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  1. #61
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Blizzard keeps dropping hints that the majority support Sylvanas but most of the leaders don't (Besides Geya'rah and Gallywix, the latter of who can be bought).

    Though I doubt it'll matter much in the end. The Horde is always reduced to it's shrinking cast leaders. Hopefully one day that cast will be gone entirely.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    -that Sylvanas was also a part of.
    irrelevant to the fact that Saurfang is likely to do so again with everyone knowing he has a hissy fit with Sylvanas as Warchief

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    -Sylv. could have easily arrested both of them at the same time.
    and?
    Arrest/killing traitors, whats the difference
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  3. #63
    Maybe it's just me, but I really expect the blizzard "morally gray twist" to be sylvannas is working against n'zoth, and and magni (obviously) / anduin are puppets to his will. Alliance will be the faction that unleashes/empowers n'zoth and it will turn out that is what sylvannas was fighting against the whole time

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfodr View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but I really expect the blizzard "morally gray twist" to be sylvannas is working against n'zoth, and and magni (obviously) / anduin are puppets to his will. Alliance will be the faction that unleashes/empowers n'zoth and it will turn out that is what sylvannas was fighting against the whole time
    Believe me, I want to live in this timeline. Anduin is a priest, and if we alliance players were the ones mysteriously compelled to bring him a shadow priest artifact weapon, that'd be interesting. Especially since Anduin has been demonstrated to be willing to use the Mind control spell. "It's the only way we can defeat the Horde once and for all."

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    and?
    Arrest/killing traitors, whats the difference
    When they were only betraying you by attempting to stop you from crossing the last threshold to being the Lich Queen, yes I'd say that distinction is important. At the least, for consistency to show you're mentally stable.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2019-05-23 at 03:37 AM.

  5. #65
    Maybe Sylvanas will become Anduin's concubine?

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by mario710 View Post
    Maybe Sylvanas will become Anduin's concubine?
    Ewww. Anduin is not a necrophiliac. Also considering he's been shown to like Draenei and Dwarven ladies, it's clear that Anduin is an ass man. Sylvanas is just not thicc. Plus, you'd need a gas mask (for the stench, not the blight) and so, so much lube.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    For Sylvanas to seed lies about Saurfang conspiring with the Alliance Saurfang would need to have not already conspired with the Alliance.
    There is a degree to it however. Saurfang is (in his mind) trying to save to Horde. So Sylvanas could still seed lies about his intentions.

  8. #68
    Sylvanas will die and Anduin feels bad for her so he raises her als light touched undead and she gets her redemption ark while praising the human potential.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    Sylvanas will die and Anduin feels bad for her so he raises her als light touched undead and she gets her redemption ark while praising the human potential.
    Truly a fate worse than death. Even Sylvanas doesn't deserve something so horrible.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    There is a degree to it however. Saurfang is (in his mind) trying to save to Horde. So Sylvanas could still seed lies about his intentions.
    In Saurfang's mind striking one Night Elf from behind is the height of dishonor while scaling the slopes of Hyjal with an army of assassins to strike a boatload of Night Elves from behind is honor incarnate. He also kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet about being the person who planned the War of Thorns and being in its favor because war, fuck yeah. Saurfang's brain is pudding at this point, what happens in his mind doesn't reflect all that much on the rest of the world.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    -Yes there is. Who the hell takes the time to build an entire house with a bunkbed if you're just camping there for an afternoon on the way to commit some more treason? He would have been stupid to deny their support in escaping. (and don't bring up the time we tried to break him out, he was still in maximum self-loathing mode of "as long as I'm stuck in here I can't be forced to be complicit in more evil warcrimes.")
    -game wise it's ambiguous. IIRC he says something to the extent of "if you're here to kill me, come at me then." and then the player initiates the fight. I took that to mean the dark rangers started it if the player didn't, but it's left ambiguous, especially on the loyalist route where the player isn't there to witness it.
    And who told you that Saurfang was the one who built it? Fairies?

    And I'm not sure how you pointing out that Saurfang was consumed by self-loathing when Rokhan tried to free him, with said self-loathing miraculously disappearing when his god-boiking appeared in his life does your argument any favors.

    And there's nothing ambiguous about Saurfang's scenario. Lyana informed Saurfang he has been found guilty of treason against the Horde and then informs Zekhan and the non-Horde players that her orders come from the Warchief of the Horde. When Saurfang crawls out of his shithole upon hearing Zekhan, he asks what Lyana's orders (from the Warchief of the Horde) are. And then she addresses him again and tells him he's to be apprehended for his treason.

    Treason that includes him abandoning his duty to the Horde, turning his back on his people and conspiring with the humans against the Warchief. And, if he refused to cooperate with people acting on Warchief's orders to apprehend him, he was to be killed (which, again, according to Baine himself is a rightful punishment for treason in the Horde).

    Does Saurfang surrender and cooperate with enforcers of the Warchief's will? No. He deflects by talking about them seeking a fight, which is an outright lie on his part, because Lyana just told him what she's there to do. With fighting being only a recourse in case Saurfang turned into an even bigger criminal shitstain and refused to surrender.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    What did not happen:
    Saurfang: ...and that's how we're absolutely going to work together to depose Sylvanas now that I've renounced all ties to the Horde!
    Anduin: Good to hear, Saurfang! Down with Sylvanas!
    Dark Rangers: AHA! We have caught you red-handed, Saurfang!
    Anduin: Later, dude! * bubble hearths because he's basically a paladin now *
    Saurfang: Die, Horde scum! For The Alliance! * attacks the dark rangers unprovoked *
    Saurfang: Well, I'm off to go recruit Thrall into the Alliance! I think I'll say this as loudly as possible and leave an obvious trail to intentionally trick Thrall into thinking the dark rangers were after him before I gave them the idea!
    What did, however, happen: Saurfang left his cell only after Anduin more than implied that he needs his cooperation, and then proceeded to escape his imprisonment with, lo and behold, Anduin's and SI:7's cooperation. With Dark Rangers then finding out about SI:7's involvement in his escape. Just because you can't operate on something that's "merely" more than implied and you need Blizzard to spoonfeed you every single bit of information directly doesn't mean everyone else also has this weird impediment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You're right, I'm not entirely sure. I'll need at least two more sadorc cinematics before I fully comprehend.
    We will for sure get some more, don't worry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    On the note of proving "In every scenario so far Sylvanas had an opportunity to not be evil and things would have gone more smoothly."

    Sylvanas: Despite Saurfang's weakness leaving us at a disadvantage, at least it removed Malfurion and Tyrande from the battle. I'll have to keep an eye on him. Still, proceed as planned, let's invade that tree.
    Except Saurfang didn't just "leave them at disadvantage". He rendered the entire war moot, because with Malfurion alive holding the tree was turned infeasible according to the very campaign Saurfang himself has planned. Burning of Teldrassil salvaged the situation and Saurfang himself acknowledged Sylvanas' logic as right when she explained herself to him. He only disagreed on the grounds of muh honor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Sylvanas: Perhaps you're right, Baine. Leaving Saurfang alone to face the Alliance was the wrong move. It sounds like Saurfang is being taken prisoner out there. Should we encounter him in the Stockades, we'll take him with us whether he wants to or not. He shouldn't resist, since we haven't done any supervillainous warcrimes that would leave him jaded and self-hating or anything.
    Saurfang refused orders and made his bed. And Saurfang already turned traitor just because he struck Malfurion from behind and couldn't cope with the great dishonor Sylvanas forced upon him, Teldrassil was just a bonus for him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Sylvanas: Baine, you are under arrest. Zelling, you will be taken in for questioning. Your concerns about my plans should have been spoken instead of scheming behind my back. We cannot afford to splinter as victory against the Alliance stands before us. Dismissed.
    You're running in circles at this point. There was no need for questioning Zelling, because Sylvanas had first hand account of his involvement from the people who "played along" with his and Baine's treason. And, again, according to Baine himself the death penalty is rightful punishment for treason in the Horde. Even lesser degree of treason than what Zelling did. Even when the death penalty is delivered in rather sneaky manner.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    <sad Traitorfang video snip>

    You could rewatch the cinematic where that doesn't happen.
    You mean the video where Anduin informs Saurfang he can't defeat Sylvanas without his help and this is what motivates him to finally leave his cell? After which he's helped by the SI:7 in his escape? You have a weird definition of something not happening.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    <garbage video snip>

    Or the 20 minute breakdown where every 5 seconds he pauses to thoroughly analyze the symbolism, implications, and emotional musical direction of every individual shot and action, where that also does not happen.

    Rub my face in it if I'm wrong come the final version of 8.2, but I'm talking about what's in the story now.
    Is a video from T&E supposed to prove anything? They are so partial towards the Alliance they may Anduin look like second Nathanos by comparison.


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sylvanas has no obligation to be lenient towards the people who've offed several Horde troops by this point to spirit away a Horde asset to the Alliance because Baine felt bad. Executions for treason, which this is, are standard in most states. In those they aren't, it's life imprisonment. She is however still lenient because she sticks Baine in the slammer instead of immediately executing him. People with more brains like Thrall and Garrosh didn't do this, they executed Burx and Krom'gar on the spot.
    Technically Garrosh waited over two years to kill Vol'jin for his treason (that Baine himself argued Vol'jin has committed).


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I can see what you're connecting: This notion that Saurfang still believes this has to be a war of extermination when he says that, which would require the Horde to be totally destroyed alongside Sylvanas, and saying that remained his position ever since.

    Important context, and I considered it, but you're still wrong. Again, because of the very same cinematic, where he lays out everything in his rant.

    "I have given EVERYTHING for the Horde...and Sylvanas is DESTROYING it. She will destroy everything!"
    "What I WANT is my Horde back."

    He doesn't want the Horde gone. Anduin doesn't either, which Saurfang was forced to conclude. Anduin didn't let him out after any sort of agreement, just stated what he wanted and then had the faith that things would work out, as we've come to expect from Anduin.
    But given how "his" Horde doesn't exist anymore an, at the point of cinematic, he was the only dissenter (as Lor'themar and even Baine were yet to betray Sylvanas, to get "his" Horde back, Anduin would have needed to destroy the actual and not dissenting Horde for him. Saurfang getting any Hordes is impossible without destroying the actual Horde. Then and only then would Saurfang have "his" Horde back.

    Besides, destruction of the actual Horde aside, Traitofrang wanting "his" nonexistent Horde back is not mutually exclusive with him working with the Alliance to achieve that goal. In fact, he is explicitly spurned to action only when Anduin informs him he needs his help to defeat the Warchief of the actual Horde.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    But, if he DIDN'T go back on this agreement with Anduin, and had every intention of working with Anduin to destroy the Horde, that goes back on his word of saying he wanted to stop Sylvanas from destroying the Horde and thus ensure its long term survival. Rather than betraying Anduin, he would be betraying his remaining pro-Horde loyalties he has professed.
    But those loyalties don't exist to begin with, as he is literally a traitor to the Horde. He can't betray something that doesn't exist anywhere else than his lying ass. Besides, his intention of working with Anduin was explicitly to "regain" "his" Horde, where no such thing exists. So what Saurfang actually professed is his desire to hijack the actual Horde through illegal means. With the help of the Alliance no less. It's outright impossible for Saurfang to get his delusional non-entity "back" without the destruction (with the help of Alliance as his method of choice, because he's an Alliance asset at this point) of the actual Horde led by Sylvanas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  11. #71
    The Horde should not exist anymore. What is the point of an organisation that can only wage war and nothing else? There is no need for the Horde anymore.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfodr View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but I really expect the blizzard "morally gray twist" to be sylvannas is working against n'zoth, and and magni (obviously) / anduin are puppets to his will. Alliance will be the faction that unleashes/empowers n'zoth and it will turn out that is what sylvannas was fighting against the whole time
    It would be the cheapest cop out ever made. A justification to the Lich Queens plans to end all life. Blizzard might as well end the game if that comes to pass cause noone would continue after that.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Most of the leadership is anti-Sylvanas by the end of 8.2, except Geya'rah and Gallywix. The masses however are on Sylvanas's side, with the possible exception of the tauren. Bob mentions she has the loyalty of the people and the devs emphasize her support among basically everyone except the leadership as well. We've also seen zero opposition from anyone except the higher ups all this time. This is likely set to change when Bob tells them she's an old god puppet, but as of what we have on-screen her public agenda has widespread support.
    Because Sylvanas is using Propaganda and False image to do that.
    She told everyone that Saurfang is Dead, she probably Lied about Baine, and the day when He, Baine and Thrall Shows up in Orgrimmar will be the day where she flips out and goes full Almalexia.
    She's going to betray and kill a leader in full insanity and drive the horde against her in public.

    Everything that Ayem did is starting to rub on her, mainly her search to lie, deceit and keep herself as a Goddess/Alive, She's pretty much starting to sound Like the Anticipation of Boethiah in Tribunal.

    And yes, im using Elder Scrolls analogy in this one because Sylvanas is clearly taking notes from Alma.

    As for the Player Siding with her, expect the player also being Betrayed soon and being met by Assassins looking for the Heart.
    Last edited by PelinalWhitestrake; 2019-05-23 at 03:03 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by PelinalWhitestrake View Post
    Because Sylvanas is using Propaganda and False image to do that.
    She told everyone that Saurfang is Dead, she probably Lied about Baine, and the day when He, Baine and Thrall Shows up in Orgrimmar will be the day where she flips out and goes full Almalexia.
    She's going to betray and kill a leader in full insanity and drive the horde against her in public.

    Everything that Ayem did is starting to rub on her, mainly her search to lie, deceit and keep herself as a Goddess/Alive, She's pretty much starting to sound Like the Anticipation of Boethiah in Tribunal.

    And yes, im using Elder Scrolls analogy in this one because Sylvanas is clearly taking notes from Alma.

    As for the Player Siding with her, expect the player also being Betrayed soon and being met by Assassins looking for the Heart.
    Sylvanas is lying, but not about her enemies. She has publicly declared Saurfang a traitor and everyone you meet in the Underhold, from orcs, to goblins to elves to Forsaken have zero issue in fighting him and Thrall to the death. Ditto, she's set to execute Baine and it's tauren who arrest him about a crime he provably did commit. Where she's being deceptive is that she isn't actually doing this to enable the Horde to take over the world like she claims but to accomplish whatever her secret old god related goal is. At some stage that'll involve trying to kill the PC because Blizzard need to detach the loyalist player from Sylvanas and this is the only recourse left to them after they cocked up literally everyone in the cast to try and fail to make her less palatable than the Red Alliance.

    Besides, the closest we have to Sotha Sil is our boy Gelbin.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-05-23 at 03:13 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sylvanas is lying, but not about her enemies. She has publicly declared Saurfang a traitor and everyone you meet in the Underhold, from orcs, to goblins to elves to Forsaken have zero issue in fighting him and Thrall to the death. Ditto, she's set to execute Baine and it's tauren who arrest him about a crime he provably did commit. Where she's being deceptive is that she isn't actually doing this to enable the Horde to take over the world like she claims but to accomplish whatever her secret old god related goal is. At some stage that'll involve trying to kill the PC because Blizzard need to detach the loyalist player from Sylvanas and this is the only recourse left to them after they cocked up literally everyone in the cast to try and fail to make her less palatable than the Red Alliance.

    Besides, the closest we have to Sotha Sil is our boy Gelbin.
    Calling a goblin as Sotha CHAD, Mainframe of the Clockwork city is heresy!
    Gelbin didn't Consent with The Daedric Prince of Deceit and Sex in her true form for centuries, so she can keep her ideas of invading Tamriel to kill the tribunal for good out of her mind, or gave Merhunes Dagon a seething and painful Butthurt for centures for not agreeing with the non planemeld pact when he razed Mournhold.
    Or transferred his soul and mind into His Clockwork city, so he can live eternally working with the blueprints for the next kalpa with no daedric influence, while being on the good side of Azura.
    .

    Yes its her true form, even if daedric princes are considered to be genderless, though its also canon that Boethiah is also a woman, and uses Trinimac's skin to pose as male, while she roams around freely in Tamriel as a Friendly Dunmer Amazon, or that its hinted that Indoril Nerevar is Her Son, aka a Demiprince, with no one less than Veloth, who she holds dearly.

    Yes they dug even more the rabbit hole of lore, and even the eldritch aberrations may develop affection and more.

    Now enough with the random Elder Scrolls lore talk, these things belongs to the ESO thread.

    Also im pointing the many related stuff to the Tribunal quest, because im playing Morrowind again, since i killed my sub, and its very similar how the events are pointing out for Murder and Betrayal soon.

    As for the secret Old god plan, its plausible that her soul was being corrupted ever since she had the "GENIUS" Idea of impale herself with the Solidified Blood of an Old God without knowing the side effects, which tore her soul connection to the light in the afterlife.

    This also brings the fact that she may use void powers from the dagger, after she uses it on N'zoth to bring an Death Entity to Azeroth, if people takes the bullshit that nzoth and the comic spoke of about her being the enemy of all life.
    Last edited by PelinalWhitestrake; 2019-05-23 at 04:30 PM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Iambackagain666 View Post
    Is there a faction (minus Forsaken) who are still loyal to Sylvanas going into 8.3?

    Tauren: No
    Belfs: Soon to be no
    Orcs: Most will be undecided until Thrall Jesus shows up with Saurfang
    Trolls: They will follow Thrall and what the Orcs do
    Goblins: They will side with the winning faction so if it looks like things are slipping away for Sylvanas then they will walk.
    Pandaren: By the looks of it they have no reason to side with Sylvanas going into 8.3

    Allied Races

    Highmountain: They seems to be pretty pissed over what happened to Baine so thats a no for them
    NBelfs: They seem to think that Sylvanas is turning into Elisande so there loyalty is questionable
    Mag'har: They seem to be the only race that really dont know any history or whats going on so there loyalty is still good but if Thrall talks to them.....
    Zandalari: Queen Talanji has reasons to be loyal but she isnt stupid plus she is a Queen and that title makes her weary of Sylvanas who atm outranks her in the Horde.

    (I support Sylvanas BTW but i want to gauge the loyalty of the factions going into 8.3)
    Tauren: Probably not due to Baine.
    Blood Elves: Seems to be conflicted in 8.2, Lor'themar sided with "rebel side" yet his people seems to side with Sylvanas.
    Orcs: There is no clue about them.
    Trolls: There is no clue about them, yet i would say that since Vol'Jin named Sylvanas Warchief, most will follow her due to his leader naming her.
    Goblins: They are currently siding with Sylvanas.
    Pandaren: There is no clue about them.

    Highmountain: Probably will follow the Tauren due to Baine.
    Shal'Dorei: There is no clue about them.
    Mag'har: There is no clue about them.
    Zandalari: She has a lot of reasons to follow Sylvanas, since she didnt abandon her when she lost his father and the fleet. There is not much said about their personal relationship, but i'd say they are mostly friendly so they will probably follow her.

  17. #77
    Scarab Lord Dellis0991's Avatar
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    As it stands the forsaken, mag'har and golbins stand with Sylvanas. Golbins are the wild card if they feel that Sylvanas is losing and the money isn't there most of them will flip on her ass. Mag'har are kind of in a strange predicament, they don't know enough of the events that led up to this, but if Etrigg, Thrall, and Saurfang have a chat with She thrall there is a chance they may walk away.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Truly a fate worse than death. Even Sylvanas doesn't deserve something so horrible.
    Finally we agree on something. That would be right up with if they had decided to have Xe'ra lightforge Illidan.

  19. #79
    The only race to probably drop off from liking her is probably the Tauren. I think it was stated that she still holds the loyalty of most of the Horde and wasn't their dialogue of Lor'themar hoping his people join him, implying that he's going against the public opinion they have of her, unlike with Garrosh who was disliked by most of the races.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by PelinalWhitestrake View Post
    Because Sylvanas is using Propaganda and False image to do that.
    She told everyone that Saurfang is Dead, she probably Lied about Baine, and the day when He, Baine and Thrall Shows up in Orgrimmar will be the day where she flips out and goes full Almalexia.
    She's going to betray and kill a leader in full insanity and drive the horde against her in public.

    Everything that Ayem did is starting to rub on her, mainly her search to lie, deceit and keep herself as a Goddess/Alive, She's pretty much starting to sound Like the Anticipation of Boethiah in Tribunal.

    And yes, im using Elder Scrolls analogy in this one because Sylvanas is clearly taking notes from Alma.

    As for the Player Siding with her, expect the player also being Betrayed soon and being met by Assassins looking for the Heart.
    I mean as far as Baine I don't think she had to. That's what the Horde meeting was for. She already knew from informants what Baine did, and used that to deflect criticism from her (for going full supervillain and becoming the Lich Queen, which we were hearing murmurs of dissent from) to Baine (how dare he try to stop her from doing that!)

    It's pretty genius TBH. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she's done that same spin on Saurfang, twisting everything he's done to try to make it sound like he's already defected to the Alliance and has to be stopped. Her only missteps have been failing to actually carry out the back alley assassinations.

    It's all going to fall apart once they're all together and can confront the populace and expose this web of lies. Even if they don't believe Saurfang, they'll believe Thrall.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2019-05-23 at 05:58 PM.

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