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  1. #1

    Romeo and Juliet Scenario

    Based on the idea of doing a selfless act for another, have you known yourself or anyone else to have done something self-sacrificing for someone they cared about? Would you, personally, ever do something like that for someone you loved? It doesn't have to be for someone romantic. Further than that, it's easy to say you will, have you ever actually done something like that, even when it wasn't easy, and may have even been a worse idea to do so compared to not doing so?

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    Banned Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pungent Reek View Post
    Based on the idea of doing a selfless act for another, have you known yourself or anyone else to have done something self-sacrificing for someone they cared about?
    Uh...*looks at the thread title*

    Romeo and Juliet
    self-sacrificing
    I've got some bad news for you chief.

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    The Unstoppable Force zenkai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pungent Reek View Post
    Based on the idea of doing a selfless act for another, have you known yourself or anyone else to have done something self-sacrificing for someone they cared about? Would you, personally, ever do something like that for someone you loved? It doesn't have to be for someone romantic. Further than that, it's easy to say you will, have you ever actually done something like that, even when it wasn't easy, and may have even been a worse idea to do so compared to not doing so?
    Self sacrificing? You mean, thinking someone is dead so you pussy out because you don't want to cope with your feelings? That's not self sacrificing. Self sacrificing is when you give your life to save another.
    For some people, everything is a moral question. If you agree with them, you are virtuous. If you don't, you are a monster.
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    This thread needs a vial of poison and a happy dagger and be put down before it gets worse.
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  5. #5
    I don't know, I once spent most of my savings on stuff that a girl I fancied wanted, I'd say thats selfless given that I needed the money to get some horribly damaged molars fixed, so I choose to live in pain for a few weeks just because I wanted to be kind to someone I liked.

    I would never do that again though, I am already down two teeth out of my 32 and I'd rather not lose any more.

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    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pungent Reek View Post
    Based on the idea of doing a selfless act for another, have you known yourself or anyone else to have done something self-sacrificing for someone they cared about? Would you, personally, ever do something like that for someone you loved? It doesn't have to be for someone romantic. Further than that, it's easy to say you will, have you ever actually done something like that, even when it wasn't easy, and may have even been a worse idea to do so compared to not doing so?
    Romeo and Juliet isn't about self-sacrifice. It has two core themes.

    The first is that feuds breed disaster.

    The second is that teenagers are horny, emotional morons.

    It is not a romance. Romeo and Juliet is not a love story. They knew each other for three days, and Romeo was already betrothed to another girl he was SUPER into, at the start of the play. You're not supposed to sympathise with the title characters. You're supposed to see them as blithering idiots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    This thread needs a vial of poison and a happy dagger and be put down before it gets worse.
    Well played.

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    Banned Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Romeo and Juliet isn't about self-sacrifice. It has two core themes.

    The first is that feuds breed disaster.

    The second is that teenagers are horny, emotional morons.

    It is not a romance. Romeo and Juliet is not a love story. They knew each other for three days, and Romeo was already betrothed to another girl he was SUPER into, at the start of the play. You're not supposed to sympathise with the title characters. You're supposed to see them as blithering idiots.
    Would you define R+J as an idiot plot, strictly speaking?

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    It's a Bojack Horseman story. The main cast is terrible people who should never be emulated.
    O Flora, of the moon, of the dream. O Little ones, O fleeting will of the ancients. Let the hunter be safe. Let them find comfort. And let this dream, their captor, Foretell a pleasant awakening

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Would you define R+J as an idiot plot, strictly speaking?
    Not precisely; the term's usually used when the main characters have to make stupid decisions to advance the plot, and the plot isn't really about them being stupid; the most obvious example is horror movies where people do things like "one of our friends is missing, we should split up and search the creepy house each by ourselves". The stupid decision allows the horror plot to continue.

    The entire point of R+J is that the two kids are idiots, because they're kids. It evades being an "idiot plot" because there are characters (Mercutio in particular) who try and help them be smart about this; their stupidity isn't a plot contrivance, it's a character decision, which makes a difference. Really, it's just those two that are idiots, which means that stupidity is the point of the tragedy.

    And seriously; Rosaline. She's a really important plot element. They wouldn't mention her at the beginning unless that mention mattered, because she doesn't ever show on stage and has no lines. There's only one reason to mention her, and that's to describe Romeo. Particularly, that he's totally lovesick over Rosaline, when all this kicks off. It's probably the single most critical element of the play, and it's right at the beginning, and so many people who love the play don't know who she is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kasuke06 View Post
    It's a Bojack Horseman story. The main cast is terrible people who should never be emulated.
    I feel this is unfair to Bojack Horseman. Everyone in that show is incredibly damaged, but they're also mostly trying to be better people, most of the time. Even if they slip, like, a lot. It's not like it's an animated Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    This thread needs a vial of poison and a happy dagger and be put down before it gets worse.
    This is pretty much the perfect response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not precisely; the term's usually used when the main characters have to make stupid decisions to advance the plot, and the plot isn't really about them being stupid; the most obvious example is horror movies where people do things like "one of our friends is missing, we should split up and search the creepy house each by ourselves". The stupid decision allows the horror plot to continue.

    The entire point of R+J is that the two kids are idiots, because they're kids. It evades being an "idiot plot" because there are characters (Mercutio in particular) who try and help them be smart about this; their stupidity isn't a plot contrivance, it's a character decision, which makes a difference. Really, it's just those two that are idiots, which means that stupidity is the point of the tragedy.

    And seriously; Rosaline. She's a really important plot element. They wouldn't mention her at the beginning unless that mention mattered, because she doesn't ever show on stage and has no lines. There's only one reason to mention her, and that's to describe Romeo. Particularly, that he's totally lovesick over Rosaline, when all this kicks off. It's probably the single most critical element of the play, and it's right at the beginning, and so many people who love the play don't know who she is.
    A Chekhov's Rosaline, one might say.

    I still maintain that it started out as a comedy and was eventually revised to its known incarnation. The elements of the traditional Shakespearean farce a la Midsummer are all there.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2019-05-21 at 04:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I feel this is unfair to Bojack Horseman. Everyone in that show is incredibly damaged, but they're also mostly trying to be better people, most of the time. Even if they slip, like, a lot. It's not like it's an animated Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
    Never seen a full episode of that show, but I've heard that the main cast are pretty much just plain actively terrible and stupid.
    O Flora, of the moon, of the dream. O Little ones, O fleeting will of the ancients. Let the hunter be safe. Let them find comfort. And let this dream, their captor, Foretell a pleasant awakening

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    Quote Originally Posted by kasuke06 View Post
    Never seen a full episode of that show, but I've heard that the main cast are pretty much just plain actively terrible and stupid.
    Well, take Bojack. He's a washed-up ex-sitcom star. He has substance abuse problems. He's incredibly self-involved. But he hates a lot of this about himself, and through a lot of the show, he's trying to change it. Usually tripping over his other issues in the process. He's incredibly flawed, but he's not celebrating his flaws as if they're virtues.

    It's probably the most "real" animated series I've ever seen.

  15. #15
    you know, if you are going to talk about tales of self sacrifice as a virtue... then at least bring up the right sort of tale. like little mermaid for example. and no, I don't mean Disney version, I mean Andersen version that it was based on.

    and that kinda segues into the fact that self sacrifice can take many forms. its not about just death, its about things as small as giving the last piece of something you absolutely adore, to a loved one who also adores it, because their happiness is that important to you. or things as large as living with a sick parent and taking care of them, setting aside your own personal goals for a while - becasue they need you.

    most people with someone they care about, have committed at least some acts of self sacrifice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Well, take Bojack. He's a washed-up ex-sitcom star. He has substance abuse problems. He's incredibly self-involved. But he hates a lot of this about himself, and through a lot of the show, he's trying to change it. Usually tripping over his other issues in the process. He's incredibly flawed, but he's not celebrating his flaws as if they're virtues.

    It's probably the most "real" animated series I've ever seen.
    but he either chickens out or gets distracted immediately every time. only time it seems like it'll stick so far in the series is the end of the current season, but we're all just waiting on the next one.
    O Flora, of the moon, of the dream. O Little ones, O fleeting will of the ancients. Let the hunter be safe. Let them find comfort. And let this dream, their captor, Foretell a pleasant awakening

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    Quote Originally Posted by kasuke06 View Post
    but he either chickens out or gets distracted immediately every time. only time it seems like it'll stick so far in the series is the end of the current season, but we're all just waiting on the next one.
    The thing is, people aren't always strong. That's one of the things that makes the show "real". If you've ever known someone with substance abuse issues, who was trying to get past it, the two steps forward slide three back thing is very real.

    My point is that the show knows the characters are flawed, and doesn't glorify those flaws. Those flaws are the source of all their problems, and those problems are often self-inflicted. But that's true of a lot of us.

  18. #18
    I've always viewed Romeo and Juliet as a satire on teen melodrama.

  19. #19
    As an antidote I recommend Erich Fromm's "The Art of Loving".

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Romeo and Juliet isn't about self-sacrifice. It has two core themes.

    The first is that feuds breed disaster.

    The second is that teenagers are horny, emotional morons.

    It is not a romance. Romeo and Juliet is not a love story. They knew each other for three days, and Romeo was already betrothed to another girl he was SUPER into, at the start of the play. You're not supposed to sympathise with the title characters. You're supposed to see them as blithering idiots.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Self sacrificing? You mean, thinking someone is dead so you pussy out because you don't want to cope with your feelings? That's not self sacrificing. Self sacrificing is when you give your life to save another.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Uh...*looks at the thread title*




    I've got some bad news for you chief.
    I know the plot to R+J, thanks. Kind of hard not to since it's mentioned a lot on the internet and in entertainment.

    One dies and the other kills themself because of it. No matter if it's stupid or not, it's still a sacrifice. Thanks for missing the point of my thread. Do you have anything real to contribute or would you like to nitpick everything else I did today, too?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think the responses to this thread are a very good case of seeing the forest for the trees.

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