Everyone in the beta reporting that dungeons are REALLY easy :(

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Naxx had low particiation becouse of TBC.

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Nobady = vast majority. We are not talking exact numbers. Thats cool there are some people enyoj playing with difficulty slider but such thing do not belongs into mmorpg game. And you cant make comparisons of highest difficulty of bfa to 1 difficulty of classic. Becouae thats not how are games with difficulty settings determined. If i can press 1 button and finish your game afk while watching youtube your game is in fact easy.

You said nobody cares but there are people who run and still run it which means it's not a waste. I was pointing out the vast majority of people playing vanilla on launch didn't care about raiding. The easy difficulty of the game is easy yes but it's not the beating the game in the way developers intended which is kind of the point.

[Gasparde]

Shockingly, a 15 year old game that was mostly played by clueless 12 year olds back then is now considered easy by the now 30 y/o people who now know everything inside out.

Even surprised Pikachu wouldn't be surprised by this shit.

[Itori]

Things didnt scale to level back then so getting a lvl 30 in deadmines because his weird ass wanted to show off made the dungeon a joke. Also we didnt have to start ccing mobs till around zf

[Specialka]

I miss the glory days of MMORPGs loads, and it's such a shame that in all this time nothing has come even remotely close to creating the kind of experience that WoW and EQ2 provided at launch.

There's clearly a demand for old school MMOs but pretty much every recent effort has been terrible. I remember a while back Blizzard were developing a new MMO, which was eventually abandoned before they used the assets to create Overwatch - Even though it's super unlikely, I do lowkey hope that they're trying to find something which is solid enough to replace WoW. The constant changes in retail with systems getting designed, scrapped and reworked constantly would make so much more sense if they were pretty much using retail as a huge beta for potential ideas. What if the reason development resources were being allocated to classic was in part to gauge the response of modern audiences to a slower paced, story-driven RPG over the instant gratification of retail? Potentially a testing ground for layering technology as well.

It's wishful thinking at best and completely making shit up at worst, but I'd love to see another proper MMORPG.



In fairness, Mythic does make the fights significantly more difficult. In fact I would argue that Mythic is the starting point for encounter design, and then Heroic and Raid Finder difficulties are created via a process of taking abilities away. As a result LFR bosses are completely pointless and there's no discernable character to any of the fights, where Heroic still feels incomplete. The encounters only really make complete sense on Mythic where the pacing, stakes and interactions of all the mechanics are as intended.

You're right though. It's not new content as such, but that's exactly why LFR especially should not exist. There's a fair case for getting rid of Heroic too, and the reason is the same - it's an easier version of the available content, so it doesn't last as long. People do the easy versions to see said content, but the challenge alone doesn't motivate them so they call it a day. That's a real problem, and the only solution is to take the easy versions away so that if people want to experience all of the content, they have to also step up. I guarantee we would see a massive uptick in Mythic participation were it the only way to ever see the fights.

To be accurate, they design Heroic mode first, then MM, then NM then LFR.

[Dergiab]

The hardest content in vanilla was about as hard as the average HC dungeon is on retail (with gear appropriate for that difficulty). Actually, HC dungeons are probably harder now in most cases. 90% of all bosses were just tank and spank and even when the newer ones came out you had to deal with like one or two abilities that usually were just - Don't stand in that!
Vanilla has nothing that comes even close to m+ or mythic raids these days.

That a ridiculous comparison, comparing pre-30 dungeons to Mythic+. Do you honestly think that retail Wailing Caverns for example are harder than Classic Wailing Caverns?

[WintersLegion]

Stratholme was also easy. Everything in Vanilla was easy. The 2004 average player was simply way worse than today's average player. This has been said millions of times because it is a fact. People still doubt it.

Yeah I don't understand where the idea that going back and doing something you already did many times before it's suddenly going to be hard again. It's just like Dark Souls yeah it's a hard game but after you beat it a few times it's going to get a lot easier for you just because you know what your doing and where to get the good items fast. Hell people have beaten Dark Souls with out even getting hit once.

[Zafire]

Try soloing deadmines in all quest greens as a level 30 Holy Paladin. I wasn't able to beat Mr. Cleef in vanilla retail, and it took me over an hour to make it to him. This was me coming from playing Final Fantasy XI for two years at this point (and I played a Red Mage, which played almost identical to a Holy Paladin), I want to say I was pretty efficient back then. Too bad I can't play Beta, would like to try it.

[Argorwal]

Things didnt scale to level back then so getting a lvl 30 in deadmines because his weird ass wanted to show off made the dungeon a joke. Also we didnt have to start ccing mobs till around zf

Kind like grabbing a few 390+ people in queue for a m0.

[Garymorilix]

These are echoes of discussion "content vs progress". You can read about it here+, here and here+ if you really interested.

tl;dr Obtaining end game's content is easier on retail, but its end progress on retail almost unobtainable since is mostly RNG or @$$-hours based (this is if generally omit details).

It remains only to find out what exactly you're trying to compare

Man I wish I could understand what you just said here. I won't mock your English but damn.
I won't read other random links. If you have anything to discuss please discuss here.

[Elias01]

You're missing the point. LFR, Normal and Heroic are more accessible versions of Mythic raiding. Mythic is the content, the other difficulties are there for less skilled players to see the cutscenes.

If you're not motivated by the challenge of doing content the way it was intended to be done, then that's on you. It is still content that exists, that I play, and that I enjoy. Mythic progression gives me plenty to do, and if LFR is all you can tackle then that's ok, but you don't get to complain just because you either can't or won't attempt anything more challenging.

The fact is that if you had ever progressed Mythic content you would know that it is, in fact, substantially different and a lot of work goes into making it. You don't attempt it and complain that it reuses the same assets, which is for one only partly true, and for two is fucking ignorant. It's not just a difficulty slider. There are new mechanics, new adds, existing mechanics function differently, and everything has more significant interactions. The fights are literally not the same fights.

Dude i was in hardcore progression guild till end of Cata. And things like LFR and difficulty levels completly killed my interest in above LFR content. Challenge is pretty poor motivation. It should be part of content but never goal. For majority of players goal is to defeate bosses and get loot. I can defeate bosses in LFR and i can get loot from faceroll world q. I wont do content what offers nothing but challenge. Remove everything below mythic raiding. Remove mythic+ and give us proper megadungeon classic style. With difficulty of mythic10 and i will be interested in retail content again. But as long as game offers easy mods and acessible difficulty levels without any exclusivity. I just wont care.

[zorkuus]

People were noobs who didn't have every little detail off the game readily available (or they just didn't bother to look it up from third party sites). This is how I played vanilla, it wasn't until TBC or WotLK that I got good at the game.

[Charge me Doctor]

Maybe so, but I also played Everquest 2 and that wasn't hard either by modern standards. Besides, WoW popularised the genre and most people weren't MMORPG veterans.

Actually EQ2 was quite hard (even by modern standard since you had to do a lot of non-matchmaked-community-related things to get anywhere), simply because it was unforgiving and you actually could lose a lot. Like, literally hours of your time going down the drain. But some people are fine with that since eve online is still huge. WoW also was a new kid on the block, it filled the niche people wanted to be filled by being more respectful with players time and adding new things to MMORPG genre, so being an "MMORPG veteran" didn't help you that much in case of wow, we even had one very cocky guy in our guild who came from lineage to wow, was constantly bragging how miss-easy game is, but quit it at level 30-40 because he didn't enjoyed it. You know why? He applied his MMORPG veterancy to WoW and just grinded the fuck out of mobs until they were green, then moved to new location and did the same thing. No dungeons. Barely any quests, just grinding, herbing to get money and buying shit from AH.

[Jastall]

Fair point. I do get that not everyone can compete at a certain level. I guess it's kind of frustrating to have people flat out refuse to even attempt difficulties beyond LFR and them complain that there's nothing left to do.

Honest question: are these the kind of players you actually want in your Heroic+ raids?

Fuck knows I don't. Let them stay in LFR if they wish so, I'll stay in my difficulty. Makes them happy and makes no difference to me.

[The Stormbringer]

It's almost like it's a fucking BETA, and the number aren't properly tuned yet.......

There isn't, nor will there be tuning, as people have said. The numbers are coming directly from a database. The only things that might need it are the occasional ability or mob that's bugged in some way, causing its numbers to be off.

[Soluna]

Knowing how and when to skip mobs and content, imo, doesn't prove skill. At least that's my understanding of how you're required to do m+ nowadays, isn't it? The most qualified to cheese and skip content in the most creative ways are the best.

It requires great knowledge of how to run a dungeon and still, if you haven't done m+ (which it clearly seems like you don't, you just offer an outsider pov judging by your comment), you need to handle big packs, kill them fast, and maintain a really precise interrupt/stun/disorient/fear/w,e rotation, in order to be able to kill the mobs without getting one shot.

All the mobs are a lot more difficult to deal with due to affixes, and just like m+, you needed to have a great deal of knowledge to do Heroic Dungeons in TBC successfully. Could you do a TBC dungeon in 10 hours? Ye you could, but so can you do a +20, or 25, providing you have that key. The only thing you won't get is a harder difficulty, as you weren't good enough to beat the timer, and earn a higher difficulty. If it was as easy as you say, everyone and their mother would be able to easily do +15s, or +20s or +25s.

I bet that your opinion of M+ partly comes from the recent MDIs, where the FotM teams are the norm, with 2x outlaws, a WW, a resto druid and a prot warrior, but all this zerging you see is something that no average, or even good player could do, it's something only the best could do, and the rest of us couldn't even hope of achieving. And just like there are FotMs in bfa, there are in classic too, and that's why most parties were filled with rogues and warriors, and the same thing goes for TBC, the best classes were preferred.

But what do I know? I raid in a top 100 guild over many tiers, and +20 dungeons are my limit, but I guess I suck balls, and tbc would hand my balls to my mouth, since it's definitely something I cannot handle, given the limited experience I have. I imagine that if a +25 on time doesn't prove skill, tbc HCs would be impossible for poor little me

[nexellent]

well yeah its based in 1.12, unless dungeons are buffed its gonna be a joke until 40+dungeons

[Alkizon]

Man I wish I could understand what you just said here. I won't mock your English but damn.
I won't read other random links. If you have anything to discuss please discuss here.

And what's up with my English? I mean, concept is simple, and in fact there is nothing much to understand here:

------
if in brief:
...if you compare content, then new one is many times easier, and if you compare progress, then due to its technical component (boss mechanics/unattainability due to characteristics of itemization) it's easier in old version, which doesn't prevent it from being more difficult for other reasons (raids' group mechanics (threat vs resource managment, preparing), although this is also a question with regard to "illegal" toolkit size, which most modern players (had to?) have), which means that answer isn't simple and comparison process requires additional parameters;
...when we talked about progress before, we also mostly meant specific content available to you and now this won't be true (raids are content and progress, bosses are stages of content and progress, but modes aren't any of it since you already saw everything here; it's just a little bit more of progress (ilvl/ap?), but not content, if gameplay is interesting enough, it could turn into something resembling PvP seasons and can be quite entertaining, but, I repeat, neither this nor the other is content and you know it; competitions (E-sport?) is virtually lack of content and gameplay is the only thing (together with "watching its shou") that they offer you)
------

Therefore, if arguing goes about content, then you are wrong, and judging by text, that's exactly this situation. A couple of additional abilities or mechanics in another mode doesn't change fact and history of killing, lore component (no extra story/locations/quests = no development in content = same content) doesn't consider this as something "different".

[Garymorilix]

And what's up with my English? I mean, concept is simple, and in fact there is nothing much to understand here:

Therefore, if arguing goes about content, then you are wrong, and judging by text, that's exactly this situation.

Did you just imply that having harder difficulties is not content? Oh my God.
Content is not easier. Or you think pressing a 4 button rotation is easier than spamming frostbolt then I have no words.
Let me explain my definition of difficulty: the more input and attention needed the higher the difficulty.
By this metric I don't consider numerical 'artificial' difficulty actually difficult. Which is what vanilla was. The fact that you had to farm x resist gear or whatever does not make the actual raid harder. This is artificial difficulty. It's a binary thing: you either have x stat or don't.
Today raids have a million abilities and stuff to avoid/soak/press/burst/kite whatever. Saying that it's easier than before is a blatant lie based on bias. You can Say you liked it better Back then idc, but don't make false claims.

Classic was easy. But don't take it from me. You'll se how fast MC will be cleared after release. Hint: very fast.

[Grimreaper]

People were noobs who didn't have every little detail off the game readily available (or they just didn't bother to look it up from third party sites). This is how I played vanilla, it wasn't until TBC or WotLK that I got good at the game.

No you didnt. Content just got more accessible for you.

[zorkuus]

No you didnt.

It's nice that you know me better than I do.