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  1. #201
    I biggest complaint is the current view of the Federation. Corruption, abuse of power, hidden agenda... all of it makes for compelling entertainment but it's not Star Trek. Star Trek was a show about us overcoming those most damaging aspects of our collective growth. We are to see a better world in the future and work to achieve it. Not by any means possible but by being the example of what we want to be in the future. Star Trek is an Utopian fantasy not a Dystopian one... that is the problem with this new form of story telling. Yes outside forces could impact us but our compassion and ingenuity will allow us to overcome all outside threats and even turn former enemies into trusted friends. Being a show about exploration for the sake of discovering the unknown and bringing forth the values we hold dear into the greater universe... that is what Star Trek is about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    amazing first episode, i love seeing the future has changed and shows that a utopian future is not sustainable forever, TNG was almost to perfect in that regard. Seeing the effects of the dominion war and other events is great.
    When a franchise is turned over to hacks why not just take a dump on Roddenberry's chest and remove the spine of the franchise.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    When a franchise is turned over to hacks why not just take a dump on Roddenberry's chest and remove the spine of the franchise.
    Here here! Let's set a date!

  4. #204
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepr View Post
    What do you mean by seeing the effects of the dominion war? Did I miss something?
    This was mostly connected to TNG, Nemesis, Data and the Romulans.
    Anyway, looking forward to next episode.
    pre-Dominion War Starfleet was principally about Exploration, for at least the period between the 2290s and early 2370s. There were a couple of minor conflicts in there - the Cardassian Wars of the 2360s for example, but the decades-long isolationism of the Romulans and alliance with the Klingons lead to a what essentially amounted to a demilitarization compared to the late-TOS movie era. The Federation vastly increased in size in that span.

    But with the Borg incursions and the Dominion War, Starfleet militarized heavily. Ships became designed for combat. Weapons were retrofitted on older ships. THere was an aborted Starfleet coup. The war saw billions die and thousands of starships destroyed - easily the most destructive War the Federation ever fought by far. The Dominion War was by far the largest conflict in possibly thousands of years in the Alpha Quadrant. Fleet action of many hundreds of ships were a regular occurence. Nothing involving the Klingons or the Romulans remotely compared to that.

    Insurrection and Nemesis obliquely alluded to it - but the Federation was changing because of the War. The Starfleet of the late 2370s was not the Starfleet of the 2360s. And neither was the Federation. Even the Enterprise-E received a major weapons and defense upgrade between Insurrection and Nemesis. And that was after the Dominion War ended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    When a franchise is turned over to hacks why not just take a dump on Roddenberry's chest and remove the spine of the franchise.
    Roddenberry was mostly involved in TOS Season 1 and 2, the Animated Series, and TNG Season 1 and 2. He had minimal involvement in TOS Season 3, and was purspefully sidelines by the studio after TNG Season 2. With regards to the movies, he was involved in The Motion Picture, but again, sidelines for all the rest of the TOS film. In particular he did not like Star Trek VI, which he saw shortly before he died and regarded as, at best, apocryphal.

    He created the Star Trek idea, but most of the details and episodes and characterizations people love about Star Trek came from other people.

    Roddenberry was an idea guy, not an implementation guy.
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  5. #205
    The Federation only appeared Utopian because we only ever saw it from a starship's perspective. Every time we delved back to Earth, or saw Starfleet's higher ups, or even just had someone onboard who wasn't part of the crew, it was almost always rife with the same corruption and pettiness you see everywhere. DS9 really drove that home.

    And hell, out of all the series, the only one that came close to having a "perfect Utopia" was onboard the Enterprise-D during The Next Generation's run.

    People trying to say Roddenberry had the whole utopia thing from the start is outright laughable. Have they even watched the original series? I mean, even amongst the three best buddies of the galaxy, they were constantly being a racist cunt to Spock. Nevermind the admirals, starports, Mudd, quatloos, and so on and so forth.

  6. #206
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    I biggest complaint is the current view of the Federation. Corruption, abuse of power, hidden agenda... all of it makes for compelling entertainment but it's not Star Trek. Star Trek was a show about us overcoming those most damaging aspects of our collective growth. We are to see a better world in the future and work to achieve it. Not by any means possible but by being the example of what we want to be in the future. Star Trek is an Utopian fantasy not a Dystopian one... that is the problem with this new form of story telling. Yes outside forces could impact us but our compassion and ingenuity will allow us to overcome all outside threats and even turn former enemies into trusted friends. Being a show about exploration for the sake of discovering the unknown and bringing forth the values we hold dear into the greater universe... that is what Star Trek is about.
    The Federation falling short of its ideals and Admirals being corrupt as fuck is literally one of the oldest, and most reliable Star Trek tropes there is. It is a recurring plot element because it made the core cast, who uphold the ideals, seem heroic by comparison. But in all of Star Trek, there's seriously been a handful of good Admirals ever.

    With regards to the changes in storytelling style, that's just a "generational" thing. When Star Trek returned to TV in 1987, TOS fans had to deal with this thing that carried its name having a very different look and story telling style than TOS. It also played it very loose with continuity (it wasn't clear that TNG took place in 2366, instead of around 2310, until very late into Season 1, and the writers weren't quite sure either... "Next Generation" was literal for a time) and all the ships looked different and Picard was not like Kirk and there were no Vulcans.

    It was very different. But it was also the birth of "Generation 2 Star Trek", which spanned TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise and the movies from Star Trek V - Star Trek Nemesis.

    The TOS films, which began with the strange The Motion Picture, were revamped into a proto-"G2" model with Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock and Voyage Home (whose success lead to the order of TNG). With Star Trek V and Star Trek VI (particularly VI) you had TOS... "Generation 1 Star Trek", done with the creative sensibilities of the TNG era in most respects.

    You're seeing that again, here, with Picard. It wasn't clear at the time, but with two seasons of Discovery, Short Trek, Picard and soon Section 31, Discovery represents exactly what TNG was back in 1987... the start of "Generation 3 Star Trek". Done with a modern sensibility in storytelling and visuals. And sure plenty of things look different, but it's really exactly the same thing as what happened when TOS was implimented in a then modern style in the 1980s and 1990s. Picard is what you get when you reactivate TNG in that manner, with 2010s and 2020s style.

    I think that's fine. It's great to have these characters back for one last ride. The biggest creative mistake in retrospect was setting Discovery in the 2250s and not in 2399 or 2420 or something. With the Season 3 changes, it avoids most of its historic problems.

    Now we just need a Captain Pike on the Enterprise show.
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  7. #207
    - - - Updated - - -

    He created the Star Trek idea, but most of the details and episodes and characterizations people love about Star Trek came from other people.

    Roddenberry was an idea guy, not an implementation guy.[/QUOTE]

    Very true, but those who implemented his vision stuck to the basic spine of his story which was the utopian Federation future until JJ Abrams and Kutzman made it boom-boom yelling action space fighting.

  8. #208
    Overall a good start but i hated 3 things:

    -Kelvin timeline. Blehhhhhhhh. Just erase it.

    -Mandatory stupid kungfu action scenes and mindless shooting scenes.... in Star Trek... I laughed so hard when they visibly had to use a Picard stunt double just to make him run up on a stair

    -The Federation depicted as the evil willing to let 900 million people die.... because ... "they are the enemy" ... Yeah, just like the Klingons were and doing the honorable right thing won them over. But now suddenly the government is the nazi party. And for what? Patrick Stewart literally told in an interview it's there to reflect to the current american politics... aka "orange man bad". Roddenberry is spinning in his grave

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    Very true, but those who implemented his vision stuck to the basic spine of his story which was the utopian Federation future until JJ Abrams and Kutzman made it boom-boom yelling action space fighting.
    And yet again, we have someone who's clearly never watched any of the series. Literally any of them.

  10. #210
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    A good start. Having just finished DS9, this really feels like a Post-Dominion Federation. The secrets, double dealing and more ruthless attitude are in line with how they were acting, towards the end of the conflict. And in line with how the would probably have grown, given the fallout of a conflict as costly as the Dominion War proved to be.

    PStew was excellent. His rant during the interview was captivating. It may have been a few decades since Picard has been around, but he's still The Captain!

    Action was solid. A little heavy on the jump cuts, but I have a feeling most of that was to do with them trying to hide stunt doubles, which I guess is forgivable... kinda.

    The Crimson Chin seems like a decent actress. Not quite at Stewart's level, but not so far below it that she's offputting during their scenes together.

    Was good to see Data again, even if it was just in dreams...

    And that ending! Left me wanting more, for sure!
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  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Funkenstein View Post
    And yet again, we have someone who's clearly never watched any of the series. Literally any of them.
    You are "literally" completely wrong.

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    https://trekmovie.com/2013/07/01/the...-we-may-think/

  12. #212
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    Overall a good start but i hated 3 things:

    -Kelvin timeline. Blehhhhhhhh. Just erase it.
    It takes place in the Prime Timeline. The destruction of Romulus happened in the Prime Timeline.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    -Mandatory stupid kungfu action scenes and mindless shooting scenes.... in Star Trek... I laughed so hard when they visibly had to use a Picard stunt double just to make him run up on a stair
    Uh huh. I bet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    -The Federation depicted as the evil willing to let 900 million people die.... because ... "they are the enemy" ... Yeah, just like the Klingons were and doing the honorable right thing won them over. But now suddenly the government is the nazi party. And for what? Patrick Stewart literally told in an interview it's there to reflect to the current american politics... aka "orange man bad". Roddenberry is spinning in his grave
    That would barely be in the top 5 of "terrible things the Federation was willing to do". DS9 was literally 50% about this.


    And yes, "orange man bad". Really, really bad. The values of Trump and his cult are incompatible with the values of Star Trek and this show as written in direct response to that. Think this is new to Star Trek at all? TOS took on the political controversies of the 1960s head on. Roddenberry was no lover of Vietnam, nor Nixon. Some of the best episodes of TNG had twists on contemporary geopolitical events. And most of all DS9 was deeply enmeshed in the untrustworthiness of conventional authorities and institutions that was typical of 1990s entertainment (see: THe X-Files).

    Roddenberry would be very down with this. First of all he knew his audience liked action and adventure. Star Trek was a big part that to begin with. But his politics were emphatically a rejection of a certain set of premodern behaviors.

    And if Trump cultist want this to be another safe space television series for them that doesn't say what all honest people should - that they morally compromised themselves and are the villians in this story - they can watch something else. Because Patrick Stewart by his own words was motivated to make this series in direct response to the contemporary world.

    In case you haven't figured it out, the Romulan diaspora is an analogy for refugees. The Federation turning their back on them an analogy for US policy on that matter. The outlawing of synthetic research and suspicions of "synthetics' is a standin for racism, and the entire attitude of the Federation / Starfleet in 2399 in response to the attack on Mars in 2385 (a standin for 9/11) is, in a phrase "Federation First!". Isolationist. Regressive. Sound familiar? Historically the Federation is supposed to represent what the United States could be and in Star Trek Picard, it represents contemporary America in which the things that made us who we are have been abandoned for "America first" and all that crap.

    It's one of the most political shows on television. By design. Because that is the only scenario where Patrick Stewart wanted to come back. He even said he didn't want to put on the uniform again, except for brief flashbacks and things of that nature. Because while TNG was about living in a better world, this show is about earning our way back to one that fell from grace.

    Again, if that's not your thing - if you want straightforward low-rent Star Trek Voyager fare that doesn't challenge you much, you got netflix and 180 episodes of that.

    I for one, am extremely excited by a Star Trek show that isn't entirely about starships shooting starships, and lets great actors like Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner act in their iconic roles, challenging the modern world's ethical and moral decline by walking us through the decline of theirs.
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  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    And yes, "orange man bad". Really, really bad. The values of Trump and his cult are incompatible with the values of Star Trek and this show as written in direct response to that. Think this is new to Star Trek at all? TOS took on the political controversies of the 1960s head on. Roddenberry was no lover of Vietnam, nor Nixon. Some of the best episodes of TNG had twists on contemporary geopolitical events. And most of all DS9 was deeply enmeshed in the untrustworthiness of conventional authorities and institutions that was typical of 1990s entertainment (see: THe X-Files).

    Roddenberry would be very down with this. First of all he knew his audience liked action and adventure. Star Trek was a big part that to begin with. But his politics were emphatically a rejection of a certain set of premodern behaviors.

    And if Trump cultist want this to be another safe space television series for them that doesn't say what all honest people should - that they morally compromised themselves and are the villians in this story - they can watch something else. Because Patrick Stewart by his own words was motivated to make this series in direct response to the contemporary world.

    In case you haven't figured it out, the Romulan diaspora is an analogy for refugees. The Federation turning their back on them an analogy for US policy on that matter. The outlawing of synthetic research and suspicions of "synthetics' is a standin for racism, and the entire attitude of the Federation / Starfleet in 2399 in response to the attack on Mars in 2385 (a standin for 9/11) is, in a phrase "Federation First!". Isolationist. Regressive. Sound familiar? Historically the Federation is supposed to represent what the United States could be and in Star Trek Picard, it represents contemporary America in which the things that made us who we are have been abandoned for "America first" and all that crap.

    It's one of the most political shows on television. By design. Because that is the only scenario where Patrick Stewart wanted to come back. He even said he didn't want to put on the uniform again, except for brief flashbacks and things of that nature. Because while TNG was about living in a better world, this show is about earning our way back to one that fell from grace.

    Again, if that's not your thing - if you want straightforward low-rent Star Trek Voyager fare that doesn't challenge you much, you got netflix and 180 episodes of that.

    I for one, am extremely excited by a Star Trek show that isn't entirely about starships shooting starships, and lets great actors like Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner act in their iconic roles, challenging the modern world's ethical and moral decline by walking us through the decline of theirs.
    Find a doctor. Your avatar and picture tell everything we need to know. I don't give a F about your president and your rant. I just don't want your politics in my scifi. And funny thing, Voyager is my favorite. Enjoy your empty brain dead virtue signalling.

    Flaming isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2020-01-25 at 02:53 AM.

  14. #214
    The show has long started to move away from this "utopia Federation idea", this was especially clear in DS9.
    Sometimes you have to put aside your ideals, as is shown so brilliantly in the episode In The Pale Moonlight, which is probably still the best thing that ever happened in all Trek. DS9 was simply the best, most mature Trek anyway (IMO of course).

    The conflicts with the Dominion, Borg and the Nemesis events have probably changed The Federation/Starfleet a lot.... but with regards to the Romulan tragedy: they were about to rescue them from a supernova with a giant rescue fleet, then apparently the synthetics destroyed the entire rescue fleet and factory on Mars.
    So maybe the rescue mission was called off simply because there was no way to recover from that in time...?
    The circumstances aren't entirely clear yet, so we can't know exactly why Picard is so angry at Starfleet and their decision to call off the rescue mission....
    Last edited by deepr; 2020-01-24 at 04:43 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    Find a doctor. Your avatar and picture tell everything we need to know. I don't give a F about your president and your rant. I just don't want your politics in my scifi. And funny thing, Voyager is my favorite. Enjoy your empty brain dead virtue signalling.
    Current politics have been part of Star Trek since it began... maybe it’s just not the franchise for you. And he knows your favorite is Voyager. Hence him telling you to rewatch it genius.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    100:1 odds that he wont
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Okay. I'll stop sharing my views.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    When a franchise is turned over to hacks why not just take a dump on Roddenberry's chest and remove the spine of the franchise.
    like the real world the future doesn't stay the same... the events of the dominion war, a borg invasion the destruction of Romulus.... it would be silly to think if those events didn't affect starfleet and the federation... its why i'm enjoying it so far, as so often books/movies/shows have some great battle or calamity but fail to show the long term affects of said event... this show seems to be showing that and i love it for it.
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  17. #217
    I quite liked the first episode, could be interesting. I don't agree with some of their views, but it's still nice to see some cool fight scenes, futuristic cities and spacestuff.. not ot mention see what happened after next generation

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    I biggest complaint is the current view of the Federation. Corruption, abuse of power, hidden agenda... all of it makes for compelling entertainment but it's not Star Trek. Star Trek was a show about us overcoming those most damaging aspects of our collective growth. We are to see a better world in the future and work to achieve it. Not by any means possible but by being the example of what we want to be in the future. Star Trek is an Utopian fantasy not a Dystopian one... that is the problem with this new form of story telling. Yes outside forces could impact us but our compassion and ingenuity will allow us to overcome all outside threats and even turn former enemies into trusted friends. Being a show about exploration for the sake of discovering the unknown and bringing forth the values we hold dear into the greater universe... that is what Star Trek is about.
    That is generally the vibe true, but even in TNG you had obviously corrupt people working for the Federation.

    Remember the episode Drumhead? Measure of a man?

    I think the Federation in Picard is still a benevolent institution, but like all institutions it is not incorruptible. And after the Dominion war and the Borg it's not a surprise that they have been affected. So really I think this is a very natural story development. And Picard is here to save the day, I'm sure.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2020-01-24 at 05:39 PM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    TOS took on the political controversies of the 1960s head on.
    I've got a friend who's a huge Original Series/Next Gen fan and he's constantly complaining of "Blatant SJW Agendas" in today's shows, particularly with calling out Nazis and Fascism.

    And yet, he got mad at me when I called out that the Original Series literally had a story set on a planet full of Nazis. >_<

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    Find a doctor. Your avatar and picture tell everything we need to know. I don't give a F about your president and your rant. I just don't want your politics in my scifi. And funny thing, Voyager is my favorite. Enjoy your empty brain dead virtue signalling.
    99% of ALL Sci-Fi has been a reflection of current events, ESPECIALLY STAR TREK!!!

    I mean, shit, one of Next Gen's more popular episodes - the one where Picard lives a whole virtual life on another planet - was an episode warning about Global Warming! >_<

    I think your problem isn't that you don't want Politics in Sci-Fi, it's that you want to return to an age where real-life politics didn't matter to you, so you didn't ever notice it in your Sci-Fi shows when you were younger.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by mvaliz View Post
    99% of ALL Sci-Fi has been a reflection of current events, ESPECIALLY STAR TREK!!!
    It keeps being said, but they keep ignoring it.

    I can pretty much guarantee that if no one had ever read that interview, they wouldn't have made any connection to the things said in this episode and Trump. The closest parallel so far is the refugee economic migrant crisis in Europe...but hardly anyone talks about that anymore (except to dogwhistle the "collapse of Western civilization").



    But speaking of the Romulans, I wonder if the choice to dial back their alien features (green-tinted skin and heavy eyebrow ridges) and make them look more like Vulcans was a deliberate choice for plot reasons, or just an artistic/cost saving one.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2020-01-24 at 06:32 PM.

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