Everyone in the beta reporting that dungeons are REALLY easy :(

[Fred Skinner]

I think I'll have to disagree with you about skill remaining static. I would argue that as a whole, the WoW community has drastically improved over time.

No, thats not true. The skill cap has raised, the average skill remained static. Today, you got better good and great players, but normal players, which are the vast majority, did not become better.

[Aeula]

Dungeons were easy, I did some on a private server that intentionally buffed them and they were still easy. Welcome to classic. It’s mostly a time sink.

[Maquegyver]

Vanilla and TBC are some of my fondest memories. However, the difficulty in those days was mostly due to pure naivety of the community. Even the top end in Vanilla was largely playing the game blind (minimal min/maxing and minimal mods), with low fps, low resolution, and many it was their first MMO. Now people play on amazing pcs with high fps and resolution, they min/max fucking everything (my least favorite part of retail), and most have played MMOs for years now. If any vanilla/TBC boss was released now in its pure form it would get rolled in like 30 mins flat. Anyone denying that is just blind to reality.

There is no way other than a time machine to replicate that naivety and community spirit. It is gone. It will never be back in this game. That is just how life goes. Classic will tickle that feeling but as I said the cat is out of the bag now.

[Roar-Powah]

Depends on the group, the easiest content can be hard with idiots in the group and the same can be said for even modern WoW today.

UBRS can be a pain in the behind if the Hunter who is kiting the boss fails at it for instance, or a mage doesn't keep their target CC'd, Like i said just depends on the group.

[Grimreaper]

Highly doubt classic is going to attract many WoW/MMO "noobs". It will be a mix of old and retail players, and the average skill level will be about 100x higher then during actual vanilla.

Consider now that someone getting green parses in BFA runs is probably playing at a much higher level then the worst players did in top guilds in Nax, just from an apm and mechanical stand point alone.

To be honest here, watching some streams, 90% of all players currently in beta are absolutely frikkin terrible. And these are highly experienced players.

You cannot simply compare Classic to BFA, they are different games. BFA is just way more accessible for bad players.

[Grimreaper]

I think I'll have to disagree with you about skill remaining static. I would argue that as a whole, the WoW community has drastically improved over time. People now generally know how to play their class, know their role, dungeon mechanics, etc; or they at least know where to find all of that information.

Thats experience and knowledge, not skill. Also raising the skill cap does not mean players become better, they just get more room to shine.

There will always be baddies, and there will likely be a learning curve for people that never experienced Vanilla, but I think that the skill floor going into this is going to be much higher than it was when it launched in 2004.

Seriously doubt it.

[HavokHeart]

To be honest here, watching some streams, 90% of all players currently in beta are absolutely frikkin terrible. And these are highly experienced players.

You cannot simply compare Classic to BFA, they are different games. BFA is just way more accessible for bad players.

Yeah. Was watching 9/9 Mythic raiders wipe repeatedly in sfk... Not the same type of difficulty but it does require coordination

[Delekii]

What do you guys think about this?

I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?

Vanilla dungeons were fucking easy.

As with a great many things, rose tinted glasses allow for conflation of difficulty and duration. Long != hard, even though hard might equal long.

There is going to be a very similar response in terms of rotations when people start playing en masse. You dont get the sense of it when watching streams, but despite having a shitload of buttons, the majority of specs or classes use extremely few of them outside of exceptional circumstances. If you think rotations today are boring or dumbed down, wait till you play vanilla.

[urasim]

Thats experience and knowledge, not skill. Also raising the skill cap does not mean players become better, they just get more room to shine.


Seriously doubt it.

How many keyboard turners do you run into in live? I don't run into any. In classic it was 8 out 10 people.

[david0925]

was not, but should have, expected this kind of conspiracy theory to come up.

[Grimreaper]

How many keyboard turners do you run into in live? I don't run into any. In classic it was 8 out 10 people.

And that has nothing to do with skill in classic, because it's above the skill cap of the game. Theres barely any point in keybinding more than 3-5 abilities per class. You can play any class to 99% efficiency in classis with zero keybinds. I know that because i've done that.

[Tojara]

Come on dude, one thing is true, it was how tedious it could be having to pull while using CC one by one which made it seem "hard" back then. But you people are over-exagerating. I was a tank back then and ofc i knew about LoS, ofc hunters and casters knew about kiting, and i can asure you paladins knew how to stun.

It wasn't hard per se and i agree about that, but you are all here pretending people back then were monkeys or something.

Of course people learned a lot in all those years. Ofc internet/resources for playing made it easier. Ofc QoL changes/dumbing down many mechanics made it more pleasent to deal with. But it wasn't that bad like you guys are trying to pretend.

Like, come on, people were kiting Khazzak and friends to stormwind every single day, paladins stunned you 1 thousand times in duels and rogues knew well to interrupt (god even in ZG when fighting thekal we had rogues interrutp/stunlock-tanking one of the bosses), people usually pulled in dungeons (Specially in the narrow blackrock ones) using LoS. One thing is not having so much knowledge about the game back then, and a different one is pretending everyone back then were young and retarded and couldn't comprehend anything unlike know, where it seems fornite made kids turn into masterminds who can dominate every game flawlessly...

People were monkeys.

People are just slightly less monkey like now than they were. Can they still be impatient though? Absolutely.

The odd person knowing how to kite and LoS, doesn't equate to an entire population. Why you quoted me and made a large point about stuns/interrupts, when I literally said people being bad about that mostly hasn't changed, is beyond me. Those who PvP regularly and a portion of the PvE community knows how to use kicks and stuns when appropriate, what a shocker.

I actually like Vanilla/Classic for what it is, and what it was. It's still fun and it's still good, but the delusions that it is still incredibly difficult, or was ever truly difficult just don't ring true at all. You know why? Primarily because people have done it before and the information is already out there. I don't know about you, but my first play through of a game is more challenging than when I decide to pick it up again years later. And you know what? That's okay.

People can say the game is fucking easy and still enjoy it, holy shit lol. Something being easy and relatively straight forward isn't always a bad thing.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

While leveling in Vanilla you were grouping up with randoms, most of the time, who had no clue what they were doing. They were never hard, they took time but if you've at all played on private servers with people who know what they're doing then you should know that dungeons were easy. Some of the 55-60 ones are harder and requires more gear/setup (obviously) but none of them were mechanically hard, like everything else in Vanilla.

[Puremallace]

Classic WAS fucking easy, people were just clueless back then.

Basically this. Private servers WERE NOT CLASSIC! This is fucking hilarious to watch right now lol

[Lochton]

What do you guys think about this?

I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?

Eh.. The only hard parts of dungeons I recall had something to do with time/coordination. I didn't find them that hard.

Wailing Caverns: People fail at jumping, you have to wait.
Wailing Caverns: People fail at the miniature rock 'maze', you have to wait.
Dire Maul: People whisper you wrongfully because you ask for people to DM, believing you meant Deadmines.
Dire Maul: People get lost with the doors, you have to wait.
Sunken Temple: People fail at coordinating with the snake statues, you have to wait.
Sunken Temple: People fail at navigating the temple levels, you have to wait.
Sunken Temple: People fall through the hole in the floor, you have to wait.
Blackrock Depths: People fail to stay the whole run, you have to wait.
Blackrock Depths: People leave near the end, you have to get back to look for more, you have to wait.
Blackrock Depths: People get lost, you have to wait.
Blackrock Depths: People fail with torches, you have to wait.
Gnomeregan: People get lost, you have to wait.
Gnomeregan: People fall and die, you have to wait.
Gnomeregan: People quit on the way, you have to get out to look for more, you have to wait.
Gnomeregan: Ninja pulls, death coming, you have to wait.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

A few things that make me wonder. Not saying people reporting this are wrong or right because I got no REAL data, but just things to consider while listening to it. Now if we can start to see "normal" folks in these plays I get the feeling of this just falling over will drop a whole lot lower.

1. Most the people playing right now are likely above average players. Even if you think Asmongold sucks or whatever he isn't trash tier. Not in method or whatever, but not horrible.

2. Many of them are experienced with classic already. Either played it back in the day or played on PS a bit. Pretty big edge. Top that off with many of them are experienced with each other playing retail WoW and are working together very directly into classic.

3. They are running many of these places above the level. I mean I was seeing people doing DM with a group full of 20-25+ level players. Some were doing SFK with a level 30 or two in the group.

4. Many of them were using potions, elixirs, scrolls, food, and all kinds of stuff people didn't use in starter 5 mans back in the day.

5. Then top it off with 100+ fps, 20 ms, and the ability to scroll out and have a wide field of view.

[Askyl]

Dungeons while lvling up was easy and has always been, except if you tried it while too low lvl. Only dungeons while lvling I remember having to corpse run quite a lot was Gnomeregan (damn pulls) and Sunken Temple (damn pulls).

Except for those, the dungeons wasn't really hard. In TBC, the 5-man heroics was hard however. Damn those things.

[Shigma]

People were monkeys.

People are just slightly less monkey like now than they were. Can they still be impatient though? Absolutely.

The odd person knowing how to kite and LoS, doesn't equate to an entire population. Why you quoted me and made a large point about stuns/interrupts, when I literally said people being bad about that mostly hasn't changed, is beyond me. Those who PvP regularly and a portion of the PvE community knows how to use kicks and stuns when appropriate, what a shocker.

I actually like Vanilla/Classic for what it is, and what it was. It's still fun and it's still good, but the delusions that it is still incredibly difficult, or was ever truly difficult just don't ring true at all. You know why? Primarily because people have done it before and the information is already out there. I don't know about you, but my first play through of a game is more challenging than when I decide to pick it up again years later. And you know what? That's okay.

People can say the game is fucking easy and still enjoy it, holy shit lol. Something being easy and relatively straight forward isn't always a bad thing.

Well if you read my post, i never argued about it being difficult. But saying that noone could kite, stun/interrumpt, or LoS, is what's beyond me. There were monkeys, just as there are now. But my point is still there. It wasn't THAT bad.

[urasim]

And that has nothing to do with skill in classic, because it's above the skill cap of the game. Theres barely any point in keybinding more than 3-5 abilities per class. You can play any class to 99% efficiency in classis with zero keybinds. I know that because i've done that.

Haha, what? You obviously never played classic. Lets see you keyboard turn in fights like C'thun or anything in Naxx. Also, try keyboard turning in PvP.

Also, 3-5 key binds? What? Try play something that's not mage... Everyone had more than that in PvP. Only the DPS had that many in raids. Everyone else had many different skills and of those skills they had many different levels. Like "heal 1" and "heal 4" for example.

[Grimreaper]

Haha, what? You obviously never played classic. Lets see you keyboard turn in fights like C'thun or anything in Naxx. Also, try keyboard turning in PvP.

Oh but i did. Didnt kill C'thun though, and just got 5 bosses down in Naxx. Quite a bit of high-end (if you can call duelling all the highwarlords/grand marshalls high-end) pvp however, as warrior and rogue.

Also, 3-5 key binds? What? Try play something that's not mage... Everyone had more than that in PvP. Only the DPS had that many in raids. Everyone else had many different skills and of those skills they had many different levels. Like "heal 1" and "heal 4" for example.

No need when nearly every single ability shared a GCD. Like i said, it's way above the skill cap of classic. Not much point in keybinding when you still have to wait for ages between each action.

It's just interrupts off the GCD that had a point in being keybound.