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  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrillGates View Post
    This has probably already been said but:

    Beta goes to level 30, i don't think the game was supposed to be hard at that level.
    But then again, Classic was never hard. It's challenging.
    Weren't people claiming that levelling was a major part of the vanilla game? So what, those 30 levels don't count all of a sudden? Surely that incredible challenge that should have devoured 'retailers' whole must have already been present by then.

  2. #642
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrillGates View Post
    This has probably already been said but:

    Beta goes to level 30, i don't think the game was supposed to be hard at that level.
    But then again, Classic was never hard. It's challenging.
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Weren't people claiming that levelling was a major part of the vanilla game? So what, those 30 levels don't count all of a sudden? Surely that incredible challenge that should have devoured 'retailers' whole must have already been present by then.
    Vanilla wasn't difficult but it is very true that the early levels are especially easy.

    Levelling starts to get "harder" later on, but there are also a couple of brackets in particular that are a pain because of quest distribution and stuff like that.
    The brackets I remember as being annoying were 34-40, 44-48, 50-56. The main reasons for this are quest and xp distribution which push you around the world far too much (because they often wouldn't give enough xp to level and unlock other quests in the zone), and the general state of some of the dungeons which could be a bit meh and have level brackets which can mean you just aren't going to clear them in one run (because you would hit walls due to entry requirement being too low while the end stuff could be much higher level than they should be).
    Speciation Is Gradual

  3. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Weren't people claiming that levelling was a major part of the vanilla game? So what, those 30 levels don't count all of a sudden? Surely that incredible challenge that should have devoured 'retailers' whole must have already been present by then.
    There is no "wall" that you meet during leveling that stops you from progressing, you always progress regardless of what you do. You won't die and get rolled back to beginning of your level, you won't fail a quest and will have to do it all over (outside of... like... 5 escort and timed quests). Leveling is hardly a challenge. It's still enjoyable, because it has proper pacing compared to retail, where game expanded so much that it basically invalidates all low-level content. Don't forget that vanilla was designed to be wanted by players who didn't like old MMORPG (more solo content, less punishment for failures, more rewards), there is literally no challenge that should've devoured anyone.

    On a second thought, the only thing that could "devour" anyone is simple boredom since you may feel like you are wasting your time with it, which is the case with literally any other game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    The main reasons for this are quest and xp distribution which push you around the world far too much (because they often wouldn't give enough xp to level and unlock other quests in the zone), and the general state of some of the dungeons which could be a bit meh and have level brackets which can mean you just aren't going to clear them in one run (because you would hit walls due to entry requirement being too low while the end stuff could be much higher level than they should be).
    Fun thing i've noticed in packed starting locations during stress test: LOTS of players just sit around and camp quest mobs instead of murderhoboing everything in sight. That pesky gnome warlock who started yelling at me for me not wanting to join his group ended up like 2 levels behind me when i've met him on my way out from starting location to kharanos.
    It really feels like 180 from vanilla, where most people who came from different MMOs mostly grinded mobs while doing quests, now people do quests avoiding killing "excess" mobs because it's "not efficient" and because they "don't need these mobs for quests".
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2019-05-26 at 06:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  4. #644
    My memory of Vanilla dungeons wasn't difficulty but just.... inexperienced design teams (which isn't surprising given the big MMO before then had been everquest). Dungeons tended to... ramble. Original Sunken Temple was a labyrinth. And not in a good way. It was just.... confusing. The later ones (Undercity etc) were HUGE and a lot of the time you'd have the group give up before the end because someone finally called it quits and left to go to dinner or bed because they had work the next morning.

    The actual mobs/bosses were pretty basic... there were just a lot of them.

    I'd probably say there were a few moments in wow history when dungeons felt really harsh. Late BC (heroic hellfire with those mob packed tunnels), Early heroic wrath (still great tho) and early Cata dungeons which were trying to encourage people to CC again (and a new breed of player was ignoring the devs on this one ^^).

    Oh and +15 mythics atm.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    Dude i played a lot of vanilla as a "melee mage" stacking spirit and agi for some stupid reason. Dungeons were so fucking easy even i could complete all of them.
    Yet they are still harder than dungeons on retail so we are good.

  6. #646
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Even with limited tool kits, a lot of people understand core concepts better now than they did then.

    LoS 15 years ago? Forget about it.
    Kiting 15 years ago? Forget about it.
    Interrupts and stuns? Well, that's still kinda mixed even after 15 years, lol.

    All of the Vanilla dungeons are pretty easy if you don't over pull and either kite or use LoS to your advantage if you find yourself in a terrible spot. When these things happened when I played, people just fell over like flies and panic ensued.
    Ahhahhahah. No.

    You all act like LoS etc is some advanced technique that takes some genius to understand or months to master. It's not. Nor are all of you better than people 15 years ago. That's just self-stroking bullshit - people aren't smarter or faster or better today than then, you just want to think you are.

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Yet they are still harder than dungeons on retail so we are good.
    Only because retail doesn't allow you to equip gear without your main stats.

    But classic was still easier. A bunch of blundering idiots still made it through.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Ahhahhahah. No.

    You all act like LoS etc is some advanced technique that takes some genius to understand or months to master. It's not. Nor are all of you better than people 15 years ago. That's just self-stroking bullshit - people aren't smarter or faster or better today than then, you just want to think you are.
    People today aren't smarter than people 200 years ago, we just have calculators to do extremely advanced math for us, encyclopedias, better nourishment during our formative years and a literal decade of intensive schooling unheard of 200 years ago, even by the elite of society.

    People today aren't smarter, they just want to think they are.

  8. #648
    Warchief taishar68's Avatar
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    So much to comment on, I know I won't remember everything, but here are a few key points I wanted to discuss:

    What is the understood meaning of hard? Because if vanilla dungeons weren't harder than today's heroics, then today's heroics must be on a different level of easy than...breathing. Since Cata, I cannot recall more than a handful of normal or heroic dungeons that did not AoE almost all trash, or had boss mechanics so difficult as to cause multiple wipes...and I'm saying this as someone who went into said dungeons knowing basically nothing about the fights themselves. I stopped worrying about dungeon mechanics ages ago.

    Now, if the litmus test of difficulty is today's mythics..well, I can't speak to them having not done any past M0, but I will assume they are as difficult as advertised. Mythic 0 is no different than heroic in terms of execution; tank pulls, we AoE, kill boss while not standing in anything.

    Getting back to vanilla dungeons, I have always remembered them as a part of the game that required some care, and that dungeons since LK (with a few exceptions), you could be a lot more careless. How that will be in practice, we'll have to wait and see.

    What I am going to use as a way to gauge the difficulty? Jintha'alor. Hard outdoor area with tons of elites, lots of patrols. If I go there with a couple of other players and we faceroll it, assuming we all have mostly green gear with some blues, it will feel off. Jintha took a while to do, care was needed when pulling, and without a healer, a death or three is not uncommon. This is how I will gauge because I have a strong memory of it. ymmv.

    The argument of people wearing the wrong gear (rogues with int., etc.), only goes so far; by the time I started doing Zul Farrak, you rarely saw oddball stats like that anymore. It'll be even less so this time around.

    Lastly...you know, everyone plays the game a little differently. If you base everything around speed and efficiency, you forget there is a certain charm in doing a dungeon where, while you might wipe a time or two, you have fun as well by hanging out with cool people. And there is nothing wrong with being fast and efficient, and if you are that type of player, you have a different memory and outlook than others, because we all see things differently.
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
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  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    So much to comment on, I know I won't remember everything, but here are a few key points I wanted to discuss:

    What is the understood meaning of hard? Because if vanilla dungeons weren't harder than today's heroics, then today's heroics must be on a different level of easy than...breathing. Since Cata, I cannot recall more than a handful of normal or heroic dungeons that did not AoE almost all trash, or had boss mechanics so difficult as to cause multiple wipes...and I'm saying this as someone who went into said dungeons knowing basically nothing about the fights themselves. I stopped worrying about dungeon mechanics ages ago.

    Now, if the litmus test of difficulty is today's mythics..well, I can't speak to them having not done any past M0, but I will assume they are as difficult as advertised. Mythic 0 is no different than heroic in terms of execution; tank pulls, we AoE, kill boss while not standing in anything.

    Getting back to vanilla dungeons, I have always remembered them as a part of the game that required some care, and that dungeons since LK (with a few exceptions), you could be a lot more careless. How that will be in practice, we'll have to wait and see.

    What I am going to use as a way to gauge the difficulty? Jintha'alor. Hard outdoor area with tons of elites, lots of patrols. If I go there with a couple of other players and we faceroll it, assuming we all have mostly green gear with some blues, it will feel off. Jintha took a while to do, care was needed when pulling, and without a healer, a death or three is not uncommon. This is how I will gauge because I have a strong memory of it. ymmv.

    The argument of people wearing the wrong gear (rogues with int., etc.), only goes so far; by the time I started doing Zul Farrak, you rarely saw oddball stats like that anymore. It'll be even less so this time around.

    Lastly...you know, everyone plays the game a little differently. If you base everything around speed and efficiency, you forget there is a certain charm in doing a dungeon where, while you might wipe a time or two, you have fun as well by hanging out with cool people. And there is nothing wrong with being fast and efficient, and if you are that type of player, you have a different memory and outlook than others, because we all see things differently.
    Holy shit, my IQ just raised by 10 points just by reading this. Thank you for your healthy post. I am serious.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Weren't people claiming that levelling was a major part of the vanilla game? So what, those 30 levels don't count all of a sudden? Surely that incredible challenge that should have devoured 'retailers' whole must have already been present by then.
    You're trying too hard.

  11. #651
    Stood in the Fire Guardian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armadildo View Post
    People try low level dungeons. OH MY GERD ITS EASY.
    Good luck in stratholme.
    BfA fans went through Deadmines and think that's the hardest dungeon in Classic. Wait until they get to Stratholme and the group dies continuously to eventually rage quit because of repair bill. They have no idea what WoW was like.


  12. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrillGates View Post
    You're trying too hard.
    That's funny considering this thread's name. Or constant reddit posts which were trying to prove that dungeons are "too easy" because elite mobs were somehow bugged and not doing enough damage. Which then turned into "oh, it's just low level, things are *totally* different later on"... despite previously claiming that even levelling is incredibly challenging at all times.

    Me? I'm just mildly amused. My levelling as a vanilla Holy Priest consisted of Renew, auto-wand and alt-tab. Slow, not exactly challenging, but I didn't really care. I three manned some dungeons, did others normally, wiped at times, didn't wipe at others. I barely remember any of the bosses, since most of them had no abilities worth mentioning. Wipes mostly came from pulling a patrol, which can easily happen in modern M+. That, or some instances having 10+ level spread (with Uldaman being a prime example) where you had to outlevel 70% of the place in order for the last part to not have "boss level" enemies.

    I'm pretty sure raiding will be the same. Molten Core isn't a realy raid, just wait until BWL. I mean AQ40. I mean Naxx... well that's totally because they must have broken something, like Taunt hit chance or Frost resistance being too powerful.

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Pulling one-by-one and killing stuff ST while your healer sits at 10% mana is not definition of "hard", it's just players being crap. If your dungeon tank knows what he is doing to at least some degree (like spreading sunders instead of stacking it to 5 on one target) all dungeons are quite easy
    By that logic, Dark Souls is dirt easy. You can repeat the fights to learn the enemy moves and all you need to be good at is to dodge.

    Classic isn't hard in vacuum, it was a pretty easy game when it came out. But doing the same things in retail now is just miles easier. Can you really say with a straight face that Sunken Temple in retail are hard as or harder than it's iteration in classic?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Weren't people claiming that levelling was a major part of the vanilla game? So what, those 30 levels don't count all of a sudden? Surely that incredible challenge that should have devoured 'retailers' whole must have already been present by then.
    A guy from Method died 54 times 1-30. Many other had big struggles but this one sticks out


  14. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    A guy from Method died 54 times 1-30. Many other had big struggles but this one sticks out
    "A guy from Method" doesn't even have food on his character. Sit down at 20% hitpoints and get killed by respawn, even though you could have easily healed by eating anything? Even a bandage would work. I mean, what is this supposed to prove?

  15. #655
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    "A guy from Method" doesn't even have food on his character. Sit down at 20% hitpoints and get killed by respawn, even though you could have easily healed by eating anything? Even a bandage would work. I mean, what is this supposed to prove?
    I think he's trying to say that because he is in method it means he mustn't be an idiot. He has zero area awareness and is running into buildings like a moron.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    "A guy from Method" doesn't even have food on his character. Sit down at 20% hitpoints and get killed by respawn, even though you could have easily healed by eating anything? Even a bandage would work. I mean, what is this supposed to prove?
    i can tell you never spent all your money on training and literally couldn't afford food. if you think mages are gonna be happy to throw food your way outside of dungeons you're also insane, it's a full time job being a vending machine, i mean, mage

    that's the point though, you have to prepare to quest, you don't have to prepare to quest now, fuck, you don't even need both hands and gear in all slots, there is no threat of dying and mobs didn't always respawn reliably

    classic wow was harder even if you define difficulty in some stupid ass off the wall way

  17. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    I think he's trying to say that because he is in method it means he mustn't be an idiot. He has zero area awareness and is running into buildings like a moron.
    Which means he's probably hamming it up for the viewers and doesn't really mind. I'm pretty sure he could have handled this a lot better if he cared, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as exciting - especially for the "#1 Guild in the world cannot handle Classic, suck on this, retailers!!!" crowd.
    Quote Originally Posted by sopeonaroap View Post
    i can tell you never spent all your money on training and literally couldn't afford food. if you think mages are gonna be happy to throw food your way outside of dungeons you're also insane, it's a full time job being a vending machine, i mean, mage
    I'm sure he also didn't get any cloth drops from all these humanoid mobs, either. Or random food. Or greys to sell. Yep, can't afford anything, totally helpless, nothing he could have done.

    I mean, sure, it is harder than retail. But "Method player died 50 times!!!" means little when guy plays roughly the same as average nobody - hell, probably worse so it's more interesting for his viewers.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2019-05-26 at 10:14 PM.

  18. #658
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    If the difficulty check is "are you or are you not an idiot?" then it isn't much of a check.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    So much to comment on, I know I won't remember everything, but here are a few key points I wanted to discuss:

    What is the understood meaning of hard? Because if vanilla dungeons weren't harder than today's heroics, then today's heroics must be on a different level of easy than...breathing. Since Cata, I cannot recall more than a handful of normal or heroic dungeons that did not AoE almost all trash, or had boss mechanics so difficult as to cause multiple wipes...and I'm saying this as someone who went into said dungeons knowing basically nothing about the fights themselves. I stopped worrying about dungeon mechanics ages ago.

    Now, if the litmus test of difficulty is today's mythics..well, I can't speak to them having not done any past M0, but I will assume they are as difficult as advertised. Mythic 0 is no different than heroic in terms of execution; tank pulls, we AoE, kill boss while not standing in anything.

    Getting back to vanilla dungeons, I have always remembered them as a part of the game that required some care, and that dungeons since LK (with a few exceptions), you could be a lot more careless. How that will be in practice, we'll have to wait and see.

    What I am going to use as a way to gauge the difficulty? Jintha'alor. Hard outdoor area with tons of elites, lots of patrols. If I go there with a couple of other players and we faceroll it, assuming we all have mostly green gear with some blues, it will feel off. Jintha took a while to do, care was needed when pulling, and without a healer, a death or three is not uncommon. This is how I will gauge because I have a strong memory of it. ymmv.

    The argument of people wearing the wrong gear (rogues with int., etc.), only goes so far; by the time I started doing Zul Farrak, you rarely saw oddball stats like that anymore. It'll be even less so this time around.

    Lastly...you know, everyone plays the game a little differently. If you base everything around speed and efficiency, you forget there is a certain charm in doing a dungeon where, while you might wipe a time or two, you have fun as well by hanging out with cool people. And there is nothing wrong with being fast and efficient, and if you are that type of player, you have a different memory and outlook than others, because we all see things differently.
    This is a great post. The retailers judging the difficulty of Classic by level 30 dungeons are just idiotic. I've seen some comparing Deadmines to Mythic +15.

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    "A guy from Method" doesn't even have food on his character. Sit down at 20% hitpoints and get killed by respawn, even though you could have easily healed by eating anything? Even a bandage would work. I mean, what is this supposed to prove?
    Two things; either it's not as easy as it seems or Method has some really bad apples in their roster.

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