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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    Right so if they were all so piss easy, why are the ppl in classic reporting the levelling to be much harder?
    Because scaling was ass?

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Obv, you beat Mythic KJ and world first Jaina mythic?
    Of course not, I don't want bore myself to dead.

    Did you cleared Naxx in Vanilla?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by precious View Post
    You think he was even in classic back in 2004 clearing current raids?
    Some people have really hard times to understand people are not talking about raids here.

  3. #623
    Dungeons have never been hard. They've always been a stepping stone into raids. This game has never and will never be about skill or difficulty. It's gear a grind. It's a mobile game without the microtransactions.

  4. #624
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskra View Post
    This whole thread seems to be very confused about most things. Yes, players are better now than they were in Vanilla, yes players know how to properly gear and CC, and yes dungeons were never that hard to begin with. But none of those things are what makes the dungeons on Classic beta feel easier than expected. Notice how I say "expected", because everyone on beta has expectations on how hard dungeons should be; many have lots of experience with them prior and know them in and out. No, what makes the dungeons feel easy is that they feel undertuned. The elite mobs just don't do enough damage. Not only do you see a group of lvl 30's clear SM Armory without a single wipe, you literally see groups consisting of nothing but clothies blast through lvl 30+ dungeons without anyone going below 50% hp, and they usually don't even need any type of CC. Player skill obviously contributes to them being able to do this, but elite mob damage should not be so low as to not endanger the life of classes with the lowest armor values in the game. I feel it's a problem, because it sorts of undermines the intended group structure for dungeon content.
    this is being ignored in this thread, despite being the central complaint. It is further interesting that almost universally the complaint is that while outdoor leveling feels tuned right, instances don't.

    The expectation is that no matter how
    a) good players have gotten
    b) easy the content always was
    c) blizzard has an alleged 1.12 ref client (ref: demo health mana regen)

    a tank running into the middle of a bunch of elites should be taking damage and needing heals pretty fast. it often isn't happening. a-c cannnot explain this. A pull should generate a certain range of net dps to players, period, even if done perfectly. Not using cc should increase this damage.

    Either damage is lower, or swing timers/internal caster cooldowns have been increased while keeping integer damage per swing static.

    the swing timer idea is interesting because it would keep combat log numbers in line with authentic vintage videos while substantially nerfing damage, and would require substantially more work to detect. I do not know that this is the case - I am only thinking through what could cause the widespread perception that net elite damage per pull is too low.

    I think it is noteworthy that 2.0-2.2 videos should be good information on mob damage as well - old world was almost completely left alone until 2.3.

    I will also suggest comparing 2.3-2.4 videos, and then comparing 3.x videos (at some point there were additional dungeon nerfs in 3.xx I think).
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2019-05-26 at 02:35 PM.
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  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by precious View Post
    Thousands of hours to preper for MC and clear it? Do u live in some parralel universe? So if u need lets say 2k hours, that equals 83 days for someone that plays 24 hours, or 160 days for someone that plays 12 hours per day or over 2-3 years for someone that plays 2-3 hours per day. So by the time u reach naxx u will be at least 20 years older.

    Let me see if i understand correctly. 3-5 months average to lvl>enter>clear mc? Weird cause when i did it took less than 4 months to do it concidering i had no clue what was going on and with a raid most of the times with less than 35 ppl cause of dcs, afks etc. But today after 16 years for some magic reason will take playerbase years to clear MC.

    Lets go to the lfr part. Since u havent run anything above lfr when it was introduced lets see a history of lfr bosses. Entire heart of heart nerfed once in lfr, sha was nerfed twice in lfr, dark animus nerfed in lfr, durumu nerfed 5 times in lfr, lei shen was nerfed in lfr, blast furnace was nerfed in lfr, blackhand was nerfed in lfr, archimonde was nerfed in lfr, kj,avatar,maiden nerfed god knows how many times in lfr, ghuun nerfed twice in lfr. I guess all the ppl that cried they couldnt kill lfr bosses was the hc/mythic raiders apparently? If i had to bet i would say it was u that cried for nerfs that couldnt kill lfr bosses. All those cries about lfr bosses being hard was either the bosses had "some decent" difficulty or simply u just pressed only one button as u said. The shitshow in mop and legion of stacks of determination was on another lvl.

    Also u cant clear raids in classic while doing nothing? Its called boosting. Happening since 2004. U cant ignore mechanics in classic? U mean the one mechanic that wasnt oneshotting in most cases? U mean healers staying at the further distance from raid to be able to be out of combat and rezz pplz while the rest were fighting the boss? Those kind of mechanics? The 255 lines macro of warriors when u just pressed it once and it was doing the entire rotation of warriors abilities and stances?
    It doesnt matter. Players do not enjoy difficulty sliders but they do enjoy classic raiding. No matter if this is easy or that is harder. Retail raiding is not fun to do and yes part of what makes raiding in retail boring is presence of difficulty levels. Classic raids and dungeons are far more fun and rewarding experience than anything at retail at the moment. You can praise mythic dungeons and mythic raiding as you want. For majority of players game have no iniciative to do them. It is boring farm to get better gear what is inalidated and completly reseted next wow season.
    Last edited by Elias01; 2019-05-26 at 02:30 PM.

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Of course not, I don't want bore myself to dead.

    Did you cleared Naxx in Vanilla?

    - - - Updated - - -


    Some people have really hard times to understand people are not talking about raids here.
    No its about dungeons and according to u ppl it took u thousands of hours to preper for raids, and since dungeons was a big part of gearing for raids i have ppl telling me of how they spended 3-5 hours inside dungeons to clear them cause of high difficulty. It wasnt the shit class balance or no toolkit or the shitty internet or the clueless ppl. It was pure high difficulty of dungeons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    It doesnt matter. Players do not enjoy difficulty sliders but they do enjoy classic raiding. No matter if this is easy or that is harder. Retail raiding is not fun to do and yes part of what makes raiding in retail boring is presence of difficulty levels. Classic raids and dungeons are far more fun and rewarding experience than anything at retail at the moment.
    So all those 3.7 mil players that did that slider difficulty in m+ and the 500k plus that did hc and mythic BOD last week according to raider io and warcrtaft logs, did not enjoy the multiple difficulties but went and do it cause they had a gun pointed to their head. And since classic raiding is more fun for ppl and the only source of that is PS servers since classic isnt out yet, we come to the conclusion that over 500k ppl do classic raiding on PS since its more popular than retail. Lets add another 3-4 million that dont raid and we have aproxx 4 million ppl playing classic worldwide on PS servers.

    And before u say anything about the above numbers all the entries are for unique players.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by precious View Post
    No its about dungeons and according to u ppl it took u thousands of hours to preper for raids, and since dungeons was a big part of gearing for raids i have ppl telling me of how they spended 3-5 hours inside dungeons to clear them cause of high difficulty. It wasnt the shit class balance or no toolkit or the shitty internet or the clueless ppl. It was pure high difficulty of dungeons.
    I remember spending several hours in some dungeons, because our group had some real problems with some parts of the dungeon and bosses. Yes, our gear sucked, yes, we were young and unexperienced, mechanics were not that hard, we were just bad. But thing is, being bad is enough for todays wow while it makes your run difficult in vanilla. You can be eating with one hand, jerking with other, watching TV show, smashing your head over keyboard and you can still go through dungeons now. Does it mean that Vanilla dungeons were some super hard? Of course not, you just had to have at least slight idea what you should be doing and gear properly, however it was still harder compared to current dungeons.

    Will these dungeons be hard for current generation of players? Well, for us, who played wow for like 15 years, of course not but it wont be completely braindead (few days ago I watched guys wiping in wailing caverns for god sake )..and for a completely new players? Yes, I believe Classic dungeons could take some people by surprise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by precious View Post
    So all those 3.7 mil players that did that slider difficulty in m+ and the 500k plus that did hc and mythic BOD last week according to raider io and warcrtaft logs, did not enjoy the multiple difficulties but went and do it cause they had a gun pointed to their head. And since classic raiding is more fun for ppl and the only source of that is PS servers since classic isnt out yet, we come to the conclusion that over 500k million ppl do classic raiding on PS since its more popular than retail. Lets add another 3-4 million that dont raid and we have aproxx 4 million ppl playing classic worldwide on PS servers.

    And before u say anything about the above numbers all the entries are for unique players.
    So what about all people, who already left wow? Does these count?

  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Of course not, I don't want bore myself to dead.

    Did you cleared Naxx in Vanilla?

    - - - Updated - - -


    Some people have really hard times to understand people are not talking about raids here.
    You might want to ease back. I’m worried you are going to tear something with all that stretching.
    Classic WoW, much like any rpg, is tedious but not hard. Retail leveling, much like Classic, is tedious but not hard. Retail has an inflation factor, but much like people like to say with Classic “if you pull too much you will die.” Same holds true for retail as it does for Classic. Whether you can pull 5-6 mobs on retail vs 1-2 on Classic doesn’t change that the extra mob that suddenly gets pulled isn’t going to kill you.
    RPGs in general are not hard when it comes to leveling. I know, I’ve played since the old school NES days of RPGs with Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior, where leveling started by walking LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT in front of town to start an encounter. After gaining a level or 2 you expanded to a 4x4 or even a *hurray!* 8x8 grid to find encounters. This wasn’t hard, this was tedious tactical leveling so you don’t die.
    RPGs don’t start becoming hard until you start adding action to them. Yeah, I get that “oh my god 1 mob hits hard in Classic I’m so gonna die if I get 2, bro!” That’s why you pull within your means. You pull 1, kill it, spend time getting health and mana back, then do it again. That’s not hard. That’s tedious. Doing the same thing over and over.
    Every time someone uses the excuse “you can’t pull more than 1-2” I don’t think “oh wow that’s difficulty right there.” I think “you’re doing your 4x4 grid.”
    As far as dungeons? Of course they are fucking easier than people remember. Bosses have what, 1-2 mechanics, if that? There’s enemy groups in current WoW that have more mechanics than that before you even get to the boss. Back in Vanilla people were new. They didn’t have as many mods to assist, let alone ones that were so in depth as they are now. Guides were nonexistent. Naïveté gave the illusion that content was hard, enlightenment shows that it’s not anywhere near that complex.
    No one is saying you should let that stop you from enjoying Classic. Many people are saying maybe you shouldn’t look like an idiot trying to defend your point with false facts.

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    You might want to ease back. I’m worried you are going to tear something with all that stretching.
    Buddy, maybe pay more attention next time. I never said Classic WoW is hard. I am just saying current WoW is not hard either. Anything is trivial if you know what you should be doing. Dark souls is trivial, if you know, how to avoid attacks and learn patterns. We all got it. So take your smart talk somewhere else

  10. #630
    after playing on the beta i would say that they are about the same as Pservers TBH tanking as a warrior is hard but you get used to it haha

  11. #631
    I did SM Library on the Beta earlier and it was quite challenging. Mobs were between 3-6 Levels higher than us, so that made it kinda challenging.

  12. #632
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    I'm sure you pulled 3 packs at a time and just aoed them down, while noone took any damage and healer had full mana constantly.
    Pulling one-by-one and killing stuff ST while your healer sits at 10% mana is not definition of "hard", it's just players being crap. If your dungeon tank knows what he is doing to at least some degree (like spreading sunders instead of stacking it to 5 on one target) all dungeons are quite easy
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  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Pulling one-by-one and killing stuff ST while your healer sits at 10% mana is not definition of "hard", it's just players being crap. If your dungeon tank knows what he is doing to at least some degree (like spreading sunders instead of stacking it to 5 on one target) all dungeons are quite easy
    So here is the question.. What is hard? Does hard game actually exists? Because you could apply this logic everywhere "If you know what you are doing, it's easy"

  14. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowClassic View Post
    No one cares about artificial difficulty Mythic+ where you have to mad rush everything because of preset timers and where finding a group as a DPS is like finding water in the desert. All my experiences of Mythic plus (I've done up to +10) have just been AoE rush fests where no one speaks unless something goes wrong, not enjoyable at all and there is never a moment to take a breather.

    And in any case this is not a good excuse for all other content in the world being braindead easy.
    "No one cares about artificial difficulty"

    Being oom in 3 casts and finishing a mob off with 2 hits with my 3sec swing time staff is compelling and difficult content
    Speciation Is Gradual

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Being oom in 3 casts
    Looks like someone never played vanilla yet continues to shitpost about how bad it is.



    Back to the retail forums, seething BFA kiddie.

  16. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Looks like someone never played vanilla yet continues to shitpost about how bad it is.



    Back to the retail forums, seething BFA kiddie.
    I've been playing since 1.7 boyo
    Speciation Is Gradual

  17. #637
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    So here is the question.. What is hard? Does hard game actually exists? Because you could apply this logic everywhere "If you know what you are doing, it's easy"
    the "hard" game is either when you don't know yet what you have to do (aka, learning curve), or it's hard to execute what you have to do (aka, difficulty). Vanilla wow never had steep learning curve (besides tanking), and execution part was also quite easy. The only difficult part of vanilla was lack of information (like lack of cast bars to time your interrupt while interrupts sit on GCD), and stuff that you had to learn via trial and error now widely available on the internet (and most of these skills were acquired when you played different versions of WoW or in different games).

    There are games that will fuck you over even if you 100% know what you have to do (example one: doing a dodge on your wardancer and rolling 1 two times; example two: your only chance to stop enemy from landing a touchdown is to throw a halfling on top of his ball carrier, it's 100% legit and calculated move, you still have to roll a lot of dice to make this happen). WoW is not this kind of a game, so when you 100% know what you are doing you'll always "win", and since there is not much to "do" and "know" at all, "losing" is quite "hard" (aka, handwaving your knowledge and doing risky shit). Adding more players into calculation makes things worse. , but not to unmanageable degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
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  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    What do you guys think about this?

    I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

    I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?
    Dude i played a lot of vanilla as a "melee mage" stacking spirit and agi for some stupid reason. Dungeons were so fucking easy even i could complete all of them.

  19. #639
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    "Classic dungeons were never hard, people were just undergeared, inexperienced, bad at the game, bad connection, bad everything"
    I suppose the only difference then is that these players would still obliterate every dungeon up to maxlevel on Retail/Live, while they are going to wipe a lot in Classic dungeons.

    Because Classic dungeons weren't designed to be cleared in 15-20 minutes by people who refuse to communicate.

    Things you'll also see in Classic dungeons:
    Tank getting crushed if he pulls another elite pack
    Healer going OOM because healing spells are freaking expensive,
    Severe lack of CC/AoE
    Many accidental pulls because of a much higher aggro-range (oh and remember patrols?)

    It's not like people claim classic dungeons are essentially high m+ that requires perfect play, but mistakes and overconfidence are very often punished in Classic dungeons. You'll probably wipe as many times in your first 1-2 runs of DM than you've ever wiped in any dungeon while leveling 1-110.

    People seem to enjoy pretending that when people lack infinite mana regen, and several different things in their toolkit (until a later/higher level anyway) then that somehow doesn't contribute to overall difficulty. In the mind of the "there's no difference in difficulty" poster, there is no other measure of difficulty other than execution. And then they are "right", classic dungeon trash and bosses are mechanically simple. That won't change the fact that your healer is going to go OOM if there's an accidental pull of hard-hitting elites.

    On live you don't even need a healer.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2019-05-26 at 05:21 PM.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
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    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  20. #640
    This has probably already been said but:

    Beta goes to level 30, i don't think the game was supposed to be hard at that level.
    But then again, Classic was never hard. It's challenging.

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