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  1. #121
    Banned Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    Haha Europe with holocaust. You mean Germany.
    You act like there weren't plenty of people in occupied countries willing to assist with the Holocaust.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    This is something that always struck me as a bit off but why does guilt seem to play such a large role in the history of the west? From Canada with its Indian schools to Americans with slavery, and Europe with the holocaust.

    Why is it that these issues seem to press so heavily on the mind of so many especially when the grand majority of people alive had nothing to do with them? Looking around the world this sort of culture seems to really only exist in the west what makes it stick around so long?
    look at your past, see what you did wrong, frown and get mad about what you did, make sure you try to never do it again, or never letting anyone else do it again, improvise and try to make stuff better than what happened before.

    TA DAH, you have advanced to the next level! you see now?

  3. #123
    Elemental Lord OneWay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    You act like there weren't plenty of people in occupied countries willing to assist with the Holocaust.
    That "plenty" is what we all called Nazis. I live in country where no one aided the Nazis and even if they did, they were the enemy too.
    "The Dark Lady chooses her champions well."

  4. #124
    I don't think it's as pervasive as we often think. It's just echoed constantly on the news and online so white/western guilt feel a lot more common than it actually is.

    And it doesn't happen as often in other cultures probably because they're a lot less racially diverse as western societies so they feel far less need to apologize in order to appease minority segments of their population. In a society that's 90+% one race, nobody really gives a shit if a group making up 1-2% of the total population is bitter about some injustice from a hundred years ago.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    That "plenty" is what we all called Nazis. I live in country where no one aided the Nazis and even if they did, they were the enemy too.
    Cool. Thanks for acknowledging that antisemitism wasn't exclusive to Germany.

  6. #126
    never heard about guilt before in decent newspaper or as a topic in real life. just some internet blabla

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    You act like there weren't plenty of people in occupied countries willing to assist with the Holocaust.
    they aided because their other choice was death.
    My grandfather in Ukraine could choose to either join the SS which saved his families live, gave food and secuurity or get shot with the jews in the pit.

  7. #127
    Elemental Lord OneWay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Cool. Thanks for acknowledging that antisemitism wasn't exclusive to Germany.
    That is not what I said. Read again.
    "The Dark Lady chooses her champions well."

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    This is something that always struck me as a bit off but why does guilt seem to play such a large role in the history of the west? From Canada with its Indian schools to Americans with slavery, and Europe with the holocaust.

    Why is it that these issues seem to press so heavily on the mind of so many especially when the grand majority of people alive had nothing to do with them? Looking around the world this sort of culture seems to really only exist in the west what makes it stick around so long?
    shit.. White Americans cant grasp the reality of white privilege much less care about slavery.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiih View Post
    they aided because their other choice was death.
    Yeah, no.

    I'm certain that many people made the decision under duress, but trying to sweep the fact that Europe at the time wasn't exactly pro-Jewish under the rug is just dangerous revisionism. It's an attempt to try and cast the Holocaust off as a historical anomaly rather than as the product of a sociocultural environment - the Nazis were able to enact the Holocaust precisely because there was already a strong foundation of prejudice to exploit.

    It's worth noting that the only written protest to the Axis' treatment of the Jews during the War was written by the Archbishop of Athens.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    This is something that always struck me as a bit off but why does guilt seem to play such a large role in the history of the west? From Canada with its Indian schools to Americans with slavery, and Europe with the holocaust.

    Why is it that these issues seem to press so heavily on the mind of so many especially when the grand majority of people alive had nothing to do with them? Looking around the world this sort of culture seems to really only exist in the west what makes it stick around so long?
    Most of us feel 0 guilt over something no one alive today had any cause or effect on. It's just a small vocal minority of people that talk about such stupid ass ideas as reparations for slavery, something which again no one alive today had anything to do with.

  11. #131
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    This is something that always struck me as a bit off but why does guilt seem to play such a large role in the history of the west? From Canada with its Indian schools to Americans with slavery, and Europe with the holocaust.

    Why is it that these issues seem to press so heavily on the mind of so many especially when the grand majority of people alive had nothing to do with them? Looking around the world this sort of culture seems to really only exist in the west what makes it stick around so long?
    Regarding the Canadian natives, maybe my generation didn't hurt them, but their generation is still screwed up because of previous generations. I don't feel guilty over my actions, but I support making their lives better and hopefully convincing them to integrate without forcing it.

    More importantly, guilt is not a bad thing! It is a driver for improvement. The most dangerous people in society are those who never feel guilt over their misdeeds. This trait often leads to criminal behaviour. I'd rather be around someone who is too remorseful than one that never is.

  12. #132
    Guilt can be used as a weapon just as any tool can unfortunately. If you feel guilt because of your actions and not someone pointing it out then that is a time for reflection. forcing guilt on someone because they are not what you want them to be is the toxic weaponized form of it.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yeah, no.

    I'm certain that many people made the decision under duress, but trying to sweep the fact that Europe at the time wasn't exactly pro-Jewish under the rug is just dangerous revisionism. It's an attempt to try and cast the Holocaust off as a historical anomaly rather than as the product of a sociocultural environment - the Nazis were able to enact the Holocaust precisely because there was already a strong foundation of prejudice to exploit.

    It's worth noting that the only written protest to the Axis' treatment of the Jews during the War was written by the Archbishop of Athens.
    Dislike towards Jew and actually kill them in a industrial optimized way are two very different things no ?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way
    Why is guilt such a large part of western culture?
    Research "Original Sin" and cross reference that with Christianity's influence on Western Civilization. Should bring you up to speed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiih View Post
    Dislike towards Jew and actually kill them in a industrial optimized way are two very different things no ?
    The difference is one of degree.

    And on the contrary; "dislike" is what made it so easy to prime the ground for extermination. It's easy to justify revocations of civil liberties if you already view X minority as a social blight; why do you think the right wing in the US is so gung ho on dehumanising minorities.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Because Western culture is guilty of a lot of horrible stuff in recent history. The best way to learn from and not repeat the series of events that led to those acts to is to not forget them.
    No. If you didn't do something, you shouldn't feel guilty. This whole sins of the father bullshit needs to die.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Basically, some morons think that if people did something bad 100 years ago - before you or your parents were alive - you're in someway responsible if you share gender or race. Silly, isn't it.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Basically, some morons think that if people did something bad 100 years ago - before you or your parents were alive - you're in someway responsible. Silly, isn't it.
    Social guilt is not individual guilt. Shocking concept, I know.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Social guilt is not individual guilt. Shocking concept, I know.
    Okay - explain to me how I'm wrong.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Okay - explain to me how I'm wrong.
    Namely in the assertion that the things which are the subject of white guilt are in the past and don't have impacts persisting into the present.

    Criticism of slavery, colonialism, imperialism, etc. is criticism of the systems that supported them and the people who continue to maintain those systems.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Namely in the assertion that the things which are the subject of white guilt are in the past and don't have impacts persisting into the present.

    Criticism of slavery, colonialism, imperialism, etc. is criticism of the systems that supported them and the people who continue to maintain those systems.
    I didn't assert any of that did I - that's you. I made quite a simple statement. I've never had a slave, I don't like slavery - so I have no need to feel guilty about it. The same principle can be said for women's rights, the same thing can be said about religious persecution. How many people alive today in the west openly support slavery do you think?

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