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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    Yeah, I feel like what people really want is sort of a WoW 2.0. Clean slate, no cross-realm functionality, a return to traditional RPG elements and a fresh world/story to discover. Reading between the lines it seems like that's what people hoped Classic would be, but of course that was never a possibility.
    Ofc they want this. But classic fans mostly gived up that retail will ever change its direction. Expanaion after expansion we see how Blizzard push wow in completly different direction. So we atleast pushed for Classic to have atleast some peoper mmorpg experience. It isnt perfect but for those who like playing mmos it is far better than what we have now on retail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    It is bosses get new abilities and work differently that is new... Thank you playing and than trying to deflect 100iq play my guy.
    Still same content. Nobady gives *** about 1 or 2 new skills on mythic difficulty. Majority of playerbase dont see new difficulty as new content. There is no new boss, lore, enviroment. Nothing. Just same old stuff we have countless times defeated in LFR.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    I don't think that low level vanilla dungeons were hard. They were made for people who never played WoW before, who turn with keyboard and clicks spells with mouse, who disconnect every now and then and plays with 2000 ping. They were hard for noobs. No wonder that world-class players on modern computers breeze through them. I think that high-level dungeons will be harder.
    I still turn with a keyboard and click spells with a mouse. But I'm REALLY good at it after 15 years.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Ofc they want this. But classic fans mostly gived up that retail will ever change its direction. Expanaion after expansion we see how Blizzard push wow in completly different direction. So we atleast pushed for Classic to have atleast some peoper mmorpg experience. It isnt perfect but for those who like playing mmos it is far better than what we have now on retail.
    I miss the glory days of MMORPGs loads, and it's such a shame that in all this time nothing has come even remotely close to creating the kind of experience that WoW and EQ2 provided at launch.

    There's clearly a demand for old school MMOs but pretty much every recent effort has been terrible. I remember a while back Blizzard were developing a new MMO, which was eventually abandoned before they used the assets to create Overwatch - Even though it's super unlikely, I do lowkey hope that they're trying to find something which is solid enough to replace WoW. The constant changes in retail with systems getting designed, scrapped and reworked constantly would make so much more sense if they were pretty much using retail as a huge beta for potential ideas. What if the reason development resources were being allocated to classic was in part to gauge the response of modern audiences to a slower paced, story-driven RPG over the instant gratification of retail? Potentially a testing ground for layering technology as well.

    It's wishful thinking at best and completely making shit up at worst, but I'd love to see another proper MMORPG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Still same content. Nobady gives *** about 1 or 2 new skills on mythic difficulty. Majority of playerbase dont see new difficulty as new content. There is no new boss, lore, enviroment. Nothing. Just same old stuff we have countless times defeated in LFR.
    In fairness, Mythic does make the fights significantly more difficult. In fact I would argue that Mythic is the starting point for encounter design, and then Heroic and Raid Finder difficulties are created via a process of taking abilities away. As a result LFR bosses are completely pointless and there's no discernable character to any of the fights, where Heroic still feels incomplete. The encounters only really make complete sense on Mythic where the pacing, stakes and interactions of all the mechanics are as intended.

    You're right though. It's not new content as such, but that's exactly why LFR especially should not exist. There's a fair case for getting rid of Heroic too, and the reason is the same - it's an easier version of the available content, so it doesn't last as long. People do the easy versions to see said content, but the challenge alone doesn't motivate them so they call it a day. That's a real problem, and the only solution is to take the easy versions away so that if people want to experience all of the content, they have to also step up. I guarantee we would see a massive uptick in Mythic participation were it the only way to ever see the fights.
    Last edited by Elkfingers; 2019-05-20 at 05:01 PM.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Still same content. Nobady gives *** about 1 or 2 new skills on mythic difficulty. Majority of playerbase dont see new difficulty as new content. There is no new boss, lore, enviroment. Nothing. Just same old stuff we have countless times defeated in LFR.
    By this logic, no one gives a *** about this supposed difficulty of Classic, either. Which was certainly proven by Naxx participation statistics and directly quoted by Blizzard ages ago.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Ofc they want this. But classic fans mostly gived up that retail will ever change its direction. Expanaion after expansion we see how Blizzard push wow in completly different direction. So we atleast pushed for Classic to have atleast some peoper mmorpg experience. It isnt perfect but for those who like playing mmos it is far better than what we have now on retail.

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    Still same content. Nobady gives *** about 1 or 2 new skills on mythic difficulty. Majority of playerbase dont see new difficulty as new content. There is no new boss, lore, enviroment. Nothing. Just same old stuff we have countless times defeated in LFR.
    If nobody cared they wouldn't do it... The vast majority of people did clear raids in vanilla either. You getting really emotionally invested in the point maybe take a break from the computer.
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

  6. #326
    In vanilla, as long as I, as the Priest healer, wasn't directly being slapped around by a mob, almost nobody ever died. Even on bosses.

    Playing the Beta, it still holds true and that's fine by me. As long as you don't get 2+ groups things can be AOE'd down as long as some stuns go out or the occasional sheep on the caster mob.

    The later dungeons are a little harder as the mob density increases. However, people know how to pull things better today than then with actual LOSing and such so I can see those being more of a chore than a challenge.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    What do you guys think about this?

    I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

    I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?
    People don't know or remember that dungeons were nerfed many times over the first year. There were extra mobs everywhere in the the beginning, some were in circles of eight, some in sets of four on ramps placed close to each other. We didn't need to CC as much after the fixes. Long list of things like this including yellow zones aka contested zones on PvE servers. We had 12 people time we finally pulled together my first Scholo run, there were large circles of mobs just standing there. Maraudon starting adds were reduced two times. Bliz should change the game map at each patch so that all the Coords will be wrong again each time on the websites (this was one reason they purged most of those old posts). People have no clue from all I have seen on Vanilla, most of what I see is what was private servers, but we called those a joke because most of Vanilla was over before 1.12. All these posts are really funny.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by OGClennisell View Post
    When they originally came out, they were 40 man dungeons. UBRS and Strat would take 40 people. The Plague Ghouls in Strat would one-shot anyone within range of their AE poison. When we started MC I doubt there were more than 2-3 purples in the entire raid.
    You could 40-man raid UBRS and Strat but it was not the norm. I can't remember ever seeing more than 10-man (and very rarely 15) groups in Strat. UBRS did have some bigger runs, but that was still 10 to 20. Not 40. Many did 5-man Strat and 10-man UBRS.

    MC was easily cleared if you had the Fire Resist gear and enough decent players - it didn't require much dps. The difficulty was down to all the things others have mentioned - especially the bad/lazy/ultracasual players.

    I remember when we started using dps meter addons in my guild, and found that one hunter was only auto-attacking (with maybe a few abilities once in a while, like 3 arcane shot or similar). When asked why, she mentioned that typing in chat made ability use impossible. We had an AQ40 run with an almost naked priest, who had sold his gear during a ragequit and just wore a few pieces of grey and green gear in some slots. Tons of players had insanely bad builds and gear sets. So much "prestige" gear had awful stats. To be an above average player you didn't have to do much more than not slack, enchant your gear and have reasonable gear/talents. Casual players today min/max and have rotations more optimal than even good players back then.

  9. #329
    Many LFR end bosses are more demanding on an individual level than all the bosses in MC. LFR groups with mostly LFR tier players can wipe 5+ times on bosses like ToS Kil'Jaeden or even Argus and those are both more mechanically challenging than most vanilla encounters. I remember lots of determination stacks against Archimonde LFR in WoD. Even elite players in vanilla were clickers and keyboard turners. Those kinds of players are virtually extinct from the gaming hobby. They are just on Facebook instead of playing WoW.

    I played EQ1 as a teenager and WoW came out when I was a freshman in college. There are a lot of EQ design elements in WoW such as hard hitting bosses that chunk a lot of your health bar that you have to plan heals around. A lot of players played with very sub-optimal specs, bad understandings of things that are well understood like how much hit rating you needed, the wrong weapons, wrong stat allocations, and so on.

    As alluded to in other posts, people also wore prestige gear because it looked badass and didn't pay attention to things like terrible set bonuses, useless stat allocations, and so on because there was no simming and basic applications of simple algebra formulas were not widely understood. It was a eureka moment when some dude made a forum post explaining how amazing weapon skill was in raiding even though the formula is something a child could understand. It's just the formula hadn't been widely circulated and the only items to have +weapon skill on them were low level and obscure.

    People straight up not keybinding stuff was also more common in classic in part also because there are lots of loooong cooldowns that you will not even have up for every boss encounter because it's literally 30 minutes. Damage numbers from mobs are also very much not standardized both in the classic beta and in actual WoW. For example the non-elite satyr in the teldrassil newbie quest cave will super truck you with his fast attack speed and high damage in the classic beta right now, whereas the elite swamp monster in the south quest is a kitten that barely does anything even fought on-level. So you cannot necessarily generalize that all mobs hit for low damage, because some do extreme damage.

    A lot of EQ players were straight up clickers before because of how the EQ interface worked with the memorized spell gem buttons on the righthand side, and took their clicker habits into WoW.

    You also cannot say that regen is faster, because it's really dependent on spirit. You can watch some streamer not knowing that he has a ton of spirit gear on and thinking that regen is really fast. If you level a mage in classic beta right now you will see as your mage water becomes more out-dated you will need to drink the entire drink duration every pull until you get some spirit. With no spirit regen sucks real bad and it gets worse as you level up.
    Last edited by Mamercus; 2019-05-20 at 06:16 PM.

  10. #330
    Not a bug, dungeons WERE easy in vanilla

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    There's a fair case for getting rid of Heroic too, and the reason is the same - it's an easier version of the available content, so it doesn't last as long. People do the easy versions to see said content, but the challenge alone doesn't motivate them so they call it a day. That's a real problem, and the only solution is to take the easy versions away so that if people want to experience all of the content, they have to also step up. I guarantee we would see a massive uptick in Mythic participation were it the only way to ever see the fights.
    History says the opposite of what you are "guaranteeing". Participation at the highest levels of raiding has absolutely increased with the expansion of different difficulties. It would be absurd if you were trying to say the percentage of players doing mythic raids is now less than the percentage raiding when there was only a single difficulty.

    If you had put together raids when there was a single difficulty you would know this. Because when you lost players and had to refill, the options were poor. You either had to cannibalize another raid or you had to bring in someone with a big dropoff in gear and experience. Now you can bring up someone from a lesser difficulty and be much less impacted. It's better for the player too. If someone has been out of raiding for a while they can get their feet wet and get familiar with encounters before coming into a mythic raid for which they will hold back progression.

    Plus, if they cut raid participation by at least 70% there would be no way they would cost justify continuing to create the kinds of raids they have been doing.

    Lastly, I think you just don't understand that different players are skill capped in very different ways. Some people who love WoW raiding and maybe even play a lot are just never going to be able to raid at a mythic level, unless it is dumbed down and then players on the other end of the spectrum will be bored. Blizzard has very good reasons for having multiple difficulties. Out of all the bad decisions made with WoW, this isn't one of them.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    History says the opposite of what you are "guaranteeing". Participation at the highest levels of raiding has absolutely increased with the expansion of different difficulties. It would be absurd if you were trying to say the percentage of players doing mythic raids is now less than the percentage raiding when there was only a single difficulty.

    If you had put together raids when there was a single difficulty you would know this. Because when you lost players and had to refill, the options were poor. You either had to cannibalize another raid or you had to bring in someone with a big dropoff in gear and experience. Now you can bring up someone from a lesser difficulty and be much less impacted. It's better for the player too. If someone has been out of raiding for a while they can get their feet wet and get familiar with encounters before coming into a mythic raid for which they will hold back progression.

    Plus, if they cut raid participation by at least 70% there would be no way they would cost justify continuing to create the kinds of raids they have been doing.

    Lastly, I think you just don't understand that different players are skill capped in very different ways. Some people who love WoW raiding and maybe even play a lot are just never going to be able to raid at a mythic level, unless it is dumbed down and then players on the other end of the spectrum will be bored. Blizzard has very good reasons for having multiple difficulties. Out of all the bad decisions made with WoW, this isn't one of them.
    Fair point. I do get that not everyone can compete at a certain level. I guess it's kind of frustrating to have people flat out refuse to even attempt difficulties beyond LFR and them complain that there's nothing left to do.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    By this logic, no one gives a *** about this supposed difficulty of Classic, either. Which was certainly proven by Naxx participation statistics and directly quoted by Blizzard ages ago.
    Naxx had low particiation becouse of TBC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    If nobody cared they wouldn't do it... The vast majority of people did clear raids in vanilla either. You getting really emotionally invested in the point maybe take a break from the computer.
    Nobady = vast majority. We are not talking exact numbers. Thats cool there are some people enyoj playing with difficulty slider but such thing do not belongs into mmorpg game. And you cant make comparisons of highest difficulty of bfa to 1 difficulty of classic. Becouae thats not how are games with difficulty settings determined. If i can press 1 button and finish your game afk while watching youtube your game is in fact easy.

  14. #334
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    Seemed harder 15 years ago when the majority had no clue what was going on and a constant 20fps or less.
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  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Classic WAS fucking easy, people were just clueless back then.
    Exactly.

    This was predicted by many people. We've had a ton of experience since then.
    “When you do not recognize the wrongs of the past, the future takes its revenge.”
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  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xalvia View Post
    lfr or normal isn't real content my dude
    Don't be mean. He is just a 9 year old

    Ugh, some many ppl saying classic now instead of vanilla. So confusing :/

  17. #337
    I think there would be something wrong if the dungeons were considered difficult based on the level 30 cap and the fact the beta player base is highly experienced at playing the game. Players are going to be better in 2019 than they were in 2004 across the board.

  18. #338
    Did people actually expect dungeons to still be hard? Your comparing the skills of a 3 week noob to the skills of a veteran with around 10 years of experience.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    Fair point. I do get that not everyone can compete at a certain level. I guess it's kind of frustrating to have people flat out refuse to even attempt difficulties beyond LFR and them complain that there's nothing left to do.
    And why would they do that? Hmm? You seriously think that person what enyojs mmorpg game is interested in replayig exact same content just to get drops what are propably worse than anything from world content only too see yourself up difficulty again so you can get gear and up difficulty again. This progression desing is absolutly boring and do not belongs into mmorpg games. It is progression for ARPG games like Diablo 3. In mmorpg dungeons suposti be slow crawls with hard enncounters with proper reward. No difficulty nonsense, no artificial timer to make it artificialy difficult, no rush, no class meta, just your group and hostile instance full of secrets, rares and epic loot. Thats what classic dungeons are about. No this modern compettive nonsene with timer in box.

    Same for raids. It isnt even immersive. Whoo look at this epic villian. Now go and kill his 4 versions of him by swaping difficulty sliders in your interface menu. Truly epic.
    Last edited by Elias01; 2019-05-20 at 06:45 PM.

  20. #340
    I did Deadmines on a private server, modern one, it was two things

    1. Buggy as fuck
    2. Easy as fuck.

    Even still, private servers often buff the content to make it harder for various reasons though, such as to combat the fact that they were playing on a final patch where the classes were massively buffed compared to when the content was relevant, or to counter the fact that content might have been nerfed. It's hard for them to make the content "as it was" because during Vanilla it was a moving target.

    Combine that with the fact that private servers put their effort for chasing accuracy on what they deem important, low level dungeon tuning is probably not a priority to get perfect. Classic will be facing much the same problems, if all content is tuned as it was in 1.12 it will be a complete farce, because 1.12 classes were godly compared to launch classes.
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