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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Willias View Post
    What dungeons are we talking about? Most leveling dungeons you could just grab mobs and AoE them down. CC really wasn't really needed until close to level cap, and even then it wasn't always needed.
    Not exactly. The big roadblock to AoE pulling was tanks not being able to hold threat on everything at the time. You could potentially tank any elites in a pack while the none-elites were beating on your Mage, which was a common enough stratergy in lower level dungeons, but for the most part Tanks just didn't have the scaling nor the tools to really AoE tank mobs.

    Which is where CC came in. You'd usually CC mobs down to the number your Tank could reasonably hold threat on. It was usually in the 2-3 ballpark for most tanks, I expect that number has gone up simply because players have much more experience to draw on now - In 2004 we were just making things up as we went along.

    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    So we all agree. Dungeons are easier than people remember because players are better now. The only thing holding us back will be the gratify me now mentality.
    Not only are players better, we also have better tools now. Addons have come a long way since 2004 and there are tools, build optimisers and guides available. More experienced and better informed players are going to breeze through content that complete newbies struggled with.

  2. #42
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    Sure but at the same time you need to keep in mind every private server player has noted that leveling is slower on classic, the disconnect between the dungeons and leveling mobs is what is curious about this topic.

    I am sure blizz is looking into this and will keep us updated.
    That was exactly what i wanted to discuss, not the usual 'vanilla was easy hysteria'.

  3. #43
    Id like to also note, that while my mechanical skill has increased over the years due mostly to PC hardware, i didnt like quadruple my game knowledge or anything. I knew when to press buttons back then the same as i do now, so blaming this 100% on player skill im not convinced of.

  4. #44
    Bloodsail Admiral Evaddon's Avatar
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    Vanilla was never hard, this is a HUGE False narrative that people try to continuously push. It was tedious, it was a grind, it took time and patience and slight bit of preparation with potions and such. That is all, it was never hard, it was never difficult. You just couldn't rush and over pull.

  5. #45
    Stood in the Fire Hekazi's Avatar
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    fps issues and shit communication, THAT, is what made the game hard, now it's easy.
    They hate the grind, but they demand classic

  6. #46
    Scarab Lord Sting's Avatar
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    The early dungeons are all pretty simple. In addition, all the high end dungeons were nerfed after you couldn't bring 10 people to them anymore but I can't remember which patch that was.
    ( ° ͜ʖ͡°)╭∩╮

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The fun factor would go up 1000x if WQs existed in vanilla

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    One thing id like to note, staysafe has been playing private servers for many years and he is 100% sure that the leveling mobs are harder to kill on classic than PS'ers
    So private servers had it wrong. Not exactly a surprise.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by precious View Post
    It was hard cause u played with 500 ms since dial up connections or 1mbit at best
    It was hard cause back then the majority was like 8-10 years old
    It was hard cause the player base back then was terrible at video games
    It was hard cause the hours and days server were down cause of problems make u believe "this game is hard since it takes me 5 days to geta lvl" hence the fact servers were down for 4 days

    In other words game was not hard. Was braindead easy, and just time consuming. Tbc in other hand had some difficult dungeons.
    People forget this so much... it was the casual MMO. Straightforward. Just required time. And all the other factors you mentioned added to the illusion of Vanilla being hard.
    "There is no end to education. It is not that you read a book, pass an examination, and finish with education. The whole of life, from the moment you are born to the moment you die, is a process of learning." by Jiddu Krishnamurti, Philosopher and Educator

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    Sure but at the same time you need to keep in mind every private server player has noted that leveling is slower on classic, the disconnect between the dungeons and leveling mobs is what is curious about this topic.

    I am sure blizz is looking into this and will keep us updated.
    Let's be fair here, the fireball casting mages in Westfall did more damage than most stuff inside Deadmines.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Not exactly. The big roadblock to AoE pulling was tanks not being able to hold threat on everything at the time. You could potentially tank any elites in a pack while the none-elites were beating on your Mage, which was a common enough stratergy in lower level dungeons, but for the most part Tanks just didn't have the scaling nor the tools to really AoE tank mobs.

    Which is where CC came in. You'd usually CC mobs down to the number your Tank could reasonably hold threat on. It was usually in the 2-3 ballpark for most tanks, I expect that number has gone up simply because players have much more experience to draw on now - In 2004 we were just making things up as we went along.
    Running stuff with an offtank, or someone would could pick up monsters and reliably not die also wasn't uncommon. See: any dps warrior, most paladins, shamans with shields, hunter pets, and so on.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Willias View Post
    Let's be fair here, the fireball casting mages in Westfall did more damage than most stuff inside Deadmines.
    Those are an incredible outlier tho, im just saying there seems to be something amiss with dungeon difficulty on beta that isn't just down to "vanilla was easy" or "players simply got better over the years". Because if that was the case, 1.12 gear and itemization on classic would make the leveling easier than private servers as well, which isnt the case right now.

    Again, yall should wait for a blue post before reaching conclusions.

  11. #51
    I think part of where the confusion is coming from is based off of the patch that Classic is being built off of. Many of the classes were in much worse condition when WoW initially launched, but by the time of 1.12 every class had received some fixes that allowed them to function in their given roles. Doing instances while leveling wasn't particularly difficult by the end of the expansion, especially the earlier dungeons like RFC, Deadmines, and Stockades, and most of the struggles occurred because of adds/patrols and trying to keep multiple elites on a tank.

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer Xlightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armadildo View Post
    People try low level dungeons. OH MY GERD ITS EASY.
    Good luck in stratholme.
    Stratholme was also easy. Everything in Vanilla was easy. The 2004 average player was simply way worse than today's average player. This has been said millions of times because it is a fact. People still doubt it.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Vanilla was never hard, this is a HUGE False narrative that people try to continuously push. It was tedious, it was a grind, it took time and patience and slight bit of preparation with potions and such. That is all, it was never hard, it was never difficult. You just couldn't rush and over pull.
    And moder wow is hard? I dont know i can finish every single dungeon, raid, world boss by pressing 1 button and without saying single word.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by precious View Post
    It was hard cause u played with 500 ms since dial up connections or 1mbit at best
    It was hard cause back then the majority was like 8-10 years old
    It was hard cause the player base back then was terrible at video games
    It was hard cause the hours and days server were down cause of problems make u believe "this game is hard since it takes me 5 days to geta lvl" hence the fact servers were down for 4 days

    In other words game was not hard. Was braindead easy, and just time consuming. Tbc in other hand had some difficult dungeons.
    Funny that, it' s almost like people got better at this game they've spent 15 years playing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    And moder wow is hard? I dont know i can finish every single dungeon, raid, world boss by pressing 1 button and without saying single word.
    You can, but i'm sure the other players in the group don't appreciate having to carry you.

    LFR & the World Boss is a pass though, as that's actually more effort than most, proud of you

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Willias View Post
    Let's be fair here, the fireball casting mages in Westfall did more damage than most stuff inside Deadmines.
    I am in the beta and this is still true. Those lvl 14-15 mfers hit for 80.

    From what ive seen multiple times in the general chats, the vast majority are people who played in vanilla. So these are not only people who are familiar with the content, but they are people who are still around to this day, because they at least opted in for classic beta. The dungeons are harder than current WoW in only limited aspects, like use of CC and not bringing someone who is 5 levels lower than all the mobs. If you try to do deadmines with 5 lvl 16 players you are going to have a much different experience than 5 lvl 20 players.

  16. #56
    Next they are going to report them for being waaaaaay toooooo loooooong . . .

  17. #57
    If you originally attempted the dungeon while being 10 year old of course it was hard for you.

    Expecting streamers with years of experience to struggle in same places 10-year-old you struggled is laughable.

    However, average player is still a moron. People were crying over Cata heroics, and they were much easier than Blackrock Depths or Scholomance. You WILL get these morons in your group and thus you WILL struggle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    When an orc eats an orc, two orcs rip out of the orcs stomach, they eat each other and a brand new orc walks through the door, and then his chest explodes and 20 full grown orcs crawl out of his body. They then eat each other and the bodies until there are 3 orcs left. The mystery of the orc reproduction cycle.

  18. #58
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Been watching a lot of dungeons and they seem the same as I remember them.

    IDK where this myth that you'd take 4 hours on a Deadmines run came from. I leveled enough characters through the Old World to know the dungeons didn't become hard until you got to like... 40.

    Heck the game in general didn't really get hard until about then.
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  19. #59
    Oh, btw, what people fail to mention is that originally Vanilla dungeons baited people with low lvl to attempt them. Players would judge the difficutly of dungeon by mobs guarding the entrance, but the level of mobs increases as dungeon goes onward. In absurd case of Uldaman, the entrance mobs are level 36, but end-boss Archaedas is fricking level 47. Imagine a team of 35s (so entry mobs are yellow) entering Uldaman. They would get destroyed. I don't think its even mathematically possible to kill Archaedas with 5 level 35s. Now we know how it works, and people enter dungeons while being overleveled. If you are below level 42 you won't ever be invited for Uldaman, and people with level 45 or higher will be preferred. Some mobs could be GRAY for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    When an orc eats an orc, two orcs rip out of the orcs stomach, they eat each other and a brand new orc walks through the door, and then his chest explodes and 20 full grown orcs crawl out of his body. They then eat each other and the bodies until there are 3 orcs left. The mystery of the orc reproduction cycle.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafoel View Post
    However, average player is still a moron. People were crying over Cata heroics, and they were much easier than Blackrock Depths or Scholomance. You WILL get these morons in your group and thus you WILL struggle.
    I would argue that it primarily depends on your tank.

    Is your Tank competent enough to tank more than a single mob? If not, have fun.
    Is your Tank competent enough to use LoS to get caster mobs close? If not, have fun.

    Tanks are basically the only one who need to have some basic understanding of their class / general Npc mechanics.

    Like really, all dps have to do is follow the tank and beat the stuff the tank beats, Healer doesn't take any skill in lowlevel because you have no Mana reg anyway and only like 1-2 healing spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafoel View Post
    Oh, btw, what people fail to mention is that originally Vanilla dungeons baited people with low lvl to attempt them.
    I think most people just went into a dungeon once they had a handful of quests that led them there, i didn't go to BFD to check what kind of mobs are in front of there to find out whether i'm suited for this dungeon.
    I went more like "hey i have quests for that dungeons that are orange / yellow, better find a group before they turn green!".
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-19 at 08:31 PM.

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