Everyone in the beta reporting that dungeons are REALLY easy :(

[Saverem]

What do you guys think about this?

I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?

I remember the 60 (LBRS/Scholo/Strath) dungeons and how you had to CC trash packs (sap/sheep/root) or you couldn't do them. Don't think the leveling ones were THAT hard. I recall Wailing Caverns having some tough bosses, but don't remember the trash being hard enough to require CCing.

[Alkizon]

Hint: very fast.

(it won't be so simple, but let suppose that it happens) and there's nothing wrong with that, because:

So if a lot of dif.modes isn't content, then you should compare the easiest difficulty for particular “content” for adequacy of your discussion (precisely when discussing content difficulty), but not the most complex one. It's normal vs LFR and now think about what is it for Ulduar. Do you both understand this?

But if you want to compare progress difficulty, here is a smarter maze, because see the quote: now "all content is consumed easily through easiest difficulty, and progress, which's indicator are equipment(ilvl)+AP, isn't attainable in principle by virtue of mechanics (process is accessible to all regardless of ability and experience, since doesn't require any such stuff to participate (=borderless in terms of content), but is unachievable for anyone)". They simply missing development "ceiling" in current design (not only for a particular player due to limited time and opportunities/abilities, but in general for all). There is no end for "progress" for anyone and since there is no end, so there is no goal to reach that end, which was (still is! I'm not talking specifically about this game) main playing motivator for most people. That is, developer’s trick isn't to make it unattainable in principle, but so that it can be reached by average at a certain time defined by devs (even if this time is transferred to next expansion for some and for some in advance of this deadline), and concepts of progress and content shouldn't be separated here, their division is artificial and vicious for this particular game.

but this all was about essence of comparison and in this case it's necessary to compare LFR (that is the easiest level of content obtaining) with... which one? but Classics didn't have other levels so...

ps. You may like it or not, it can agree with your attempts at argumentation or not, but this is how it is in fact.

[Molis]

Whoever this "everyone" is lost all credibility when they reported quest markers missing as a bug.

[cparle87]

I'll add that TBC per-nerf heroic dungeons were, imo, the hardest dungeons ever. Nothing like having all melee mobs 360 cleave.

And stealthed orc rogues in Shattered Halls and Shadow Labyrinth who could kill your healers before they knew they were in trouble. And needed five kinds of CC.

[Grimreaper]

Did you just imply that having harder difficulties is not content? Oh my God.

Having multiple difficulties doesnt add content, it just makes it more accessible for bad players.

Content is not easier. Or you think pressing a 4 button rotation is easier than spamming frostbolt then I have no words.

The difficulty of the content is not measured by the difficulty of maintaining your output alone.

Let me explain my definition of difficulty: the more input and attention needed the higher the difficulty.

I can name litteral 1button specs from vanilla that are harder to execute than any and all specs in BFA.

By this metric I don't consider numerical 'artificial' difficulty actually difficult. Which is what vanilla was. The fact that you had to farm x resist gear or whatever does not make the actual raid harder. This is artificial difficulty. It's a binary thing: you either have x stat or don't.

Having multiple gear requirements for all of your raiders does add difficulty, unless you are playing with bots.

Today raids have a million abilities and stuff to avoid/soak/press/burst/kite whatever. Saying that it's easier than before is a blatant lie based on bias. You can Say you liked it better Back then idc, but don't make false claims.

The numbers of abilities are irrelevant when none of them are important.

Classic was easy. But don't take it from me. You'll se how fast MC will be cleared after release. Hint: very fast.

Ofcourse it will be. Because theres people whom have cleared it 20+ times on fresh servers. However for half-decent semi-casual players whom havent seen the place before, it's going to be exactly like back in the days.

[zorkuus]

Whoever this "everyone" is lost all credibility when they reported quest markers missing as a bug.

There is some credibility to the claim that dungeons are/feel easier.

However for half-decent semi-casual players whom havent seen the place before, it's going to be exactly like back in the days.

No it won't. Close to it? Maybe. But not exactly like it was, not even close (pun). A half-decent semi casual player knows how to play the game, they're just not taking part in cutting edge content (they're casuals duh). You must be talking about total noobs.

[seleri]

Dungeons were easy back then, especially in 1.12. Either people's memories are wrong or they're used to private servers that got the numbers wrong. I tank, healed, and DPSed them all as a teen that had barely touched MMOs before and had no idea what I was doing.

The only kind of challenging dungeons were BRS and timed Strat which would be the equivalent of a Mythic 0 these days, and that's being generous.

If you want to play Classic because it was "hard" then you're playing for the wrong reason.

[Hellfury]

Dungeons up to 60 were all easy, the hard part was to know how to navigate/know tricks some of them and not get lost lol since they were abit of a maze/puzzle, Maraudon/ Dire Maul, comes to mind.

I remenber doing them as a lock with a Retri "tank" pala using seal, a Shadow Priest "healing" without shadowform ofc, a rogue that didnt knew what kick was and a hunter that always pulled mobs with his pet. Yes... those were my friends, the real hard part was getting those 5 ppl together for some hours

[Grimreaper]

No it won't. Close to it? Maybe. But not exactly like it was, not even close (pun). A half-decent semi casual player knows how to play the game, they're just not taking part in cutting edge content (they're casuals duh). You must be talking about total noobs.

Plenty of casual players are doing high M+ and mythic raiding, do not confuse casual with bad.

I knew how to play the game back in the days aswell, when first stepping my foot inside MC. I'm no better today than i was back then, the skill-cap was just lower.

[Nitros14]

Ofcourse it will be. Because theres people whom have cleared it 20+ times on fresh servers. However for half-decent semi-casual players whom havent seen the place before, it's going to be exactly like back in the days.

I don't think so.

1.12 talents and 16 debuff slots will mean player characters are dramatically stronger than when people first did Molten Core.

But realistically even back in the day Molten Core was a very easy instance that was cleared up to Majordomo the first week, who didn't die right away because of the rep gate and Ragnaros was only up for a bit because of the fact you could only fight him 1 hour a week like Algalon.

[zorkuus]

Plenty of casual players are doing high M+ and mythic raiding, do not confuse casual with bad.

I knew how to play the game back in the days aswell, when first stepping my foot inside MC. I'm no better today than i was back then, the skill-cap was just lower.

You're contradicting your previous point. Casual doesn't mean bad player... and we agree on that. So how can vanilla feel as challenging to these players as it did back in the days when they were more than just casuals (they were noobs)?

[Flurryfang]

I once beat Baron Rivendare as a rogue by staying out of his dmg aura and using throw. Trust me, people were just dumb back then, not knowing what to do to increase their dps. The game was tuned for people being idiots at most lvls, so its understandable that veteran players are knocking dungeons all over.

[Grimreaper]

I once beat Baron Rivendare as a rogue by staying out of his dmg aura and using throw. Trust me, people were just dumb back then, not knowing what to do to increase their dps. The game was tuned for people being idiots at most lvls, so its understandable that veteran players are knocking dungeons all over.

Was that when rogues throw ability didnt have a cooldown and could just be spammed? Rogues could do equal or better dps than hunters cause of it :P

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You're contradicting your previous point. Casual doesn't mean bad player... and we agree on that. So how can vanilla feel as challenging to these players as it did back in the days when they were more than just casuals (they were noobs)?

Because "skill" is static. You never become a better player other than aquiring more knowledge or experience. And no, experience in BFA is not equal to experience in Classic.

[Flurryfang]

Was that when rogues throw ability didnt have a cooldown and could just be spammed? Rogues could do equal or better dps than hunters cause of it :P

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Because "skill" is static. You never become a better player other than aquiring more knowledge or experience. And no, experience in BFA is not equal to experience in Classic.

It was when it did lower dmg than wanding xD It was slow, every 1½ sec throwing for low dmg


Lets just say, that i did not do it because it did more dmg than doing melee abilities. I thought the dmg aura would kill me and that Rivendare was just a non-melee boss ><

[zorkuus]

Because "skill" is static. You never become a better player other than aquiring more knowledge or experience.

Duh... one gains skill through experience (so it's not static). I don't know where you're trying to go with this.

[Scottyjscizzle]

What do you guys think about this?

I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?

Which dungeons, because I remember pretty vividly tanking on my bear wearing shitty quest gear 90% of which did nothing for my mitigation. Nothing besides endgame wow was hard, and even then it was partially due to having to find the amount of people with time to run it.

[zorkuus]

Which dungeons, because I remember pretty vividly tanking on my bear wearing shitty quest gear 90% of which did nothing for my mitigation. Nothing besides endgame wow was hard, and even then it was partially due to having to find the amount of people with time to run it.

I was stubbornly trying to do the whole jack of all trades thing with my druid in vanilla, even though it didn't work at all like I wanted it to. Yet I was still able to tank just fine in dungeons. People were often complimenting me even though I kinda sucked. I guess they were just happy to find a tank.

[Grimreaper]

Duh... one gains skill through experience (so it's not static). I don't know where you're trying to go with this.

No, thats performance. Skill is the rate are wich you learn, your reaction times and your perception.

[saidolol]

Vanilla was never hard. It only took time.

[zorkuus]

No, thats performance. Skill is the rate are wich you learn and your reaction times.

I hate to break it to you but you can improve those aswell through experience, albeit not as fast maybe. So it's not static.