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  1. #481
    What did you expect?
    Even the most clueless 2019 player will have 100x more information and experience than the average vanilla player.

  2. #482
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Seems like easy money then, shall we say 100g? 100g for me if I win, 300 for you if you win ;D

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well the claim is it'll be cleared on day one. I'm lenient so I'll stretch that to 2 weeks. If there's ANY truth to the claim, it's easy money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Wanna put money on that? I’ll give you 3 to 1 odds that it wont be cleared in the first 2 weeks ;D
    You already said 2 weeks... so.... so how are you being lenient by... making it 2 weeks...? do you mean 3 weeks?

    his claim of it being cleared day 1 was what it is on private servers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  3. #483
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    You mean cataclysm heroic dungeons.
    Not really, no. TBC had some trully nasty 5 mans that no one really ran outside of atunement quests. Sure, Slave Pens/Mechanaar (with 3rd boss skip) were easy. Arcatraz though? Fuck that, finish the place, have the entire guild turn in the quest instantly and never return.

  4. #484
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Not really, no. TBC had some trully nasty 5 mans that no one really ran outside of atunement quests. Sure, Slave Pens/Mechanaar (with 3rd boss skip) were easy. Arcatraz though? Fuck that, finish the place, have the entire guild turn in the quest instantly and never return.
    nah, you sound like a person who did not do the heroic cata dungeons when they first went live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    You mean cataclysm heroic dungeons.
    Cata HC's were dead easy if only you cc'd the correct mob. It was just that people that were used to rep-running lfg Wrath HC's overgeared to the gills for 12 months in 'just pull the instance' mode, and had lost all sense of what to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    nah, you sound like a person who did not do the heroic cata dungeons when they first went live.
    He's right though.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    nah, you sound like a person who did not do the heroic cata dungeons when they first went live.
    I don't remember having any issues at all with Cata dungeons, even on release.

    TBC dungeons weren't that bad either if you used CC like sheep/trap. Some of the big pulls in Shattered Halls etc. though were pretty nasty on the tank. I remember melee whining alot, because loads of mobs had close to 360 degree cleave (big naga dudes in Steamvault etc) and also melee didn't bring any CC, so most people took ranged.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    Exactly. Classic was never hard. Just tedious in some ways.
    It was hard if you take away the knowledge base and skill people have now. That's like saying hitting or throwing a baseball back in the 60s was easy if we sent someone from the pros today to do it.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Watchers View Post
    yes cause videogames started on 2004 :faceplm:

    Not everyone was bad, its true that there were many noobs.
    Ofc, I don't think people are saying that literally everyone was bad, there's skilled played even back than, that's why there's 3-5 man Onyxia kills in late Vanilla, while others were still struggling w/ her w/ 20ppl.

  9. #489
    - Ask for classic "no changes", cause it was "sooooo hard" (most people were virgin teenagers back then, everything was hard)
    - Blizzard provides classic "no changes"
    - Complain that classic "no changes" is too easy
    - "Certified Retards" achievement completed

    In other news, Cata heroics were absolutely insane and absolutely impossible to complete in LFG when they were first introduced, not the pale versions that came after the insane rage from the community who DID ask for "hard dungeons as in TBC" . Both the originals, but especially the Zul'Gurub ones. Oh boy, comparing those with classic dungeons is beyond silly.

    First response to the rage was Ghostcrawler posting this design philosophy

    https://www.wowhead.com/news=179780/...geons-are-hard

    which was followed by a more insane rage and name calling and what not.

    Second response was a full nerf, I remember at one time I was leveling an alt and I queued for a dungeon as a tank. Only when it was done and I got the achievement I noticed that it was heroic, even though I didn't want to do heroic as a tank because I thought they were hard as I remembered from my previous painful runs

  10. #490
    They're supposed to be easy. The reason why people remember them being difficult is because everyone was a noob back then.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    sure, without Dreadnaught taunt chance improvement set bonus or sufficient frost resist gear 4HM and Saff will be very difficult.

    That is not really the encounters themselves being difficult though, because they aren't (Yes, I did both of them in vanilla)
    This is a faulty argument. Sure, modern encounters may have more mechanics but bosses in Naxx, AQ40 etc. still had plenty of mechanics; adding more complexity and orders to follow is a form of difficulty but not the only one.

    In my experience, the majority of guilds raiding in vanilla were undergeared and often didn't have the optimal classes for each encounter. (you could also say there were a proportion of inexperienced/inoptimal players that needed to be carried - but this should be a natural thing as people have to learn etc.) So although the tuning for 40mans was quite gentle, most guilds came at them from a position of weakness which meant a lot of players had to maximise their performance in everyway, and thus it became quite difficult.

    So although there may be some objective metric by which the raids were easier, in practice they were actually rather challenging.

  12. #492
    But low level dungeons were easy? We'd wade through wailing caverns killing random shit with voidwalker pet tanks and no proper healers.

    BRD hall with the stupid fires might be a bit challenging at low gear levels, and doing the UD Strath gauntlet with only 5 people was a challenge. But if you expected wailing caverns to sodomize you, well you might be expecting too much.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    You already said 2 weeks... so.... so how are you being lenient by... making it 2 weeks...? do you mean 3 weeks?

    his claim of it being cleared day 1 was what it is on private servers.
    My statement of this bet was in response to a poster claiming it may be cleared day 1 on official classic. I stretched that “day 1” to 2 weeks to give some room for error. Not my fault if someone replies with private server data on a classic wow discussion

  14. #494
    TBF, in some people's defence. Earlier versions of vanilla were in fact harder, Blizz repeatedly nerfed tf out of dungs and mobs over its course, some dungeons were pretty much overhauled. So plenty of legit vanilla players remember earlier versions of the game because that's when they're actively levelling.

    So people were way worse at the game, earlier versions were harder than 1.11-1.12, as the result people feel that vanilla wow was super hard, but in reality it wasn't super hard, it's okay, but 1.11/12 is the easiest version of vanilla, and it's also the most short-lived one, TBC was looming, heck, people even gave up on Naxx because of it. So most people don't even remember 1.11-1.12, that's like last 6 months of vanilla.

    I think that's why so many legit vanilla players are genuinely surprised by the easiness of Classic.

  15. #495
    "You think you do but you don't"

  16. #496
    They never were hard, they were simply gear checks since most of your tanks mitigation is just having high enough armor/def stats. Same as your healer, all dependent on gear. The dungeon will be as easy/hard as your group is equipped. Mechanics are non existent.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Triden View Post
    At least part of the difficulty in some of these dungeons that people probably remember came from the huge level range in some of the earlier ones. Deadmines was 15-25. You get quests for it at 15, but the mobs and bosses toward the end are around level 25. If you're trying to put a group together, you'll probably end up with some people in the 16-18 range, which is fine at the beginning of the dungeon, but as you get further in you start missing most attacks and things get prohibitively difficult. A lot of the people you're seeing do it on streams now are going in with people they know who also know about the level requirement. If you do Deadmines with people who are level appropriate for mobs and bosses at the end, it'll be relatively easy if you don't do anything dumb. If you try it earlier (or are forced to due to who's available to go), it'll be harder.
    A lot of the quests were designed to just go in for the one item/boss and come back another time which was silly. Sometimes it was like wtf again why couldn't you have told me to kill that guy while I was there?

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Erous View Post
    I'll add that TBC per-nerf heroic dungeons were, imo, the hardest dungeons ever. Nothing like having all melee mobs 360 cleave.
    I hate you for bringing back bad memories in tbc.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    They never were hard, they were simply gear checks since most of your tanks mitigation is just having high enough armor/def stats. Same as your healer, all dependent on gear. The dungeon will be as easy/hard as your group is equipped. Mechanics are non existent.
    And thats how it should be. Gear should be huge factor. Also retail have lot of mechanics but you can pretty much ignore them all and aoe pull pretty much nonstop.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Marston View Post
    Those were outdoor mobs though and the concern so far (which seems to be no concern) is that something is wrong with elite mobs or at least dungeon elites.
    Blizzard confirmed the numbers are correct. If I have to choose someone in this argument I kind of have to side with Blizzard even if they are the evil empire. They have an actual database. PS admit to educated guesses. The outdoor mobs to show confirmation that PSers were wrong in the educated guesses, even if they were decent, and usually on the lower end. It might not be a direct answer to elites in 5 mans but it is a pattern that's recognizable at the very least. It gives me comfort enough to project benefit of the doubt and I see no reason to tinfoil hat on the matter. In either case I am happy people reported it for Blizzard to check because thats a good thing. But the matter is pretty much put to rest. Unless we want to enter the realm of conspiracy which I guess you might.

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