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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    People were monkeys.

    People are just slightly less monkey like now than they were. Can they still be impatient though? Absolutely.

    The odd person knowing how to kite and LoS, doesn't equate to an entire population. Why you quoted me and made a large point about stuns/interrupts, when I literally said people being bad about that mostly hasn't changed, is beyond me. Those who PvP regularly and a portion of the PvE community knows how to use kicks and stuns when appropriate, what a shocker.

    I actually like Vanilla/Classic for what it is, and what it was. It's still fun and it's still good, but the delusions that it is still incredibly difficult, or was ever truly difficult just don't ring true at all. You know why? Primarily because people have done it before and the information is already out there. I don't know about you, but my first play through of a game is more challenging than when I decide to pick it up again years later. And you know what? That's okay.

    People can say the game is fucking easy and still enjoy it, holy shit lol. Something being easy and relatively straight forward isn't always a bad thing.
    Well if you read my post, i never argued about it being difficult. But saying that noone could kite, stun/interrumpt, or LoS, is what's beyond me. There were monkeys, just as there are now. But my point is still there. It wasn't THAT bad.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    And that has nothing to do with skill in classic, because it's above the skill cap of the game. Theres barely any point in keybinding more than 3-5 abilities per class. You can play any class to 99% efficiency in classis with zero keybinds. I know that because i've done that.
    Haha, what? You obviously never played classic. Lets see you keyboard turn in fights like C'thun or anything in Naxx. Also, try keyboard turning in PvP.

    Also, 3-5 key binds? What? Try play something that's not mage... Everyone had more than that in PvP. Only the DPS had that many in raids. Everyone else had many different skills and of those skills they had many different levels. Like "heal 1" and "heal 4" for example.
    Last edited by urasim; 2019-05-19 at 10:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    liberalism is a right wing idealogy.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    Haha, what? You obviously never played classic. Lets see you keyboard turn in fights like C'thun or anything in Naxx. Also, try keyboard turning in PvP.
    Oh but i did. Didnt kill C'thun though, and just got 5 bosses down in Naxx. Quite a bit of high-end (if you can call duelling all the highwarlords/grand marshalls high-end) pvp however, as warrior and rogue.

    Also, 3-5 key binds? What? Try play something that's not mage... Everyone had more than that in PvP. Only the DPS had that many in raids. Everyone else had many different skills and of those skills they had many different levels. Like "heal 1" and "heal 4" for example.
    No need when nearly every single ability shared a GCD. Like i said, it's way above the skill cap of classic. Not much point in keybinding when you still have to wait for ages between each action.

    It's just interrupts off the GCD that had a point in being keybound.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    To be honest here, watching some streams, 90% of all players currently in beta are absolutely frikkin terrible. And these are highly experienced players.

    You cannot simply compare Classic to BFA, they are different games. BFA is just way more accessible for bad players.
    To be honest it's the opposite. Classic doesn't respect your time, that is literally all the "difficulty" of it. If you take your time and play at the pace Classic wants you to play it at it's literally impossible to fail.

    If you time traveled the average 40 man raid from vanilla to BFA they wouldn't even be able to kill mythic champions, that's literally a loot pinata that has more mechanics then any fight in vanilla. Mechanics that if you mess up are either death are a wipe. Loot pinata in BFA, would of been hardest boss in classic.

    The average BFA players going into classic is going to perform at a MUCH higher level then "noobs" did in vanilla. Especially the majority which didn't have experience from EQ or other MMOs.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    Haha, what? You obviously never played classic. Lets see you keyboard turn in fights like C'thun or anything in Naxx. Also, try keyboard turning in PvP.

    Also, 3-5 key binds? What? Try play something that's not mage... Everyone had more than that in PvP. Only the DPS had that many in raids. Everyone else had many different skills and of those skills they had many different levels. Like "heal 1" and "heal 4" for example.
    There are bosses in Naxxaramas where your entire raid, or the majority of your raid could literally stand still for the entire encounter. Keyboard turning is bad, but you absolutely could get through everything by keyboard turning, I watched people do it 15 years ago in Naxxaramas, and my guild killed everything sans 4HM and above.

    The PvP bit is an exaggeration. Vanilla PvE really doesn't require many binds, and for some classes, the rotations were at their simplest in Vanilla/TBC. However PvP is a different story, and there was still a pretty large skill gap between the good and bad players in PvP, and those people weren't using 3-5 key binds.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    To be honest it's the opposite. Classic doesn't respect your time, that is literally all the "difficulty" of it. If you take your time and play at the pace Classic wants you to play it at it's literally impossible to fail.

    If you time traveled the average 40 man raid from vanilla to BFA they wouldn't even be able to kill mythic champions, that's literally a loot pinata that has more mechanics then any fight in vanilla. Mechanics that if you mess up are either death are a wipe. Loot pinata in BFA, would of been hardest boss in classic.

    The average BFA players going into classic is going to perform at a MUCH higher level then "noobs" did in vanilla. Especially the majority which didn't have experience from EQ or other MMOs.
    I'd like to know wich planet you live on.

    BFA players arent more skilled than vanilla players, they just got access to more content, meaning they get more experience and knowledge. A skilled player from vanilla will have no issues with BFA content, and the other way. A bad player will be a bad player anywhere though, but in BFA he will be able to access more content.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    What do you guys think about this?

    I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

    I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?
    low levels dungeons were very easy.

    the reason people saw them as hard was that since you were low level you were new to the game, many of these people have now been playing for 15 years....

    higher level dungeons are abit harder
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    I'd like to know wich planet you live on.

    BFA players arent more skilled than vanilla players, they just got access to more content, meaning they get more experience and knowledge. A skilled player from vanilla will have no issues with BFA content, and the other way. A bad player will be a bad player anywhere though, but in BFA he will be able to access more content.
    Must be why Kungen failed every come back he attempted right?

    I live on planet reality, you live on planet nostalgia in case you where wondering.

    Oh and btw it was much more likely for bad players to get away being carried in vanilla then it is in BFA. Even humoring the idea that the average skill level of top guilds now is the same as back then is in fact a joke.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    /thread.


    They seemed hard if you didn't CC, pull right, or kill in the peoper order. Plus not knowing all the mechanics.
    It depends on the dungeon and the cc you have.

    If you actually did the dungeons at the lower end of the recommendation curve, they were in fact hard. However if you were at the upper end, they were a cake walk. Also having Deadmines as a first one versus RFC was a huge difference for newer players.

    Scholomance is a good example of a dungeon that if you had the right cc(a priest) it was super easy and without that cc you had a bit of a challenge in some areas.

    The tank you had also mattered dungeon to dungeon and there was a vast difference between raid tanks and dungeon tanks. Warriors were good raid tanks, but outclassed by druid and pally in dungeons where they weren't really viable in raids.

  10. #130
    dungeons in vanilla arent particularly hard. ESPECIALLY the lower level ones. the people who played classic are now older, more experienced, and know the game all too well so its just going to be trivial. classic wow will be a nice change from retail due to it being more immersive and adventure driven than about difficulty

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    They were never hard, just time consuming and requiring patience, sometimes confusing.

    Vanilla was never truly "hard", you just had so many roadblocks (many of which we are now better at handling/have better ideas of), that it seemed hard. It was an illusion.

    IMO TBC Heroics were the "hard" dungeons and even then it was easy, just once again tedious and time consuming. Same thing with the Cata heroics, people slammed how hard they were, people just didn't want to wait for healers to get mana.
    Most people who say TBC heroic dungeons weren't hard were playing them in tier gear already or are thinking of normal mode. There was nothing tedious about SH heroic or even BF heroic. Certain ones were definitely easier than others like Mech(although it's funny how many skipped the second boss). A lot of them had some serious cock blocks like the boss before Murmur in SL. Others had extremely punishing mechanics like Durnhold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angrys13 View Post
    I tanked 5 mans as fury, always. Yep. Super hard back then.
    Probably with a dedicated healer you knew, but let's leave out important facts to make yourself seem good and right.

  12. #132
    The tuning I don't care about: How hard are the dungeons? As a team, we can go slow and whittle down even the most difficult dungeons (if they tuned them hard).

    The tuning I really care about: How deadly are those defias mages in Moonbrook (Westfall)? I'll be solo questing, and those guys used to destroy noob version of me.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    You are just talking shit without any experience from vanilla.

    Things like LoS pulls were standard and UBRS kiting pulls at the end of the dungeon were standard for many specs. And this was at the beginning while farming pre-raid gear for MC. Soloing dungeons with LoS/Kiting started at MC/BWL progress and it was a basic thing to learn how to do them.

    Why would you even compare your private server children community with players not able to afford a subscription with the mature community of wow vanilla?

    FFS watch some of the old solo videos made at early vanilla or watch some of the strats for raidbosses involved kiting. Just because overgeared private server players faceroll the encounters, does not mean it worked out the same way with pre-raid gear in vanilla.
    I never played a private server, and my account is from day one 15 years ago. I still have TBC pre-event items in my bag, atiesh shards, eye of shadows and ZG shoulder enchants plastered over all of my gear from when I played the game. If that isn't proof enough, I still ride around on my unarmored white wolf.

    I hope you realize this fucking thread is about early dungeon content in Vanilla, not doing "high end" dungeon content. You can't fucking do level 50-60 dungeons in a beta where the level cap is 30. The original thread was claiming that people think that dungeon content was never this easy based on STREAMS of people doing level TWENTY TO THIRTY range dungeons. From my experience doing TWENTY TO THIRTY range dungeons 15 years ago, people were ABSOLUTELY fucking retarded, ran into everything and if you think it was common knowledge to kite and LoS then, well, I have a bridge to sell you.

    What credence does videos on youtube, of certain people (exceptional players) using LoS tricks and kiting to solo dungeons even prove? Nothing. I can link modern day WoW videos of rank one gladiators, or people who clear content first, and it doesn't mean that everybody can do it or it's common knowledge to pull that shit off.

    Considering my guild killed everything sans the last 3 bosses in Naxxaramas before the 2.0 patch (which puts us way ahead of the curve in regards to the general PvE community at the time), I can only give my experience with the game. There were people in my raid that just didn't understand how LoS worked on Firemaw. There were people who didn't realize that weapon skill on rogues and warriors was the absolute best stat. There were people in my raid in the early days of MC who thought the terribly itemized sets were better than +spell power gear in MC. Our first kill on Thaddius was 37 manned because 3 people couldn't make the jump to the platform.

    Spare me with the "you never played vanilla" so I'll just dismiss you opinion entirely. This thread was and is about the perception that the dungeons currently available on Beta seem too "easy", and guess what, they are. You know why? Because like I highlighted in my OP people are better, and lessons learned later absolutely apply to the very first content that appeared in the game. You realize that when people entered WC/DM/SFK for the first time that it was likely everyone's first venture into dungeon content 15 years ago.

    You also realize in addition to not knowing the layout of the dungeon, that general group and dungeon dynamics haven't been ingrained in peoples minds yet. Finally, you do realize that a lot of people entered these dungeons originally 15 years ago with all of those above points in addition to probably being under leveled for said dungeon? The game made you "feel" like you could enter the dungeon and progress all the way to the end (mobs guarding it were level appropriate), only to realize that the gap between the mobs at the start of the dungeon, and the end of the dungeon are 4+ levels away from one another.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Erous View Post
    I'll add that TBC per-nerf heroic dungeons were, imo, the hardest dungeons ever. Nothing like having all melee mobs 360 cleave.
    Mythic+ would like to have a word with you. Else link me your world first +30 BfA dungeon done in time.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Classic WAS fucking easy, people were just clueless back then.
    Yep, just shit players. Now everyone has keybinds, even marks are keybinded via macro for quick marking and cc. People know you probably want a poly in each group, people know what stats to get, what quest rewards make their character stronger, people are better/faster at healing and building aggro, everyone knows what bosses and trash mobs do. Also there are dungeon maps available on other sites that give you all connected quests and where to get them.

    Vanilla was slow, time consuming and it took a long time to complete tasks - especially those including travel. Also people have better internet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    What do you guys think about this?

    I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

    I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?
    You remember them being difficult because you and everyone in your group were terrible, with bad internet connection and probably clicking. Dead Mines was always easy with 5 people who weren't braindead and didn't break cc or ninja pull or go afk. Private servers had it wrong, get over it.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    You really dont think thats going to happen again?

    Ofcourse the streamers playing it now are breezing through it, because they are seasoned veterans. Come launch day and we'll be flooded with useless/ignorant/bad players again.

    Player skill is static, it doesnt evolve.
    I dunno. Even a dummy these days knows what trash skipping or LOSing is, whereas in vanilla the idea that you could LOS Chromaggus's abilities was revolutionary, and he was reached months into the game.

    Player skill doesn't evolve, but knowledge does. And WoW is at least as much about knowledge as it is about skill.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Classic WAS fucking easy, people were just clueless back then.
    This. A lot of people were keyboard turning clickers with bad computers and internet back then. Most of the content wasn't really difficult due to mechanics.

  18. #138
    Elemental Lord Khaza-R's Avatar
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    We are also comparing people with a high degree of knowledge and coordination vs people who had idea what they were doing back in Vanilla.

    I am sure when they do stress test you will see dugeons gets hard again.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    Mythic+ would like to have a word with you. Else link me your world first +30 BfA dungeon done in time.
    I mean of course something that scales up endlessly will be technically harder.

    I hate the timer though, BC and Cataclysm heroics were a ton of fun. Mythic+ feels like a chore. I miss when the game was an RPG not an e-sports platform.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2019-05-19 at 11:35 PM.

  20. #140
    Watching someone stream SFK right now, and if it will stay this easy then you can do dungeons 3-4 man if you want save yourself some loot competition or just can't find 5 peepz.

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