Is there a faction (minus Forsaken) who are still loyal to Sylvanas going into 8.3?

[Super Dickmann]

I mean as far as Baine I don't think she had to. That's what the Horde meeting was for. She already knew from informants what Baine did, and used that to deflect criticism from her (for going full supervillain and becoming the Lich Queen, which we were hearing murmurs of dissent from) to Baine (how dare he try to stop her from doing that!)

It's pretty genius TBH. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she's done that same spin on Saurfang, twisting everything he's done to try to make it sound like he's already defected to the Alliance and has to be stopped. Her only missteps have been failing to actually carry out the back alley assassinations.

It's all going to fall apart once they're all together and can confront the populace and expose this web of lies. Even if they don't believe Saurfang, they'll believe Thrall.

If Sylvanas weren't a 80 IQ moron she would've just had the dark rangers torch the hut and kill Saurfang instead of going through the rigamarole of arresting him when the verdict for treason is death anyway. Sadly for her, and for the future of this godforsaken faction, she didn't do it and she didn't kill Baine or Malfurion either. She is indeed the architect of her own failure, but not for the moronic reasons the writers want to tell us she is.

Past that, your point vis a vis Thrall is wrong. The orcish grunts in the Baine scenario try to chop Thrall with axes and his opinion with orcs had cratered expansions ago. Sylvanas isn't some kind of master of propaganda for stating the objective truth about her opposition.

We do agree on the ending though. Sylvanas should go out like Garry, driving her opponents into depression and liberating us from their presence in the plot. Holy Sylvanas is on par with Calia.

[MikeBogina]

Ask Shaw, he planning for war and the war after that one and the war after that.

Are you implying that Shaw and Gallywyx came to an agreement, with their agents both working in Silithus and agreed to introduce Azerite to their respective leaders, to instigate a war, while they both sit back and make profits off it?

[formerShandalay]

Ask Shaw, he planning for war and the war after that one and the war after that.

He is not 'planning' for war. His outlook in this little talk you got that quote from, is simply a lot more realistic and maybe disillusioned than Halford's. Halford is talking about peace and whatnot after this war is over, like any good Paladin should, but Shaw has no such illusions. He knows, even when one war ends, the next is right around the corner, just like it's always been. They talk about what thy expect in their future and what they have left after the war, to which Shaw answers 'The next war. And the one after that'. Which is exactly what you should expect if you've paid any attention as an operative in Azeroth. You don't need to create an opportunity for war yourself for that.

[Villager720]

(Lorthemar even question whenever his people will follow him and not her)

Siding with Jaina to kill Sunreavers isn't the best plan to win hearts and minds.
I'm fairly sure Sylvanas purposefully set thalassian guards over Baine to undermine Lorthremar.

[ohwell]

I support Sylvanas but i will stick my neck out and say by 8.3 she will not be outed as a old god puppet cause she aint a old god puppet.

I mean it's been explicitly stated they can't affect undead so the only way is if she was tricked, which the writers won't do.

[PelinalWhitestrake]

Siding with Jaina to kill Sunreavers isn't the best plan to win hearts and minds.
I'm fairly sure Sylvanas purposefully set thalassian guards over Baine to undermine Lorthremar.

All of sylvanas plan is mostly trying to make the population seeing those undermining them as "worse than Garrosh", when this will end up backfiring badly once the dirt on her comes into light, and she escapes once her main plan fails by doing something that will force the union between both sides, which i still believe that it will be the death of an Leader who both sides respect.

I wont Be surprised if 8.3 raid isn't on the Dragon Isles, but in the Ruins of Lordaeron itself.

[Maxilian]

Siding with Jaina to kill Sunreavers isn't the best plan to win hearts and minds.
I'm fairly sure Sylvanas purposefully set thalassian guards over Baine to undermine Lorthremar.

That sounds quite interesting, if that was indeed Sylvanas plan and it pays out, well... i will have to give her a pat for the good plan, but the most important part is "Lets see how the whole Derek plans play out"

- - - Updated - - -

All of sylvanas plan is mostly trying to make the population seeing those undermining them as "worse than Garrosh", when this will end up backfiring badly once the dirt on her comes into light, and she escapes once her main plan fails by doing something that will force the union between both sides, which i still believe that it will be the death of an Leader who both sides respect.

Hope that does not mean Baine, cause... to be fair, right now he's not that loved by the Horde, Thrall on the other hand could be a good candidate for this.

[Villager720]

but the most important part is "Lets see how the whole Derek plans play out"

Oh the dude with Chekhov’s knife strapped to his back?

[KrakHed]

Oh the dude with Chekhov’s knife strapped to his back?

You mean the dude dressed the exact same way as his brother, who also has a knife strapped to his back?

[formerShandalay]

You mean the dude dressed the exact same way as his brother, who also has a knife strapped to his back?

But the knife did change its position during the cinematic. To me it seemed like he may have gripped it, when Jaina was angry and let it go again while speaking to her. Which would be a normal reaction, I guess.
They showed it, though, so I do think it's somewhat important. Otherwise they'd just have shown it in the exact same position both times you saw Derek's back.

[Super Dickmann]

But the knife did change its position during the cinematic. To me it seemed like he may have gripped it, when Jaina was angry and let it go again while speaking to her. Which would be a normal reaction, I guess.
They showed it, though, so I do think it's somewhat important. Otherwise they'd just have shown it in the exact same position both times you saw Derek's back.

I think this is being overthought. The only reason people think there's a plan involved is because of the initially unintended rebel route. The spade is a spade, much like with the assassins for Thrall. They wouldn't make Derek a sleeper because they're writing a happy story about love, reconciliation and how Baine is all that is best in the Horde. Baine inadvertedly fucking Jaina over and enabling Sylvanas doesn't jive with that, nor does Jaina losing more family and thus gaining a grudge. The unifaction doesn't benefit from this.

[formerShandalay]

I think this is being overthought. The only reason people think there's a plan involved is because of the initially unintended rebel route. The spade is a spade, much like with the assassins for Thrall. They wouldn't make Derek a sleeper because they're writing a happy story about love, reconciliation and how Baine is all that is best in the Horde. Baine inadvertedly fucking Jaina over and enabling Sylvanas doesn't jive with that, nor does Jaina losing more family and thus gaining a grudge. The unifaction doesn't benefit from this.

But as much as people and even Blizzard themselves point out 'parallels' between Sylvanas and Garrosh, this would make the perfect one. Even better because Jaina anticipated it and if it hits, fell for it anyway. Something like this would really drive home the difference between an 'amateur' and a real villain. (Even though I actually found Garrosh's trick really unexpected and smart in Tides of War. I mean, the fact that it was an actual trick was what I found unexpected). If this goes nowhere, Sylvanas is the amateur, not Garrosh.

[Super Dickmann]

But as much as people and even Blizzard themselves point out 'parallels' between Sylvanas and Garrosh, this would make the perfect one. Even better because Jaina anticipated it and if it hits, fell for it anyway. Something like this would really drive home the difference between an 'amateur' and a real villain. (Even though I actually found Garrosh's trick really unexpected and smart in Tides of War. I mean, the fact that it was an actual trick was what I found unexpected). If this goes nowhere, Sylvanas is the amateur, not Garrosh.

Garrosh is more competent than Sylvanas in his stint as Warchief on all fields except PR, I think that's pretty much inarguable. Garrosh was winning until 5.3, had an actually understandable goal and motive and had said motive presented to us from the start from an out of story view instead of stringing us along to reveal nothing. When Garrosh had a leader assassinated he ensured he'd be isolated in a cave, checked his capacity to betray him and then set people with a weapon specific to him to kill him. He also did so on grounds that even Baine was unable to argue against. Sylvanas sent two morons where an entire battalion failed on a guy uninvolved in anything for no reason.

This only stands to change if Sylvanas actually achieves her ulterior goal successfully since then the dog's breakfast she's made of the war effort would at least only reflect poorly on her stay in the position rather than on her brains.

[formerShandalay]

Garrosh is more competent than Sylvanas in his stint as Warchief on all fields except PR, I think that's pretty much inarguable. Garrosh was winning until 5.3, had an actually understandable goal and motive and had said motive presented to us from the start from an out of story view instead of stringing us along to reveal nothing. When Garrosh had a leader assassinated he ensured he'd be isolated in a cave, checked his capacity to betray him and then set people with a weapon specific to him to kill him. He also did so on grounds that even Baine was unable to argue against. Sylvanas sent two morons where an entire battalion failed on a guy uninvolved in anything for no reason.

This only stands to change if Sylvanas actually achieves her ulterior goal successfully since then the dog's breakfast she's made of the war effort would at least only reflect poorly on her stay in the position rather than on her brains.

I can't really argue with that, which is why I hope that Blizz show why all of this 'blunder' and 'losing' was necessary at the end. I mean, from their own words Sylvanas is supposed to have a plan and also be smart and they can't have missed the fact that all of her plans misfired so far. They wrote it that way themselves.
But I guess, we won't know until we actually get to see it. And if that was worth all the effort of 'losing' or if everything would have worked out fine if she'd just won in the first place.^^

[Super Dickmann]

I can't really argue with that, which is why I hope that Blizz show why all of this 'blunder' and 'losing' was necessary at the end. I mean, from their own words Sylvanas is supposed to have a plan and also be smart and they can't have missed the fact that all of her plans misfired so far. They wrote it that way themselves.
But I guess, we won't know until we actually get to see it. And if that was worth all the effort of 'losing' or if everything would have worked out fine if she'd just won in the first place.^^

Sylvanas would appear leagues more competent if the loyalist questline didn't exist, which is likely why they went ahead and added it given their systematic attempt to assassinate this character. No loyalist questline means no enabling Baine's escape twice, means no killing her own troops to benefit her enemies and then intentionally letting them go from a failed trap and no letting known enemies of the state traips around with no problem. Take all those actions away and her main act of monumental stupidity will have been sending assassins after Thrall for zero reason rather than cratering her plans for zero reason.

Mind, it's not all loss, but even from a standpoint of extending the war for as long as humanly possible the fact that she only manages due to the Alliance feeling bad for the Zandalari already disqualifies her as being remotely capable. She only redeems herself somewhat as someone with intelligence for arranging the 8.2 opening trap and evening things out between the factions again, but that's an opportunity that exists because of her enemy, not because of her superior planning.

[formerShandalay]

Sylvanas would appear leagues more competent if the loyalist questline didn't exist, which is likely why they went ahead and added it given their systematic attempt to assassinate this character. No loyalist questline means no enabling Baine's escape twice, means no killing her own troops to benefit her enemies and then intentionally letting them go from a failed trap and no letting known enemies of the state traips around with no problem. Take all those actions away and her main act of monumental stupidity will have been sending assassins after Thrall for zero reason rather than cratering her plans for zero reason.

Mind, it's not all loss, but even from a standpoint of extending the war for as long as humanly possible the fact that she only manages due to the Alliance feeling bad for the Zandalari already disqualifies her as being remotely capable. She only redeems herself somewhat as someone with intelligence for arranging the 8.2 opening trap and evening things out between the factions again, but that's an opportunity that exists because of her enemy, not because of her superior planning.

The loyalist questline throws some things into question, sure, but if we assume that the way it turns out is how she wanted it to go and not some 'accident', because some traitors ruined her plans, it still makes sense.
If you take the traitor route in the Saurfang questline, she clearly doesn't believe you that you escaped and she knows anyway, because if you had listened to your orders, you'd have returned and known nothing about the Dark Rangers finding Saurfang in that hut. So even if the loyalist questline didn't exist, from then on she works under the assumption that the 'champion' is a traitor to her and everything she tells them to do about Saurfang or any other traitor will be planned accordingly. Which in my opinion means, she left Derek hanging in that room for all to see and to spur Baine into action, knowing full well the 'traitor champion' would go along with it. If you see the ingame cinematic in Stormsong valley as a traitor, she looks at you before she looks at Zelling (if you see it as a loyalist she looks at you too of course, but it doesn't feel the same. And at the time the cinematic was planned there sure wasn't supposed to be a loyalist standing there ^^).

But whatever we think of this, the only thing that actually makes a difference in the end is if that plan of hers gives her a bigger 'win' than simply roflstomping the world from the beginning without 'weeding out the disloyal' in the process. If it turns out that had she simply played it safe, gone with Saurfang's plan instead of burning the tree and blowing up Undercity and making everyone believe she actually had their best interests at heart before ripping their souls out and turning them undead (after the Alliance of course), then I'll concede... she is stupid. If she gains anything from her version of doing things apart from world domination and ... I don't know whatever other power she is after, then she is smarter than it seemed.

[Phuongvi]

I would doubt Talanji will side with the alliance, who just killed her father, but it Warcraft I guess its already forgotten

[Dellis0991]

Are you implying that Shaw and Gallywyx came to an agreement, with their agents both working in Silithus and agreed to introduce Azerite to their respective leaders, to instigate a war, while they both sit back and make profits off it?

*sweats profusely* I said too much...I must go!

[Verdugo]

I can't really argue with that, which is why I hope that Blizz show why all of this 'blunder' and 'losing' was necessary at the end. I mean, from their own words Sylvanas is supposed to have a plan and also be smart and they can't have missed the fact that all of her plans misfired so far. They wrote it that way themselves.
But I guess, we won't know until we actually get to see it. And if that was worth all the effort of 'losing' or if everything would have worked out fine if she'd just won in the first place.^^

Did you play Diablo 3? Azmodan was described as this master tactician of hell legions. His tactics in the game consisted of bumrushing everything with demons and telling you exactly what is he going to do next.
Or Belial, Lord of Lies, who is such a bad liar that not even your dumbass main character who kills the true hero of the story (who is voiced by Steve Blum, if there was any doubt) is fooled.

What Blizzard thinks and what Blizzard does are two completely different things.

[Super Dickmann]

If you take the traitor route in the Saurfang questline, she clearly doesn't believe you that you escaped and she knows anyway, because if you had listened to your orders, you'd have returned and known nothing about the Dark Rangers finding Saurfang in that hut. So even if the loyalist questline didn't exist, from then on she works under the assumption that the 'champion' is a traitor to her and everything she tells them to do about Saurfang or any other traitor will be planned accordingly. Which in my opinion means, she left Derek hanging in that room for all to see and to spur Baine into action, knowing full well the 'traitor champion' would go along with it. If you see the ingame cinematic in Stormsong valley as a traitor, she looks at you before she looks at Zelling (if you see it as a loyalist she looks at you too of course, but it doesn't feel the same. And at the time the cinematic was planned there sure wasn't supposed to be a loyalist standing there ^^).

The Derek plan as a whole was poorly executed on all levels. Genuinely the only steelman that can be found for it is if it was intentionally shit to weed out traitors as you suggest, but it's one of those things that can't be detached from it's out of story purpose. Namely, it exists so Sylvanas can alienate a portion of the leadership and then have the plan fail to allow Baine more screen time so he can be groomed into a commanding role. It's made worse by it being cast as her trump card after losing the fleet and having next to no appearances in the story. I still believe there's no real twist here, but again, if we only go by the traitor story, then she's only moderately retarded because of the Derek plan rather than being on about the same intellectual plain as Baine in her rampant self-sabotage. Except instead of going "muh honor" as her totem crushes a Horde soldier's spinal column to benefit the Alliance, it's "all according to plan" as she instructs her henchmen to kill her own troops so that a revolution against her can be initiated.

But whatever we think of this, the only thing that actually makes a difference in the end is if that plan of hers gives her a bigger 'win' than simply roflstomping the world from the beginning without 'weeding out the disloyal' in the process. If it turns out that had she simply played it safe, gone with Saurfang's plan instead of burning the tree and blowing up Undercity and making everyone believe she actually had their best interests at heart before ripping their souls out and turning them undead (after the Alliance of course), then I'll concede... she is stupid. If she gains anything from her version of doing things apart from world domination and ... I don't know whatever other power she is after, then she is smarter than it seemed.

I don't have particular issues with either how the Undercity thing went or how it was set up with the tree as regards Sylvanas' brains. She didn't fail there because she's stupid but because she's underpowered and Jaina's all purpose plot insulation who's both unstoppable and invulnerable. Ditto sacrificing a small fleet to take out a much larger fleet is also fine. But until we know what she actually sent Nathanos out with the knaifu to do and if it actually pays dividends then it's still so much fluff since her delay in having Baine executed, complete lack of PR selling on what should be the easiest guy possible to have his character assassinated to the Horde public and the entire Derek fiasco really bring her down in terms of ability.