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  1. #101
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    To be fair, Tenochtitlan was smaller and less developed than Rome or Constantinople at their heights (Rome had more than 250k people by 150 BC and Constantinople had 400k by 500 AD). So you mean it was bigger than any city in Spain at the time, because Europeans had had larger cities in their past. And witch burnings and the like were a rather localized affair, they didn't occur all over Europe. The Aztecs sacrificed 20,000 people in one day during a festival. The Spanish Inquisition killed maybe 2000 over its entire timeline. Both groups had their brutish customs, but it's pretty dumb to paint Europe as entirely a bloody backwater and the Mesoamericans as an enlightened people.

    So I wouldn't be calling out others' ignorance when you show a fair bit of it yourself.

    Beyond that, not taking sides in this rather dumb topic.
    In Europe at the time which would be 16th century or so.

    Tell me at the time this being 16th century the most populated cities in Europe were about 50k, so AT THAT TIME it was the most developed city they'd seen or knew of in current existence, saying "but in the past" doesn't make sense as that's not what it was about. The claim wasn't that they had made the biggest and best ever... it was that they had the worlds largest city which they did at the time when Europeans went over there.

    When said they were enlightened? Did you miss the part of them sacrificing people? You read in and just assumed shit because that what you do because you want something to argue against regardless of whether it is actually part of an argument or not.

  2. #102
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    This is something that always struck me as a bit off but why does guilt seem to play such a large role in the history of the west? From Canada with its Indian schools to Americans with slavery, and Europe with the holocaust.

    Why is it that these issues seem to press so heavily on the mind of so many especially when the grand majority of people alive had nothing to do with them? Looking around the world this sort of culture seems to really only exist in the west what makes it stick around so long?
    You do know Europe is not a country? England didn’t do anything with the holocaust, but fought it. England is in Europe.

  3. #103
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breslin View Post
    I don't see how the holocaust is relevant to anything in American politics today no, and neither is Jim Crow or Japanese internment. Its nonsensical to feel guilt for any of those unless you were one of the bad people responsible for them, and its downright crazy and racist to want to implement policy to "get back at" people who only share the same skin color with bad people from 80 years ago.
    "I don't see how remembering the holocaust is relevant to American politics today where Neo nazi feel emboldened by a president and have been shooting up several synagogues and marching to killing jews. Why is the holocaust relevant?"

    It isn't about feeling guilt it is about remember history... nothing about this is about get back for some reason you seem to think the mere mention of history and remembering it is an attack on you... which is a fucking weird train of thought.

    Jim Crow era essentially shaped the situation black Americans are in today... Most of gen Y are either only 1 or two generations removed from Jim Crow, and being that we know it takes several generations to really break out of an economic standing it is important to remember history since history plays a part in how the world is shaped

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by nymphetsss View Post
    I don't feel guilty about anything, why would I?
    Same here, I have not done anything that causes me any level of guilt.
    and the geek shall inherit the earth

  5. #105
    It isn't. Vocal left wing extremist minorities just screech loudly.

  6. #106
    Over 9000! Tommo's Avatar
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    If you live in a western nation and you travel or work abroad, the privilege you have is honestly astounding. I can genuinely tell you for a fact that I've avoided countless fines and even jail for simply being white, male and having a decent passport.

    And a lot of these countries I get away with doing stupid shit in, are countries that Britain fucked over to some degree (the list of ones we havent are small).

    Its important to recognise the privilege you have and how easy it makes your life compared to others, even the worst off in our societies have a better chance at life than the best in other countries.

    That being said I dont feel intense guilt or anything, and I think its unrealistic to expect other normal citizens to as well. However its good to remember history, show humility and provide reparations where necessary, a developed and safe world is to the benefit of all.

  7. #107
    It's just in the US and it's a minority of people.
    All countries and people did atrocities in the past.
    Take Africans for instance, during the slave trade, many tribes went out and captured people from other tribes to sell them as slaves to the Europeans.

    You can find examples like that for everyone at some point or some time. So it's utterly idiotic that white people should have "white guilt" and such. Not only is that racist to begin with, but we should strive to recognize everyone and let race not be a factor. If you keep focusing on race, you keep fostering racism.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    This is something that always struck me as a bit off but why does guilt seem to play such a large role in the history of the west? From Canada with its Indian schools to Americans with slavery, and Europe with the holocaust.

    Why is it that these issues seem to press so heavily on the mind of so many especially when the grand majority of people alive had nothing to do with them? Looking around the world this sort of culture seems to really only exist in the west what makes it stick around so long?
    Because significant events like the Holocaust and slavery, have long reaching effects that last beyond the length of those events.

    Your stance is akin to saying once the tornado dissipates, everything is ok now.
    M.A.A.A. Make America Adult Again

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Kantoro View Post
    Victims. Everyone needs to be a victim. For their to be a victim, there needs to be blame. It is a parasitic relationship, Bob beats his kids, but he was abused, his parents are to blame/guilty, his parents were oppressed, the gubment is to blame/guilty. It isn't an endless chain, but no one wants to take responsibility, so they blame someone else, this is forcing guilt onto someone/thing else. In short, there is so much guilt because no one takes responsibility for their own actions. It really isn't guilt, it's blame.
    Bobs parents are guilty of abuse. And Bob is guilty of abuse.

    Both are responsible.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Remember when Europeans were burning people to death for having the wrong religion and being witches and then came to America and were shocked that another religion was cutting people heads off or their hearts out while they were hanging drawing and quartering people.... Tell me... is that not savage?

    Remember when the Spanish came and were astounded at the Aztec empire which had THE WORLDS LARGEST CITY WITH OVER 250K HABITANTS when the biggest city the Europeans had seen was about 50k while the Aztecs built large complex cities that were cleaner than Europeans but clearly they were the savages?

    Your post is based purely on ignorance of history.
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    In Europe at the time which would be 16th century or so.

    Tell me at the time this being 16th century the most populated cities in Europe were about 50k, so AT THAT TIME it was the most developed city they'd seen or knew of in current existence, saying "but in the past" doesn't make sense as that's not what it was about. The claim wasn't that they had made the biggest and best ever... it was that they had the worlds largest city which they did at the time when Europeans went over there.

    When said they were enlightened? Did you miss the part of them sacrificing people? You read in and just assumed shit because that what you do because you want something to argue against regardless of whether it is actually part of an argument or not.
    The pot calling the kettle black...

    ...ever heard of a place called Rome? The hearth of what was the culture of Europe at that time and which more than a millennia earlier had a population in the 500'000 range replete with water piping and public baths? Some estimates even push its population to 1'000'000.
    Its successor Constantinople displayed similar population numbers at the peak of the Eastern Roman Empire, and in 1500 was past 200K reaching back the half a million league under the reign of the Ottomans.

    And you have absolutely no clue about the the state of urbanization in Europe in 1500, just Paris, although not the most sanitized city, had a population in the 200k range at that time, same for Venice.
    Even the sovereign of Spain at that time, Charles V/Carlos I of Habsburg had in his domains large cities such as Antwerp, Bruges, Brussels, Milan, Naples and Palermo which were all in the 100000-250000 range. Even in Spain proper, Barcelona was 70'000 and the recently conquered Granada had a population of at least 70'000 in 1500.

    And those are numbers for late XVth to beginning of XVIth Century, several of those Cities and others grew considerably over the course of the XVIth Century.

    As for the largest city in the World at that time, it is widely accepted that it was Beijing, at 600-1'000K inhabitants. A place Europeans of that time knew about, since they were aiming to reach it when they stumbled on the Americas...
    Last edited by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang; 2019-05-21 at 02:33 PM.

  11. #111
    What makes you think this is part of the western culture? Asians seem to be quite more adapt in the guilt/apology game


  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    If you live in a western nation and you travel or work abroad, the privilege you have is honestly astounding. I can genuinely tell you for a fact that I've avoided countless fines and even jail for simply being white, male and having a decent passport.

    And a lot of these countries I get away with doing stupid shit in, are countries that Britain fucked over to some degree (the list of ones we havent are small).

    Its important to recognise the privilege you have and how easy it makes your life compared to others, even the worst off in our societies have a better chance at life than the best in other countries.

    That being said I dont feel intense guilt or anything, and I think its unrealistic to expect other normal citizens to as well. However its good to remember history, show humility and provide reparations where necessary, a developed and safe world is to the benefit of all.
    Well said. People need to stop being so delicate and understand that criticism of certain aspects of Western history (colonialism...*cough*) does not amount to a personal attack.

    Delenda Est.

  13. #113
    Dreadlord TheImperios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Well said. People need to stop being so delicate and understand that criticism of certain aspects of Western history (colonialism...*cough*) does not amount to a personal attack.
    That. People need to get thicker skin and realise that condemning Western atrocities does not equal to condemning them - unless they go out of their way to justify the atrocities as just or glorious, of course.
    The shadowy Daughter of Urthona stood before red Orc,
    When fourteen suns had faintly journey'd o'er his dark abode:
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by TheImperios View Post
    That. People need to get thicker skin and realise that condemning Western atrocities does not equal to condemning them - unless they go out of their way to justify the atrocities as just or glorious, of course.
    Yeah, no. Please don't twist my words to justify Russian whataboutism.

    Delenda Est.

  15. #115
    Dreadlord TheImperios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yeah, no. Please don't twist my words to justify Russian whataboutism.
    Low of you to judge me purely on my place of residence. I condemn the Holodomor, the Great Purge and Ivan the Terrible just as much as I condemn the Bengal famine and the Holocaust - perhaps even more so, considering that the legacy of Stalinism is all around me.
    The shadowy Daughter of Urthona stood before red Orc,
    When fourteen suns had faintly journey'd o'er his dark abode:
    His food she brought in iron baskets, his drink in cups of iron:
    Crown'd with a helmet and dark hair the nameless female stood;

  16. #116
    Blademaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    This is something that always struck me as a bit off but why does guilt seem to play such a large role in the history of the west? From Canada with its Indian schools to Americans with slavery, and Europe with the holocaust.

    Why is it that these issues seem to press so heavily on the mind of so many especially when the grand majority of people alive had nothing to do with them? Looking around the world this sort of culture seems to really only exist in the west what makes it stick around so long?
    Hate to get political, but this is one of the major ideological differences between democrats and republicans. Democrats accept more guilt and feel the societal norms should be strong-armed to pay for these crimes. Republicans want everyone to move on.

  17. #117
    Legendary! Collegeguy's Avatar
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    Because it's a great platform for exploitation and abuse.

    Kind of like Salem witch trials. If you question me, you're a witch.

  18. #118
    No idea why people feel guilt for something they didn't cause. *shrug*

  19. #119
    Not sure why you think guilt is a large part of Western culture, I don't think that's true at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    Why is it that these issues seem to press so heavily on the mind of so many especially when the grand majority of people alive had nothing to do with them?
    Seems like it is the opposite to me. Look at Germany. They are world champions at acknowledging horrible events of the past and condemning it. You have people condemning the actions of their fathers or grandfathers if they were Nazis, like they former foreign minister Sigmar Gabriel. They don't feel shame or guilt over what some other people who also happened to have been Germans did in the past. This allows them to be enlightened by history, rather than engage in revisionism in order to try to avoid and repress it.

    Compare that to Turkey where the Armenian genocide is a super-sensitive issue, where the government and most Turks refuse to recognize it. It's as if they feel guilty for what some other Turkish people did in the past, and therefore dismiss that it ever happened, claim that it is a smear on the Turkish people and such. Even though they of course have no reason to feel that way. They should just speak honestly about history in order to be enlightened by it, not run from it.

    In this comparison it seems like the country who allowed themselves to be enlightened by history rather than try to re-write it is more open and free and characterized more by humanism compared to the other which is less open, less free and more authoritarian.
    Last edited by Zarc; 2019-05-21 at 04:24 PM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    Haha Europe with holocaust. You mean Germany.
    You act like there weren't plenty of people in occupied countries willing to assist with the Holocaust.

    Delenda Est.

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