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  1. #741
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    I posted a thread about this. apparently some mob damage matches vintage videos, backing out probable armor etc in the videos, yet there just isn't enough damage being done to parties to justify anything people remember pre-2.3.

    I speculated mob swing timers have been lengthened. it would not show up combat logs in a way that would lend itself to detection.

    - - - Updated - - -



    the most interesting part is people report weak instance mobs, but correct outdoor questing tuning. it is an improbable 'false memory' construction to see so commonly. I know there are people on standby to explain this with the 4 reasons (blizz has an alleged 1.12 test server which helped the demo be 100% right, false memories/12 years, and private server contamination, either by direct experience or osmosis, or better players)
    Swing timers being off I could actually see. That seems like a Blizzard thing to miss in their quest for accurate numbers on hit.

    I also just realized the reason we've heard tumbleweeds about this may be because it's 10 levels over the cap. Players who did exploration said high level mobs looked broken animation wise. May be past 30 is an unfinished no man's land.

    Blizz's post on damage being right compared VC runs, right? Not SM.
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  2. #742
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Swing timers being off I could actually see. That seems like a Blizzard thing to miss in their quest for accurate numbers on hit.

    I also just realized the reason we've heard tumbleweeds about this may be because it's 10 levels over the cap. Players who did exploration said high level mobs looked broken animation wise. May be past 30 is an unfinished no man's land.

    Blizz's post on damage being right compared VC runs, right? Not SM.
    I believe blizzard only address a couple of mobs in DM, and did not address dps, just damage per hit (meaning swing timers ignored).

    At this point the best thing I can see to do is make folks interested in this topic from an accuracy viewpoint make note that the there is more than one way to numerically explain lower net mob dps vs party. a matching damage number means the frequency could be the problem.
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  3. #743
    Having levelled several characters in vanilla - one of which very heavily through dungeons, and also a Classic beta player, I can't say I really agree with this post's premise. For starters, we're only L30 in the beta - you can't make a meaningful comparison because most people will remember max level dungeons.

    Comparison to max level dungeons will also be dicey (not that we even can compare yet) as we all know Strath, Scholo and UBRS had their group size changed - I have a few memories of these places, but I couldn't tell you in which version most of them were from.

    I know it's been said before, but it is worth repeating here - these low level dungeons, most people will have done them either when they were very very new to the game or someone else in the group was. When all of you have some semblance of what to do and how not to accidentally pull 4 extra packs etc. they aren't really challenging - they never were. I do really think that the average player - at least in the beta, being fairly decent does also help in this regard. I haven't really played with anyone yet that seemed to have no idea what they were doing.

  4. #744
    Anyone who started leveling an alt in vanilla after they played the end-game realises this though right? I first rolled a priest back in vanilla and I was completely clueless. By the time we where doing BWL I rolled a warrior alt and leveled it with some friends.

    I ran wailing caverns on my warrior alt we cleared it in 30 minutes. I had difficultly understanding how we had managed to spend 3 hours in there the first time around on my priest. It was the same through out the levelling process.

    That said, next to the fact that we knew what we where doing we also had a stockpile of rare BOE's and plenty of funds to fill in any gaps in our gear.
    Last edited by insert random number; 2019-05-29 at 08:50 AM.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I never really found them difficult TBH. They were Vanilla inspired dungeons with the occasional boss that had mechanics. But Vanilla inspired, I mean mobs had random cleaves, CC, stuns and etc. The only difference between the two is mobs actually hit incredibly hard in TBC dungeons, but they was literally the only mechanic they had. I vividly remember the hound master packs in Shattered Halls yelling "We cannot be stopped" removing and enraging both of his dogs, and the dog proceeding to run over and nearly one shot the shaman in our group.

    Difficulty? Naw. When you realize mobs just do stupid amounts of damage your approach to them changes. You CC mobs and you group kite. All I remember doing in the majority of dungeons (especially Shattered Halls) was our warrior getting an baseline amount of threat, and the running away. It was popular to bring multiple mages to groups to deal with dungeons like this, but you could just kite things like we did. Our entire approach was tab targeting shiv/crippling onto everything and having the two range kite things lol.

    Before M+, I think Cataclysm dungeons prior to the changes encompassed the ideal difficulty for dungeon content. Trash didn't hit stupid hard, but if you over pulled and didn't interrupt, you would die. Bosses also had mechanics that you largely couldn't ignore, and individual responsibility became pretty important. Five man content in Cataclysm literally felt like a small raid. It was literally like Vanilla/TBC with trash design, but with layers of difficulty on the bosses that you would except from raid. By comparison, normal/heroic/mythic dungeon content in Legion/BFA is fairly trivial by comparison simply because M+ can potentially drive the dungeons to that point that you can't actually beat them if you climb high enough.
    What people makes think that amounth of mechanics is what determinates difficulty of boss. Thats absolute nonsense. Mechanics ate just 1 part what can make enncounters hard it is not THE main thing. Yes dmg, hp, mana managment, threat managment, cc, etc makes boss hard just like any type of mechanic.

  6. #746
    Dreadlord Xzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    What do you guys think about this?

    I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

    I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?
    Well the beta is up to level 30. There was nothing really difficult about these low level dungeons. Just about enough to have fun and not need the tank and healer go re-spec for it.
    Just wait for Scholo, Strat and the like.

  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    What do you guys think about this?

    I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

    I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?
    When I played Vanilla, I was a keyboard turning, backpedaling, ability clicker. I've done those dungeons to death in various stages of the game. I remember them being challenging in certain aspects, but never 'hard'.

    I've done a few low level dungeons on beta, and sure - they were pretty easy with the groups I had. That's to be expected now. People always said Vanilla dungeons and raiding was hard. It was only hard due to being complete noobs at the genre. Anyone who has raided more recently will find classic raiding a snorefest.
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  8. #748
    classic is on patch 1.12, everything was easy as shit in that patch, not that it was particularily harder before.

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by precious View Post
    No its about dungeons and according to u ppl it took u thousands of hours to preper for raids, and since dungeons was a big part of gearing for raids i have ppl telling me of how they spended 3-5 hours inside dungeons to clear them cause of high difficulty. It wasnt the shit class balance or no toolkit or the shitty internet or the clueless ppl. It was pure high difficulty of dungeons.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So all those 3.7 mil players that did that slider difficulty in m+ and the 500k plus that did hc and mythic BOD last week according to raider io and warcrtaft logs, did not enjoy the multiple difficulties but went and do it cause they had a gun pointed to their head. And since classic raiding is more fun for ppl and the only source of that is PS servers since classic isnt out yet, we come to the conclusion that over 500k ppl do classic raiding on PS since its more popular than retail. Lets add another 3-4 million that dont raid and we have aproxx 4 million ppl playing classic worldwide on PS servers.

    And before u say anything about the above numbers all the entries are for unique players.
    To be fair, those numbers count alts separate so it isn’t all that impressive tbh. That should read something like 20 mill m+ done and 4 million who did the raid.

    Could just be one million players and their Alts. It doesn’t mean it had 3.7 accounts in mythic

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    To be fair, those numbers count alts separate so it isn’t all that impressive tbh. That should read something like 20 mill m+ done and 4 million who did the raid.

    Could just be one million players and their Alts. It doesn’t mean it had 3.7 accounts in mythic
    And before u say anything about the above numbers all the entries are for unique players.

    If i have 10 alts all 10 have diff id.
    Last edited by precious; 2019-05-29 at 11:22 AM.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by precious View Post
    And before u say anything about the above numbers all the entries are for unique players.

    If i have 10 alts all 10 have diff id.
    You just contradicted yourself. Is it unique ACCOUNTS, or unique characters? Because 3.7 million unique ACCOUNTS is much more impressive than characters.

    The people still playing live wow tend to be alt type players and a lot of that is probably just alt #6 running it again for gear.

    10 alts all with 10 ids. So 10 characters count 10 times instead of 1. See what i mean? Not that impressive

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Xzan View Post
    Well the beta is up to level 30. There was nothing really difficult about these low level dungeons. Just about enough to have fun and not need the tank and healer go re-spec for it.
    Just wait for Scholo, Strat and the like.
    Prior to serious raid content no tank had to spec prot. Especially with low level gear it was favorable to be fury or arms to generate more threat. Tanks in Classic and TBC scaled particularily bad with gear, e.g. rage generation was still mostly linked to damage taken...

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Even with limited tool kits, a lot of people understand core concepts better now than they did then.

    LoS 15 years ago? Forget about it.
    Kiting 15 years ago? Forget about it.
    Interrupts and stuns? Well, that's still kinda mixed even after 15 years, lol.

    All of the Vanilla dungeons are pretty easy if you don't over pull and either kite or use LoS to your advantage if you find yourself in a terrible spot. When these things happened when I played, people just fell over like flies and panic ensued.
    I do not understand why most people think that people played Vanilla were basically drooling on themselves on the other side of the screen.

  14. #754
    Legendary! Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funnyqt View Post
    I do not understand why most people think that people played Vanilla were basically drooling on themselves on the other side of the screen.
    Eh. To be honest, most of those "techniques" WERE quite foreign back then. Sure, LoS was a thing against any ranged group, but it took a while for it to be a more "widespread" practice amongst the average gaming population - Not that it's practiced by the general public now. But I only did LoS pulls on pulls that "needed" it otherwise wipe, and I never, EVER kited, primarily because there weren't many mechanics, if any at all, that required kiting (I feel like I remember that elites moved faster then players, and a large number were immune to slows. But it's been a long time for me).

    Interupts were sparse in Vanilla - Paladins, Priests, Druids, and Hunters didn't have interupts, and that's nearly half the classes! Warriors, Mages, Warlocks, Rogues, and Shamans did, but all of them were on the GCD back then - And most casts you had to interupt were fast, <1.5 second casts, so if your GCD was up, forget about interupting. Also, Rogues/Warriors interupts costed energy/rage, Mage/Warlock interupts were on an even longer CD then current, and alliance didn't even have shamans! Plus they generated additional threat! The good news was interupts (Except Shaman's Earth Shock) lasted much longer - 2 rogues or 2 warriors were generally enough to keep a mob spell-locked forever. (Or 3 mages. You didn't want Shaman's on an interupt rotation, because they WOULD eventually overtake the tank in threat due to the high threat generation of Earth Shock). Stuns were slightly more common, but not by much.
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  15. #755
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    WOW was most peoples first MMO. It was new and they didn’t understand the mechanics. Since then, we have had so many mmos and rpgs that have similar mechanics that going back to vanilla is going back to the basics. Its like graduating college, then going back to first grade. First grade was difficult when you experienced it for the first time, but now it is childs play.
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  16. #756
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Eh. To be honest, most of those "techniques" WERE quite foreign back then.
    Come on - 'line of sight' isn't a super advanced idea that takes genius level brains or years to comprehend. The idea that somehow people back then were idiots and we're all ultra-advanced now is just silly.

  17. #757
    "Everyone"

    It's just private server players who have no idea what they're talking about that are creating false reports like this. Most of them didn't even play vanilla. Leave this to the professionals kids.

  18. #758
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funnyqt View Post
    I do not understand why most people think that people played Vanilla were basically drooling on themselves on the other side of the screen.
    I do not understand it either. Probably projection of own incompetence on others, as in "i was bad back in vanilla because i knew nothing, it means that everyone else was bad"
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  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I do not understand it either. Probably projection of own incompetence on others, as in "i was bad back in vanilla because i knew nothing, it means that everyone else was bad"
    It's more so majority of people I talk to about classic, including myself, were 12-13 when we played vanilla. Also general gaming culture and mindset was a bit different back then in mmos.

    People weren't drooling but level of play at top end and has gone up a lot since Vanilla. General level of play probably has gone up a bit too. This is not unique to WoW either, League of Legends is same, and not only at professional level. If you watch old video from Season 2 play at like Gold mmr level and at same mmr right now, you'll see a huge difference in game knowledge and mechanical skill.

    People in general improve as things get harder, they rise to the challenge. This happens in any pvp game because you are trying to be better than others and other people are trying to be better than you so you both improve. Same thing happened in pve though, as raids got more mechanics and rotations for a lot of classes got more complex than 1 button and people just played more, they improved their general level of play.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by Funnyqt View Post
    I do not understand why most people think that people played Vanilla were basically drooling on themselves on the other side of the screen.
    It's hyperbole of course, but it's not without a grain of truth. You have to understand that no one really knew anything - the developers included. They designed with a lot of heart and not a maximum of forethought, which is fine - after all it's been over a decade of refinement now and there's still some issues left.

    Today's WoW is mathed out, inundated with guides, and played by people who've already been at it for a few years - or who, at the very least, have some experience with games or even MMORPGs. That wasn't the audience back then. People hadn't grown up playing games online. There weren't 20,000 titles on Steam to choose from at the flick of a finger, and people hadn't played 100 games before that taught them all sorts of industry-standard expectations.

    You could go into WoW wide-eyed and without any deeper knowledge of mechanics, and still have fun - because it was designed with those kinds of players in mind. If you put that in the hand of TODAY'S players, it's no surprise everything looks simple and plain. We know better. We know more than a decade better. Not because we're more intelligent, but because we're more experienced - but as so often, a lack of experience is conflated with a lack of intelligence. Hence the whole drooling idiot meme.

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