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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    I'll be awaiting your apology.
    Let's just remember what you said:

    It's interesting that you're claiming that the West(TM) solved slavery and lynching when the US has a larger percentage of the population locked up than the Gulag Archipelago, and police are murdering black people at a rate higher than the peak of Jim Crow-era lynchings.
    What was your original point? Lynchings even in Jim Crow (0.002%), and police deaths currently (6.7*e-4), are just a non-issue. The numbers have actually gone DOWN in per capita, so it's interesting you just avoid giving that stat. Your paragraph on the archipelago is equally pointless when discussing actual slavery. I guess your point really could've been just "it's interesting that the west ended slavery and lynching", but I thought there was more to it than laziness.
    Last edited by Raybourne; 2019-05-22 at 02:09 AM.

  2. #242
    I can say as a white privilaged CIS male, that I feel no guilt for anything that happened in the past. But then I am also only a 2nd generation American. My grandparents immigrated here from Poland, Germany, Italy, and Canada in the 1900's as toddlers. So none of that was my ancestors doing. My family lineage has nothing but persecuted peoples even enslaved peoples. That may be part of it too.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    A single study saying there are some racist liberals is what you're using to say that democrats are more racist than republicans?

    In the link I posted 24% of democrats said blacks are just lazier than whites while 42% of republicans do.

    No one said there are no racist democrats you're sitting here claiming that Democrats are more racist than republicans you've literally not proven shit.
    The study provides evidence that liberals exercise the racism of low expectations - not that they are overtly hateful or propose racist policies. It's not, IMO, a case of "see both sides are racist", it's more a case of "their racism takes different forms".

  4. #244
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    I rather someone recognize that I need help than to view me as undeserving of any.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Way to misinterpret and twist facts with a straight face. You're attempting to oversimply complex systemic issue.
    What's your take on it? I'm not sure on the poverty increase claim, but single parenthood has indeed gone up since that epoch. There are enough stats to provide support for the idea that single parenthood is correlated with higher levels of crime, poverty, and lower levels of education (Obama spoke on this in 2008). The original argument (from my interpretation) seems more of a counter-argument to the notion that Jim Crow laws and the like were critical if not pivotal in driving black poverty, crime, and lack of education. The counter-point would then be that these fundamental factors of well-being have in fact worsened. What are the strongest explanations for this phenomenon? What has happened that's in fact so strong of a factor in driving black empoverishment that overcomes institutional racism of old? We could list a whole host of factors, but would they be as influential as single parenthood?

  6. #246
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Ok. I googled it and found this.

    It is funny how republicans by and large view "seeing racism where they perceive it doesn't exist" as the larger issue than seeing racism when it happens... like wtf is that? That shows just how twisted the party is.

  7. #247
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    What's your take on it? I'm not sure on the poverty increase claim, but single parenthood has indeed gone up since that epoch. There are enough stats to provide support for the idea that single parenthood is correlated with higher levels of crime, poverty, and lower levels of education (Obama spoke on this in 2008). The original argument (from my interpretation) seems more of a counter-argument to the notion that Jim Crow laws and the like were critical if not pivotal in driving black poverty, crime, and lack of education. The counter-point would then be that these fundamental factors of well-being have in fact worsened. What are the strongest explanations for this phenomenon? What has happened that's in fact so strong of a factor in driving black impoverishment that overcomes institutional racism of old? We could list a whole host of factors, but would they be as influential as single parenthood?
    Single parenthood is just a part of a series of socioeconomic hurdles that have impacted minorities in the US. One that's not independent of factors that proceed it. This forum isn't the place nor do I personally have the energy to jump into the nuances of 'race and poverty in the US' right now. Nothing that a couple of rushed paragraphs would do justice towards.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Way to misinterpret and twist facts with a straight face. You're attempting to oversimply complex systemic issue.
    Im not educated on american history, i dont even know who jim crow is. But is it false? There is alot of single black women with kids and that seem to be the big problem of american black crimes.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Single parenthood is just a part of a series of socioeconomic hurdles that have impacted minorities in the US. One that's not independent of factors that proceed it. This forum isn't the place nor do I personally have the energy to jump into the nuances of 'race and poverty in the US' right now. Nothing that a couple of rushed paragraphs would do justice towards.
    It's one of many different factors, yes, that's what I noted. Are there are any factors that are actually as large as single parenthood to explain the worsening of the conditions of the black american demographic, so much as to overcome the worst of institutional racism?

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Because Western culture is guilty of a lot of horrible stuff in recent history. The best way to learn from and not repeat the series of events that led to those acts to is to not forget them.
    The 5 year plan and the Great Leap forward has killed far more than any "horrible stuff" stuff the west has ever done.

  11. #251
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Im not educated on american history, i dont even know who jim crow is. But is it false? There is alot of single black women with kids and that seem to be the big problem of american black crimes.
    The Jim Crow era was a period in the US that spanned 100 years after the Civil War - where open segregation and discrimination against blacks was not only acceptable but signed off on at very levels of government. It's better if you read up on if interested but it's part of a series of socioeconomic troubles that minorities have faced in the US.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    The Jim Crow era was a period in the US that spanned 100 years after the Civil War - where open segregation and discrimination against blacks was not only acceptable but signed off on at very levels of government. It's better if you read up on if interested but it's part of a series of socioeconomic troubles that minorities have faced in the US.
    It would make me understand racism in america yes, it sounds like we have nothing simular in europe at all. Maybe then i would understand why its offensive in america when pewdiepie say n-word but for us he is just saying im pissed off

  13. #253
    The Patient DevilTrigger1989's Avatar
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    You do not have to feel guilty yourself. Every culture system have similar situations. In some eastern countries, people cannot even criticize the mistake made by governmenty in the past, or your forum/SMS account will be banned for a period of time or permanently according to their so-called "Judgement".

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Are you of the opinion that Jim Crow had no effect at all on the outcome of black Americans today?
    Not no effect, but I would say a very minimal effect.
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  15. #255
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    It's one of many different factors, yes, that's what I noted. Are there are any factors that are actually as large as single parenthood to explain the worsening of the conditions of the black American demographic, so much as to overcome the worst of institutional racism?
    Why do you think single parenthood became a big thing in Black America? Can you think of anything (people, policies, whatever) that could have contributing to an uprise in single-parent homes between the 60s and now?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by breslin View Post
    Not no effect, but I would say a very minimal effect.
    Anyone with a solid grasp on just economics can trace the modern economic climate back to that era...which wasn't even that long ago.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Way to misinterpret and twist facts with a straight face. You're attempting to oversimply complex systemic issue.
    No I'm not, that's what blaming racist laws 60 years ago would be doing. You're just afraid of the truth, which is that single mother family households are the real burden to overcome and that they are rampant relative to the black community.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Why do you think single parenthood became a big thing in Black America? Can you think of anything (people, policies, whatever) that could have contributing to an uprise in single-parent homes between the 60s and now?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Anyone with a solid grasp on just economics can trace the modern economic climate back to that era...which wasn't even that long ago.
    You mean like Thomas Sowell?

    Are lower incomes of blacks the legacy of Jim Crow and slavery?

    Sowell: No. Why would they be? When you break the black population down you find, for example, that the poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits in every year since 1994, despite the high poverty rate among blacks. So not only do they have lower poverty rates than the black population as a whole, in some years they have a lower poverty rate than the white population as a whole. Now, black married couples’ ancestors were not exempt from slavery, segregation, discrimination and the rest of it.

    Hogberg: You might say what is behind the notion that the legacy of slavery holds back blacks is the half-baked theory that the negative impact of historical tragedies on a particular group can last decades or even centuries. Is that supported by the evidence?

    Sowell: No. It’s plausible, but you don’t assume it’s true because you want to believe it. You look at the evidence, and when you look at the evidence many things seem plausible that are not supported by the evidence. Often people who are refugees from various tragedies and are destitute when they arrive in a new country are doing well within a generation or two.

    For example, most Cubans who fled from the Castro regime, when they first arrived in the U.S. found that the credentials they had from Cuba held no weight. So, they might have been doctors or judges or whatever in Cuba, they had to start at the very bottom here. Their wives, women who may have never worked in their lives, had to take jobs as maids and seamstresses and fruit pickers and all kinds of low-level jobs. But after about 40 years, they had risen. And in those 40 years, the amount of wealth accumulated by Cuban Americans was greater than the entire wealth of Cuba. You can see similar experiences with other groups. The Gujaratis who were expelled from East Africa and fled to England usually arrived destitute because they weren’t allowed to take their money with them and so on. But after a number of years they prospered in England. Meanwhile the economy in East Africa collapsed because you didn’t have people with the same human capital that the Gujaratis had.

    One thing that I’d like to mention is the people who talk about redistributing income or wealth don’t seem to understand that a crucial factor in both is human capital. In the long run you may not be able to redistribute human capital because so much of it exists inside human beings’ heads. So, the moral and philosophical issues that academics like John Rawls and so forth talk about become moot. If you can’t redistribute human capital, then it doesn’t matter how desirable it may be to do so.

    Hogberg: You note that blacks were making more progress prior to the 1960s. For example, the poverty rate among blacks dropped much quicker prior to the 1960s than it did after that decade. What changed?

    Sowell: I think what changed was what I call the “welfare state vision” that became popular in that decade. That vision says that if you don’t have something that someone else has, then it is somebody else’s fault and that you are therefore justified in demanding compensation and expecting the world owes you something. It also states that your sins are to be forgiven because you didn’t get the right breaks. That has been a toxic vision on both sides of the Atlantic, and it is as toxic among lower-class whites in Britain as it is among blacks in America. It is amazing the similarities that exist between the lower-class whites in Britain and ghetto blacks in the United States, even right down to the schools where kids who want to learn are beaten up by other kids. So, this vision has been a holdback to both lower class whites in Britain and blacks here. But whites in Britain don’t have any legacy of slavery to fall back on.

    It is important to note that the welfare state makes it possible to live out this vision. It subsidizes a counterproductive lifestyle. By contrast, under ordinary market conditions people would either have to shape up or ship out.

    Hogberg: Your book shows that it’s not racism that holds back black Americans. Given that, why do groups like the NAACP continue to focus on racism?

    Sowell: Because it is to the benefit of the NAACP. One thing I have learned from studying various ethnic groups around the world is that ethnic leaders tend to promote ideas that help ethnic leaders even when those ideas are counterproductive to the groups that they are leading. I think the classic example in the United States is Hispanic leaders who want to maintain so-called bilingual programs in schools. When the decision as to whether a child is taught in English or in Spanish is left in the hands of parents, Hispanic parents tend to want their children to be taught in English so they can get ahead in this society. But if that is allowed to happen, then the so-called leaders are going to lose their constituency. As Hispanics master English they move on up and drift out into the rest of society. It is to the leaders’ advantage to keep those kids in Spanish so that they can’t move out into the rest of the world.

    Hogberg: Is the NAACP holding back blacks in the sense that they encourage blacks to focus on issues that are not crucial to advancement?

    Sowell: Absolutely. And more concretely, the NAACP promotes ideas that are actually counterproductive. For example, the NAACP has come out against charter schools. Charter schools are the biggest educational success for black children in the history of the United States. When the NAACP took that position, to me it was a declaration of moral bankruptcy. They are ready to sell out whole generations of black children for the sake of getting the money from the teachers’ unions. The same goes for the blacks in the Congressional Black Caucus who are also against charter schools. Consider that charter schools don’t usually have their own building. Typically, they are held in buildings that house the regular public school in that neighborhood. In one case I recently saw, children in a charter school scored in the 96th percentile, while the children in the public school, in that same building, scored in the 6th percentile. And to think in light of results like that, the NAACP and the Congressional Black Caucus are going to come out in favor of stopping charter schools—it’s monstrous.

    https://capitalresearch.org/article/...nomist-part-3/
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  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    This is something that always struck me as a bit off but why does guilt seem to play such a large role in the history of the west? From Canada with its Indian schools to Americans with slavery, and Europe with the holocaust.

    Why is it that these issues seem to press so heavily on the mind of so many especially when the grand majority of people alive had nothing to do with them? Looking around the world this sort of culture seems to really only exist in the west what makes it stick around so long?
    You should travel more.

  18. #258
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    It would make me understand racism in america yes, it sounds like we have nothing simular in europe at all. Maybe then i would understand why its offensive in America when pewdiepie say n-word but for us he is just saying I'm pissed off
    That word describes a time period where no matter what you did at anytime laws and society could view you as, "just a nigger" or a second class person. A word often used in conjunction with blatant acts of disrespect that you had to legal/socially take. Imagine headling a show but you still had to enter the building through the loading dock because the main entrance was 'whites only'. You could be the most educated man in the room but every you say dismissed by a, 'shutup nigger.'

    You can't just erase the historical context of the word or the emotions it causes when still used a slur.

    But black people say 'nigga' all the time.

    Not all black people and the word is still considered disrespectful, even crude, in a lot of cases. On the other hand, when used in casual conversation the word has almost no meaning on its own. It's always contextual. The unspoken understanding of the word is why it 'acceptable' for some to say but not others. It might be used in safe since to tell someone, 'fuck you', but never as a slur among people of a similar walk of life. The nuance misses a lot of people. If a video of Eminem dropped 5 min from now, of course, some people will scream foul but he'd more or less get a pass. If there's a recording of Trump saying it is going to be played on every Democratic campaign from now until everyone he is associated with leaves politics. Its all about background and familiarity.

  19. #259
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breslin View Post
    You mean like Thomas Sowell?
    He said people with a solid grasp of economics.

    So no; not people like Thomas Sowell. Supply side economists can suck my dick for all the damage they have done to this country.
    "Buttigieg is a finger trap for every heterosexual where all they have to do is critique his bad policies without making some terrible comment about his sexuality and they keep coming back running with their fingers trapped inside." - Anthony Oliveira

  20. #260
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breslin View Post
    -snip-
    Come on man. Don't quote Sowell as if his opinions aren't often picked apart and his bias against liberal platforms never subtle. Can't say that means anything to you considering you're quoting Captial Research.

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