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  1. #21
    I am Murloc! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    But who would oppose him... and why?
    Because he defects to the rebels. Possible named NPCs to take a stand:
    Spoiler: 
    - Magister Hathorel. He features in the 8.2 scenario where Honor-Horde and Alliance kill Sunreavers to spring out an apparent traitor. He's extremely hateful of Jaina and the Horde rebels in the scene.
    - Rommath is another. He's always been resentful of Dalaran, but for Jaina his hatred is tenfold thanks to the Purge, which he witnessed first hand. He would feel the same as Hathorel for the events in 8.2. His closer relationship to Lorthemar would also make their feud more dramatic.

    And once more, I don't think the presence of the Sunreavers at Baine's prison area was random, but a deliberate inclusion by Sylvanas. She expected someone to spring Baine out, but why have Sunreavers specifically ambush the perps? Also, if Nathanos is to be believed, she even planned for them to fail. Sunreavers, victims of Jaina's injustice couple of years ago, once more slain by her, with the assistance of Horde rebels. It can serve as Loyalist propaganda, but more specifically drive a wedge between blood elves and Lorthemar, who sides with the rebels despite such an event. Sylvanas apparently expected him to defect too.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    Has the BE lore been retconned or something? I mean, back in TBC it was explicitly shown that they were a totalitarian society.
    Well, what has changed so far is Lorthemar losing his will to enforce shit, unless he is just covering his shenanigans to the eyes of the honorbois and pretends to use his totalitarian means to throw his people to the honor squad. But having already fought Sunreavers, it's clear at the very least not all would go with him, and at the very least I could see Aethas displeased with him.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Because he defects to the rebels. Possible named NPCs to take a stand:
    I know about this but it seems like an isolated group to me and also someone extremely minor. But then again I also don't understand why normal members of the horde are standing behind Sylvanas and why they think she will bring peace.

  4. #24
    The goblins, mag'har, seemingly most of the forsaken, and generally younger demographic who are eager for total victory over the Alliance (that didn't learn their lesson with Garrosh...)

    I do think finding out she tried to have Thrall assassinated is going to rock the boat though. I'm not sure anyone was even told what happened to Saurfang following his capture. Did she seed lies about him conspiring with the Alliance? Does everyone just think he's dead?

    What's interesting is we don't have a rebellion, but we do have enough powerful figures that, if they reveal themselves, the Horde will take notice. The Horde might be run like a dictatorship but these are generally well respected figures, which is why Sylvanas has resorted to so much subterfuge to be quietly rid of them. Executing them in the streets would cause an outcry.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    I know about this but it seems like an isolated group to me and also someone extremely minor. But then again I also don't understand why normal members of the horde are standing behind Sylvanas and why they think she will bring peace.
    Last question has an easy answer. Sylvanas actually sold the Horde a will to impose a statu quo where the Alliance is no more, it's members either dead or dismantled and pacified individually. Without an Alliance to be in war with, and excluding a random ammount of world ending threats and forgotten menaces, the Horde would find peace and prosper.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Most of the leadership is anti-Sylvanas by the end of 8.2, except Geya'rah and Gallywix. The masses however are on Sylvanas's side, with the possible exception of the tauren. Bob mentions she has the loyalty of the people and the devs emphasize her support among basically everyone except the leadership as well. We've also seen zero opposition from anyone except the higher ups all this time. This is likely set to change when Bob tells them she's an old god puppet, but as of what we have on-screen her public agenda has widespread support.
    I'd say we know she has support, probably majority support among the military. It is unclear what the civilians of the Horde thing tbh. Not that it counts, the only civilians in WoW who seem to have any power are the gnomes.

  7. #27
    In the past the Horde argument has been that it's only been leaders who did evil and that the regular people don't support war and genocide.

    Now the argument is that the regular people support war and genocide but the leaders are against it.

    Usual Horde confusion.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd say we know she has support, probably majority support among the military. It is unclear what the civilians of the Horde thing tbh. Not that it counts, the only civilians in WoW who seem to have any power are the gnomes.
    It's mostly a non-issue since civilians only exist in the two types of elves and very arguably the Forsaken and the Forsaken ones back Sylvanas. Civilians as far as the orcs are concerned are either contemptible (if Mag'har) or pitiable (if regular). Tauren and trolls are also people where everyone has some kind of basic survival and combat skill, even if they don't have that dislike for non-combat related work that the orcs do.

    @Trumpcat

    The whole "X made me do it, I dindu nuffin" thing was always a weak cop out. It was bad in Mists, when at least you could make the argument that Garrosh used force rather than just their word to coerce them into doing things. With Sylvanas we've seen zero opposition except from the higher ups and everyone's gleefully doing atrocities, which I figured was unintentional, but no, as per the recent interviews and 8.2, this is actually part of the lesson we're meant to learn. Sometimes the plebs just want to slaughter and it takes an enlightened leader to put them in their place.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by MatthiasVonTzeskagrad View Post
    Last question has an easy answer. Sylvanas actually sold the Horde a will to impose a statu quo where the Alliance is no more, it's members either dead or dismantled and pacified individually. Without an Alliance to be in war with, and excluding a random ammount of world ending threats and forgotten menaces, the Horde would find peace and prosper.
    I mean all chances are, the Horde would slowly turn on its own after a while.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I do think finding out she tried to have Thrall assassinated is going to rock the boat though. I'm not sure anyone was even told what happened to Saurfang following his capture. Did she seed lies about him conspiring with the Alliance? Does everyone just think he's dead?
    For Sylvanas to seed lies about Saurfang conspiring with the Alliance Saurfang would need to have not already conspired with the Alliance.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by MatthiasVonTzeskagrad View Post
    Last question has an easy answer. Sylvanas actually sold the Horde a will to impose a statu quo where the Alliance is no more, it's members either dead or dismantled and pacified individually. Without an Alliance to be in war with, and excluding a random ammount of world ending threats and forgotten menaces, the Horde would find peace and prosper.
    But the Horde most of the time has more internal problems then external. While she could beat the night elfs after that she loses at every front. Also from a citizen perspective unless Sylvanas did a giant propaganda campaign, after Legion there was relative peace, also the Alliance helped them to claim Ogrimmar some years before. You could bring up that Alliance attacked Silithus... but that is pretty far away and really a minor thing where you don't suddenly start to think that you need to destroy and genocide the other faction to get peace.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    But the Horde most of the time has more internal problems then external. While she could beat the night elfs after that she loses at every front. Also from a citizen perspective unless Sylvanas did a giant propaganda campaign, after Legion there was relative peace, also the Alliance helped them to claim Ogrimmar some years before. You could bring up that Alliance attacked Silithus... but that is pretty far away and really a minor thing where you don't suddenly start to think that you need to destroy and genocide the other faction to get peace.
    The Alliance did attempt to assassinate the Warchief during a war with Satan and successfully destroyed a lot of her fleet. Legion wasn't a time of peace, it's just that the factions were too screwed to do much until the Order halls presumably disbanded. Immediately after that azerite creeps up and you have the stuff in Silithus and the Gathering, both of which Sylvanas would spin and were followed up by Anduin filling Orgrimmar with spies and rogues that everyone knew were there, further upping the Horde's negative attitudes.

    Besides, the Horde races have a laundry list of things they're salty about vis a vis the Alliance and that one time the Alliance helped them invade their own city and then threatened to destroy them isn't really a feather in their cap, if anything it's a humiliating exercise. Sure, we as players know the Alliance was extremely lenient in all these cases, but the average citizen doesn't nor would they care since even if Sylvanas were to spontaneously vanish and the war to cease as Anduin intends, they would all be better off by virtue of holding Ashenvale than they were when it started out, which coupled with all the new allies she's got them makes her a net positive for everyone (except the Forsaken funnily enough). It's that she won't cease to be but instead has a hidden agenda as an old god puppet that'll change their minds.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    For Sylvanas to seed lies about Saurfang conspiring with the Alliance Saurfang would need to have not already conspired with the Alliance.
    And when did that happen? Anduin let him out, we never saw him agree to anything, and next we saw him he was living in a swamp.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    And when did that happen? Anduin let him out, we never saw him agree to anything, and next we saw him he was living in a swamp.
    Do you really need every single thing spelled out for you before it clicks? Anduin outright told him he can't defeat Sylvanas alone and moments after that let the doors to his open for him (and as we know from the quest, the SI:7 assisted in his escape). And the very Saurfang that refused to leave his cell when an opportunity given by the Horde arose, immediately jumped on the opportunity given by his god-boiking, just after Anduin pretty much told him he needs his help.

    And please, Saurfang outright works with the Alliance in 8.2 scenario. You had little to stand on prior to 8.2 PTR. Now it's just facetious nonsense on your part.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Do you really need every single thing spelled out for you before it clicks? Anduin outright told him he can't defeat Sylvanas alone and moments after that let the doors to his open for him (and as we know from the quest, the SI:7 assisted in his escape). And the very Saurfang that refused to leave his cell when an opportunity given by the Horde arose, immediately jumped on the opportunity given by his god-boiking, just after Anduin pretty much told him he needs his help.

    And please, Saurfang outright works with the Alliance in 8.2 scenario. You had little to stand on prior to 8.2 PTR. Now it's just facetious nonsense on your part.
    Sue me I haven't spoiled the 8.2 PTR yet. If it's not in the game yet don't blame me for not knowing about it.

    Yes I need things "spelled out", I'm not going to be like Sylvanas and kill people on the slightest whiff of an inkling that they might possibly do something wrong in the future. The only reason why there even is anyone she has to be concerned about is the self-fulfilling prophecy of that paranoia.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2019-05-22 at 10:36 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Do you really need every single thing spelled out for you before it clicks?
    Teapot calling the kettle black?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by mario710 View Post
    Teapot calling the kettle black?
    How about you contribute something to the lore forum other than your derailing and meaningless replies to me? It's not only boring as hell, but it's getting rather creepy obsessive vibes at this point.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Sue me I haven't spoiled the 8.2 PTR yet. If it's not in the game yet don't blame me for not knowing about it.
    Don't feel bad for not knowing.

    You're simply in the spirit of conversation. You shouldn't have your opinions referred to as facetious nonsense because you have a differing opinion.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Sue me I haven't spoiled the 8.2 PTR yet. If it's not in the game yet don't blame me for not knowing about it.
    The bit in regards to 8.2 is not even half of my post though. The rest of it has been about piece of lore that has been in game (well, technically on YouTube) for whooping 6 months and 3 weeks by now.

    Oh, right, since it's technically not in game I guess I can't blame you for knowing about it either, I guess.

  20. #40
    The people of the Horde (or at least enough of a majority) are still behind the war for now, but they've literally never mattered before and are unlikely to matter now. The rebellion is a pretty hush-hush thing as of now, Baine being the only one who openly defied Sylvanas, and the lamba Horde soldier likely has no idea that Saurfang is even still alive let alone what he's been doing. Lor'themar and the rest only joined recently for a covert mission.

    By the time that the rebellion goes loud, however, expect the plot to conspire to make Sylvanas unpalatable to most, likely via Old God corruption or something.

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