Dungeons have never been hard. They've always been a stepping stone into raids. This game has never and will never be about skill or difficulty. It's gear a grind. It's a mobile game without the microtransactions.
this is being ignored in this thread, despite being the central complaint. It is further interesting that almost universally the complaint is that while outdoor leveling feels tuned right, instances don't.
The expectation is that no matter how
a) good players have gotten
b) easy the content always was
c) blizzard has an alleged 1.12 ref client (ref: demo health mana regen)
a tank running into the middle of a bunch of elites should be taking damage and needing heals pretty fast. it often isn't happening. a-c cannnot explain this. A pull should generate a certain range of net dps to players, period, even if done perfectly. Not using cc should increase this damage.
Either damage is lower, or swing timers/internal caster cooldowns have been increased while keeping integer damage per swing static.
the swing timer idea is interesting because it would keep combat log numbers in line with authentic vintage videos while substantially nerfing damage, and would require substantially more work to detect. I do not know that this is the case - I am only thinking through what could cause the widespread perception that net elite damage per pull is too low.
I think it is noteworthy that 2.0-2.2 videos should be good information on mob damage as well - old world was almost completely left alone until 2.3.
I will also suggest comparing 2.3-2.4 videos, and then comparing 3.x videos (at some point there were additional dungeon nerfs in 3.xx I think).
Last edited by Deficineiron; 2019-05-26 at 02:35 PM.
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It doesnt matter. Players do not enjoy difficulty sliders but they do enjoy classic raiding. No matter if this is easy or that is harder. Retail raiding is not fun to do and yes part of what makes raiding in retail boring is presence of difficulty levels. Classic raids and dungeons are far more fun and rewarding experience than anything at retail at the moment. You can praise mythic dungeons and mythic raiding as you want. For majority of players game have no iniciative to do them. It is boring farm to get better gear what is inalidated and completly reseted next wow season.
Last edited by Elias01; 2019-05-26 at 02:30 PM.
No its about dungeons and according to u ppl it took u thousands of hours to preper for raids, and since dungeons was a big part of gearing for raids i have ppl telling me of how they spended 3-5 hours inside dungeons to clear them cause of high difficulty. It wasnt the shit class balance or no toolkit or the shitty internet or the clueless ppl. It was pure high difficulty of dungeons.
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So all those 3.7 mil players that did that slider difficulty in m+ and the 500k plus that did hc and mythic BOD last week according to raider io and warcrtaft logs, did not enjoy the multiple difficulties but went and do it cause they had a gun pointed to their head. And since classic raiding is more fun for ppl and the only source of that is PS servers since classic isnt out yet, we come to the conclusion that over 500k ppl do classic raiding on PS since its more popular than retail. Lets add another 3-4 million that dont raid and we have aproxx 4 million ppl playing classic worldwide on PS servers.
And before u say anything about the above numbers all the entries are for unique players.
I remember spending several hours in some dungeons, because our group had some real problems with some parts of the dungeon and bosses. Yes, our gear sucked, yes, we were young and unexperienced, mechanics were not that hard, we were just bad. But thing is, being bad is enough for todays wow while it makes your run difficult in vanilla. You can be eating with one hand, jerking with other, watching TV show, smashing your head over keyboard and you can still go through dungeons now. Does it mean that Vanilla dungeons were some super hard? Of course not, you just had to have at least slight idea what you should be doing and gear properly, however it was still harder compared to current dungeons.
Will these dungeons be hard for current generation of players? Well, for us, who played wow for like 15 years, of course not but it wont be completely braindead (few days ago I watched guys wiping in wailing caverns for god sake )..and for a completely new players? Yes, I believe Classic dungeons could take some people by surprise.
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So what about all people, who already left wow? Does these count?
You might want to ease back. I’m worried you are going to tear something with all that stretching.
Classic WoW, much like any rpg, is tedious but not hard. Retail leveling, much like Classic, is tedious but not hard. Retail has an inflation factor, but much like people like to say with Classic “if you pull too much you will die.” Same holds true for retail as it does for Classic. Whether you can pull 5-6 mobs on retail vs 1-2 on Classic doesn’t change that the extra mob that suddenly gets pulled isn’t going to kill you.
RPGs in general are not hard when it comes to leveling. I know, I’ve played since the old school NES days of RPGs with Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior, where leveling started by walking LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT in front of town to start an encounter. After gaining a level or 2 you expanded to a 4x4 or even a *hurray!* 8x8 grid to find encounters. This wasn’t hard, this was tedious tactical leveling so you don’t die.
RPGs don’t start becoming hard until you start adding action to them. Yeah, I get that “oh my god 1 mob hits hard in Classic I’m so gonna die if I get 2, bro!” That’s why you pull within your means. You pull 1, kill it, spend time getting health and mana back, then do it again. That’s not hard. That’s tedious. Doing the same thing over and over.
Every time someone uses the excuse “you can’t pull more than 1-2” I don’t think “oh wow that’s difficulty right there.” I think “you’re doing your 4x4 grid.”
As far as dungeons? Of course they are fucking easier than people remember. Bosses have what, 1-2 mechanics, if that? There’s enemy groups in current WoW that have more mechanics than that before you even get to the boss. Back in Vanilla people were new. They didn’t have as many mods to assist, let alone ones that were so in depth as they are now. Guides were nonexistent. Naïveté gave the illusion that content was hard, enlightenment shows that it’s not anywhere near that complex.
No one is saying you should let that stop you from enjoying Classic. Many people are saying maybe you shouldn’t look like an idiot trying to defend your point with false facts.
Buddy, maybe pay more attention next time. I never said Classic WoW is hard. I am just saying current WoW is not hard either. Anything is trivial if you know what you should be doing. Dark souls is trivial, if you know, how to avoid attacks and learn patterns. We all got it. So take your smart talk somewhere else
after playing on the beta i would say that they are about the same as Pservers TBH tanking as a warrior is hard but you get used to it haha
I did SM Library on the Beta earlier and it was quite challenging. Mobs were between 3-6 Levels higher than us, so that made it kinda challenging.
Pulling one-by-one and killing stuff ST while your healer sits at 10% mana is not definition of "hard", it's just players being crap. If your dungeon tank knows what he is doing to at least some degree (like spreading sunders instead of stacking it to 5 on one target) all dungeons are quite easy
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
the "hard" game is either when you don't know yet what you have to do (aka, learning curve), or it's hard to execute what you have to do (aka, difficulty). Vanilla wow never had steep learning curve (besides tanking), and execution part was also quite easy. The only difficult part of vanilla was lack of information (like lack of cast bars to time your interrupt while interrupts sit on GCD), and stuff that you had to learn via trial and error now widely available on the internet (and most of these skills were acquired when you played different versions of WoW or in different games).
There are games that will fuck you over even if you 100% know what you have to do (example one: doing a dodge on your wardancer and rolling 1 two times; example two: your only chance to stop enemy from landing a touchdown is to throw a halfling on top of his ball carrier, it's 100% legit and calculated move, you still have to roll a lot of dice to make this happen). WoW is not this kind of a game, so when you 100% know what you are doing you'll always "win", and since there is not much to "do" and "know" at all, "losing" is quite "hard" (aka, handwaving your knowledge and doing risky shit). Adding more players into calculation makes things worse. , but not to unmanageable degree.
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
"Classic dungeons were never hard, people were just undergeared, inexperienced, bad at the game, bad connection, bad everything"
I suppose the only difference then is that these players would still obliterate every dungeon up to maxlevel on Retail/Live, while they are going to wipe a lot in Classic dungeons.
Because Classic dungeons weren't designed to be cleared in 15-20 minutes by people who refuse to communicate.
Things you'll also see in Classic dungeons:
Tank getting crushed if he pulls another elite pack
Healer going OOM because healing spells are freaking expensive,
Severe lack of CC/AoE
Many accidental pulls because of a much higher aggro-range (oh and remember patrols?)
It's not like people claim classic dungeons are essentially high m+ that requires perfect play, but mistakes and overconfidence are very often punished in Classic dungeons. You'll probably wipe as many times in your first 1-2 runs of DM than you've ever wiped in any dungeon while leveling 1-110.
People seem to enjoy pretending that when people lack infinite mana regen, and several different things in their toolkit (until a later/higher level anyway) then that somehow doesn't contribute to overall difficulty. In the mind of the "there's no difference in difficulty" poster, there is no other measure of difficulty other than execution. And then they are "right", classic dungeon trash and bosses are mechanically simple. That won't change the fact that your healer is going to go OOM if there's an accidental pull of hard-hitting elites.
On live you don't even need a healer.
Last edited by MasterHamster; 2019-05-26 at 05:21 PM.
Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
Occasional WoW Classic Andy since.
Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.
This has probably already been said but:
Beta goes to level 30, i don't think the game was supposed to be hard at that level.
But then again, Classic was never hard. It's challenging.