hard'. A consumable approach and amounts of tedium are inherently RPG in nature, and that's honestly what's missing from WoW.

    Our first kill of Thaddius back in Vanilla was 37 manned as soon as we hit phase two (three people literally couldn't make the jump). We lost a couple more people pretty shortly into P2 simply because connections were dick sauce and/or they just didn't move in time. We weren't abusing world buffs but we were using full consumables, and we were still ahead of the enrage. For better or worse, modern WoW punishes you for mistakes like that, and it would be tuned in such a way that starting a phase down nearly 10% of your raid group would result in a wipe based on enrage (even if the other 35+ people did the mechanics properly forever, and healer mana was sustained).
    They nerfed consumables in/around TK because having to farm thousands of pots on top of actually doing the mechanics was proving to be way too much. If you look at WF solarian, you can see that was done before the consumables change.

    A consumable approach and amounts of tedium are inherently RPG in nature, and that's honestly what's missing from WoW.
    That's what artifact power is. People hate it just like people hated farming stupid amounts of consumables back then. People only like tedium through rose tinted goggles

  17. #737
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    I know what artifact power is, it doesn't make it 'good' though.

    It really depends on what you like. There's still an inherent difference in AP compared to consumables though. AP feels necessary during progression, but it's pretty inefficient until the artificial multiplier finishes weeks down the line. Getting AP when AK is done feels pretty good, but it also makes the work you did during that time feel largely inefficient. AP is also finite and if you want to maximize it during times of progression, you need to check in everyday (generally) and do AP quests. AP is also capped based on patch cycle to prevent people from getting too far ahead, whereas consumables are largely static, you can farm them when you want (or buy them on the AH), and yo ucan also stockpile them for future content.

    I don't like AP, I don't like daily quests, and I don't like farming consumables either. Consumable farm on my rogue at the start of TBC was probably the worst thing I've ever experienced (think farming current expansions consumable requirements, in addition to a few of the previous expansions consumables, simply because the content was bugged/overtuned and there was nothing stopping you from doubling up on vanilla/TBC consumables). I'd still prefer consumables for 'progression' from a raiding standpoint though, because I can do it when I like and stockpile for the future. I'm mixed on how they are approaching consumables in 8.2 because they are for the most part obsoleting consumables from launch, in favor of more powerful ones (generally, you only see gems get stronger as an expansion goes on).

    Besides epic gems in TBC, everything you got at the start of the expansion was useful through the entire expansion. Vanilla was like this too. You could make an educated guess that fire resistance potions were going to be needed upon launch, and you might not think to save nature/frost resistance potions for future raids, but now we have that knowledge and you can prepare accordingly well over a year in advance.

    I'm with you that it's all largely the same (tedious tasks, meant to keep you engaged in the game), but not all tedium is the same.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Erous View Post
    I'll add that TBC per-nerf heroic dungeons were, imo, the hardest dungeons ever. Nothing like having all melee mobs 360 cleave.
    I still have Shattered Halls heroic PTSD.

  19. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by crono14 View Post
    I still have Shattered Halls heroic PTSD.
    I never really found them difficult TBH. They were Vanilla inspired dungeons with the occasional boss that had mechanics. But Vanilla inspired, I mean mobs had random cleaves, CC, stuns and etc. The only difference between the two is mobs actually hit incredibly hard in TBC dungeons, but they was literally the only mechanic they had. I vividly remember the hound master packs in Shattered Halls yelling "We cannot be stopped" removing and enraging both of his dogs, and the dog proceeding to run over and nearly one shot the shaman in our group.

    Difficulty? Naw. When you realize mobs just do stupid amounts of damage your approach to them changes. You CC mobs and you group kite. All I remember doing in the majority of dungeons (especially Shattered Halls) was our warrior getting an baseline amount of threat, and the running away. It was popular to bring multiple mages to groups to deal with dungeons like this, but you could just kite things like we did. Our entire approach was tab targeting shiv/crippling onto everything and having the two range kite things lol.

    Before M+, I think Cataclysm dungeons prior to the changes encompassed the ideal difficulty for dungeon content. Trash didn't hit stupid hard, but if you over pulled and didn't interrupt, you would die. Bosses also had mechanics that you largely couldn't ignore, and individual responsibility became pretty important. Five man content in Cataclysm literally felt like a small raid. It was literally like Vanilla/TBC with trash design, but with layers of difficulty on the bosses that you would except from raid. By comparison, normal/heroic/mythic dungeon content in Legion/BFA is fairly trivial by comparison simply because M+ can potentially drive the dungeons to that point that you can't actually beat them if you climb high enough.

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    His wording is pretty spot on
    1.xx is designed around macroeconomics, gear, consumables
    I wanna say from 4.xx (ulduar really, 3.1~) the game was designed around individual player performance

    Farming mats for flasks and crafted resistance gear is tedium; large amounts of easy tasks.
    Outside of very few fights, vanilla difficulty was about consumables and resistances. Not running out of mana in 300+ resistance gear.

    Fights like cho'gall, sinestra, etc, were about individual player performance. Same with hardmodes past ulduar.
    No where in his post did he say anything to this effect. The best argument he put forth was "one of the best players in the world" was getting killed in the open world and that "you people don't get it." None of which echos what you just put forward here.

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