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  1. #41
    Stood in the Fire Reaper0329's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Yes, I do realize being Nazi is currently "constitutionally protected" in the US. That doesn't mean it's right, or they should exist.

    Thankfully, I live in the bigger part of the developed world where it's not protected to be a Nazi. As it should rightfully be.


    Which is just plain wrong, because if anything, not silencing these people who hate democracy, is anathema to democracy, thanks to the tolerance paradox.
    You can argue "should" all day long. It doesn't particularly interest me. I'm grateful my government doesn't decide what viewpoints are permissible to have.

    Free exchange of ideas is one of the underpinnings of democracy, and I, for one, don't trust the government to arbitrate what is and isn't permissible. To silence a group is to disenfranchise them, which is directly counter to democracy. So no, I don't think it's an alt-right position to advocate for freedom of speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Silencing them because giving them a platform erodes democratic principles, however, is not.
    Depends on what you mean by platform. YouTube, Facebook, whatever...all have the right to ban alt-right accounts at will, as they currently are, as far as I am aware. There is no protection for them on that front, as there is no governmental action (obviously). But I think there's a gulf of difference between a company saying "we don't want you here" and the government saying "you cannot say that."
    Last edited by Reaper0329; 2019-05-21 at 06:03 PM.

  2. #42
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper0329 View Post
    Free exchange of ideas is one of the underpinnings of democracy, and I, for one, don't trust the government to arbitrate what is and isn't permissible. To silence a group is to disenfranchise them, which is directly counter to democracy. So no, I don't think it's an alt-right position to advocate for freedom of speech.
    This viewpoint was formulated before ur-fascism became a thing. So, no.
    "Buttigieg is a finger trap for every heterosexual where all they have to do is critique his bad policies without making some terrible comment about his sexuality and they keep coming back running with their fingers trapped inside." - Anthony Oliveira

  3. #43
    Stood in the Fire Reaper0329's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    This viewpoint was formulated before ur-fascism became a thing. So, no.
    I confess I had to look that term up. I had never heard it prior.

    Providing I'm following correctly, out of Eco's fourteen points, does silencing them not run afoul of "Disagreement is Treason," "Obsession with a plot," and arguably "Fear of Difference?"

    I appreciate the new term; it's an interesting read, and I will admit I see some mirrors. I'd read more in-depth if I weren't at work.

    BTW, for you and Pos: we've gotten grossly off topic. Should we, perhaps, start a new thread?
    Last edited by Reaper0329; 2019-05-21 at 06:15 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper0329 View Post
    -usual alt-right talking points-
    I mean, here's the problem with your lot - you think tolerance involves acceptance of intolerance and the intolerant. It is not.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

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  5. #45
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper0329 View Post
    I confess I had to look that term up. I had never heard it prior.

    Providing I'm following correctly, out of Eco's fourteen points, does silencing them not run afoul of "Disagreement is Treason," "Obsession with a plot," and arguably "Fear of Difference?"
    Not in the slightest. There's a world of difference between deplatforming and dehumanizing.
    "Buttigieg is a finger trap for every heterosexual where all they have to do is critique his bad policies without making some terrible comment about his sexuality and they keep coming back running with their fingers trapped inside." - Anthony Oliveira

  6. #46
    Stood in the Fire Reaper0329's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    I mean, here's the problem with your lot - you think tolerance involves acceptance of intolerance and the intolerant. It is not.
    Ah, still labeling people you disagree with as alt right. At least you're consistent.

    You're either missing my point or choosing not to see it. Allowing them to speak does not advocate for or against their position. It's not the content of the speech I'm supporting; it's the act of speaking. You can't cling to tolerance while also saying "because they disagree with me, they cannot be tolerated." Though really, we're both just circling the fishbowl of the tolerance paradox at this point.

    In the context of the ad hominem, I find it amusing that because you don't approve of my position on, largely, an academic point, you feel the need to delegitimize my point by labeling me as alt-right and, therefore, unworthy of listening to. That seems rather...I dunno. Intolerant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Not in the slightest. There's a world of difference between deplatforming and dehumanizing.
    Doesn't forbidding them to speak on some level dehumanize them?

    Also, dunno if either of you saw my earlier post regarding derailing this thread and my suggestion to create a new topic? I don't really care, mind you, but even as frequently as I fervently disagree with OP and question his authenticity in posting from time to time (not here), it's still his thread.
    Last edited by Reaper0329; 2019-05-21 at 06:27 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Butter Emails View Post
    I always get told I'm clueless about Bernie's platforms... that include EXECUTIVE positions and NOT legislative, but when challenged to tell me what they are, people tell me I'm clueless, that I should go research it myself, etc. Funny how Bernie Bros themselves never really know what those executive positions are.
    What the heck is the difference between a “legislative position” and an “executive position?” This is not a distinction I’ve ever heard in presidential politics.
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    What the heck is the difference between a “legislative position” and an “executive position?”
    How are you not able to tell the difference between two halves of a split hair? Blasphemy!

    Although seriously, it's called multiple standards. People you like, you give them a pass. People you hate, you hold them to a standard that's unreasonably higher than everyone else.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  9. #49
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper0329 View Post
    Doesn't forbidding them to speak on some level dehumanize them?
    No, considering the point of contention is what they are saying.
    "Buttigieg is a finger trap for every heterosexual where all they have to do is critique his bad policies without making some terrible comment about his sexuality and they keep coming back running with their fingers trapped inside." - Anthony Oliveira

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    And yet he seems completely incapable of disavowing known crony capitalists, or at least wannabes. You know, like Trump.

    Doesn't help that he's also constantly found in various threads apologizing for other alt-righters.
    What a fucking YUGE lie.

    I despise Trump. I said that in a number of topics. Mostly because of how UTTERLY DUMB he is, and because he surrounded himself with the neocon, warmongering swamp, instead of DRAINING IT, as he fucking promised.

    It just happens that I do not obsess over him, like many here. He's a small, little horrible person, that did an incredible amount of damage to what I believe in; his election allowed the socjus left to rise, which is a tumor on the side I've belonged to for decades.

    Also, if you approve of deplatforming and censorship, I WILL FIGHT YOU. Yes. I will protect free speech as a principle. I am confident enough to take on the right, with WORDS, and emerge victorious often enough, and I've brought people from the brink of right wing idpol by simply opening up to them and treating them as human beings.

    Keep the smears coming. You don't get to shift the whole left to Social Justice and identity politics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapemask View Post
    Yep. I do hate them. They're not people.
    What I find humorous is that NOBODY left leaning, but ME, is bothering with your REPEATED dehumanization of huge groups of people.

    Your kind will eventually resolve in the RW being able to convince their base that they are truly hated to the point where they're no longer regarded as human------------> no longer enjoying human rights.

    This will only result in one thing, and it will be a DISASTER for humankind. You allow emotion and hatred to lead you. You're the same as those you despise. Your hate is not better, is not more pure, and is not more justified. It's still hatred. It should still be vigorously fought.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper0329 View Post
    I typically think of rabid anti-capitalism as a far left point, but perhaps that's just me. Seizing the means of production and all that jazz doesn't invoke imagery of white robes or Cousin Bubba livin' off the grid from the gub'mint.
    I'm not that type, by the way.

    I'm the type that wants to regulate corporations and reduce wealth inequality. I believe that money equals power, and that power should be better spread, not centralized. Spread the money, you spread the power. I don't believe in any sort of communism though, I think competition is necessary and good. But profits should be a bonus, and not the raison d'etre, and workers should have a vested interest in their workplace, not feel like wage slaves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Give Sethrak Blizz View Post
    Alt-right people aren't in favor of capitalism nowadays because they can't use it to justify their racism anymore and corporations in the US are de-platforming them.

    Its all about the free speech and shit.
    Free speech was always a Left talking point, and a good one too. One of the very best. The right has no monopoly on free speech and should NOT be allowed to make it theirs.

    All that takes for this to happen is consistency on whom should have free speech.

    Do you want me to post Richard Spencer again telling the truth how they are OPPOSED to free speech? Because I will. This is what the right truly wants, censorship, control, like they always have.

    A real free speech supporting person would be the one that is defending the right to free speech for those they don't agree with. Hint hint.

    Plus, I am consistent. I regularly criticized the right wing attempts at censoring stuff like hiphop, death metal, creating moral panics and the like. I also criticized the RW state censorship against pro-BDS activists. So I am consistent in my free speech approach.
    Last edited by CryotriX; 2019-05-21 at 07:49 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    That was many years ago. People can change. Also, I would not look at his stance for the death penalty for certain murders as a bad thing anyway. Odds are high he will be the next president of the US.
    I'll forgive someone's past views and becoming a better person. I won't forgive politicians for their past votes and say they have "evolved" now that it's politically convenient.

    Track record will show Biden will leave the race as soon as it gets difficult. His voting record is nothing to brag about, his past statements are on par with Trump, and he will continue to gaff through the primary. He simply can't help himself.
    The worst part about the internet is that it let the truly crazy, racist, and bigots find each other easily.

  12. #52
    Stood in the Fire Reaper0329's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm not that type, by the way.

    I'm the type that wants to regulate corporations and reduce wealth inequality. I believe that money equals power, and that power should be better spread, not centralized. Spread the money, you spread the power. I don't believe in any sort of communism though, I think competition is necessary and good. But profits should be a bonus, and not the raison d'etre, and workers should have a vested interest in their workplace, not feel like wage slaves.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Ah, pardon the over breadth. I was going off memory, and that's prone to failure every now and again. I stand by my original incredulousness at the alt-right troll accusation, however.

  13. #53
    Over 9000! Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arandomuser View Post
    The whole "intellectual dark web" jordan peterson, dave rubin, make this argument, they acted like hillary was a marxist...
    Ahhh so this what you were after... another ride on the ol Jordan Peterson merry go around

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper0329 View Post
    Ah, pardon the over breadth. I was going off memory, and that's prone to failure every now and again. I stand by my original incredulousness at the alt-right troll accusation, however.
    The alt right is pretty much everything against Social Justice in this world view. Idpol is becoming the defining trait of modern politics and since the groups are well drawn on both sides (the rich/the whites/the man vs the poor/the PoC/women), rejection of these groups as a legitimate structure to achieve political goals makes you an outcast and puts you outside the tribal boundaries. Not long ago, I was told I am "useless" politically because of this rejection of idpol.

    And it's not like I do it to be edgy or special. I've gave this years of thinking and reading history. There's nothing good that can come out from identity pride. Only bitter segregation and infighting that will get worse and worse as groups continue to solidify and the purity tests become a legitimate way to ascertain belonging to the group.

    Additionally, alt right is an incredibly useful smear. It's almost universally reviled, for good reason I might add, I am 100% sure even most of its proponents would give it up when faced with the repercussions of what the altright wants, which cannot be achieved peacefully. Hitting your opponents with it enough times, especially if the MSM is helping, will inevitably result in social ostracization and removal from the political area, so basically a win. Considering the outrage culture we live in, if enough people throw the smear, it will end up brainwashing the normies. Seen it on the streets, RL, a few times already, quite a few people are so confused and so mislead by the constant assault from the media coupled with them being a part of these tribal groups, almost cult like behavior coming from some, quite scary actually.

    The coziness of being part of a groups is deceiving. One should learn to love themselves and what they are strongly enough to not need to belong.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by arandomuser View Post
    So i see people on this forum specifically and online, reddit etc, talk about how joe biden of all people is too politically correctt and thats why they are going to vote for trump, because the democrats are just TOO far left
    I think the way he touches peoples kids is the real problem.
    Socialism is the only economic system that requires billionaires to exist.
    https://i.redditmedia.com/P8UE8DAGeB...c1ef120404fdbd
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    This term isn't far off, though it would need the word "scientific" in front of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    Accessibility, ownership, availability; these are all essentially the same thing.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    I'll forgive someone's past views and becoming a better person. I won't forgive politicians for their past votes and say they have "evolved" now that it's politically convenient.

    Track record will show Biden will leave the race as soon as it gets difficult. His voting record is nothing to brag about, his past statements are on par with Trump, and he will continue to gaff through the primary. He simply can't help himself.
    As the old saying goes," time will tell." I am not saying you are wrong, but he sure is off to a good start. Leading everyone by double digits in all of the polls. But I also know, it is far too early to feel confident on his chances of winning. ( I am not going to vote for him anyway. ) A lot can happen between now and Nov. 2020.
    The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that… it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.” - Thomas Jefferson.

    If I do not respond to your post directed at myself, there will be three reasons. 1. You are on my ignore list. 2. You did not make a post I felt was worthy of a response. 3. I simply never saw it, as I do not dig thru posts if I been offline for a while.

  17. #57
    The Insane Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    This is not about fucking Trump.
    If Biden, in his "palatable centrism" is the candidate most capable of taking down Donald Trump, then he has my vote. Because, as I said, that is what's important in the political landscape at this time.

    Warren has flak Trump and the republicans have been slinging against her; we saw how that served to take down Hillary in the last election. Bernie lost once, and politics rarely likes a loser; he might be seen as being too easily dismissable with his "crackpot socialist theories" as I'm sure fox news and partners will begin striking at him with.

    I like both of their political platforms better than Biden, I just don't feel that they're as strong of candidates as appeals to the "average voter."


    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    I think the way he touches peoples kids is the real problem.
    People said that about Trump and women in general, but hey that never amounted to anything either now did it?
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    If Biden, in his "palatable centrism" is the candidate most capable of taking down Donald Trump, then he has my vote. Because, as I said, that is what's important in the political landscape at this time.

    Warren has flak Trump and the republicans have been slinging against her; we saw how that served to take down Hillary in the last election. Bernie lost once, and politics rarely likes a loser; he might be seen as being too easily dismissable with his "crackpot socialist theories" as I'm sure fox news and partners will begin striking at him with.

    I like both of their political platforms better than Biden, I just don't feel that they're as strong of candidates as appeals to the "average voter."




    People said that about Trump and women in general, but hey that never amounted to anything either now did it?
    Sure but I mean Democrats wouldn't tolerate that right....?
    Socialism is the only economic system that requires billionaires to exist.
    https://i.redditmedia.com/P8UE8DAGeB...c1ef120404fdbd
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    This term isn't far off, though it would need the word "scientific" in front of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    Accessibility, ownership, availability; these are all essentially the same thing.

  19. #59
    The Insane Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    Sure but I mean Democrats wouldn't tolerate that right....?
    The context (as is usually the case in these situations) is completely different.

    Putting your hand on someone's shoulder, surprisingly, is not the same as grabbing someone's vagina without their consent. Even moreso when the person apologized for the former, while the latter person bragged about it.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    If Biden, in his "palatable centrism" is the candidate most capable of taking down Donald Trump, then he has my vote. Because, as I said, that is what's important in the political landscape at this time.
    The assumption here being that "centrism" is a) palatable, or that b) Biden's version of it is actually reflective of what the "middle voter" in America wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Bernie lost once, and politics rarely likes a loser
    Shhh! Don't tell Ronald Reagan!
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

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