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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Sure, but something 100 light years away would have quite some time to mobilize a response. In a world where we were dealing with that kind of blast radius, Picard would still be organizing relief efforts. This show isn't anywhere near that technical. The plotline more or less reminds me of the CW shows my SO watches.
    Indeed. What people seem to fail take into account is just how fast travel is in Star Trek. Even at Warp 5, you're over 200 times the speed of light. So you could make hundreds of trips with a single ship. The numbers vary depending on source, but the Enterprise had a max capacity of 15,000 people, and a warbird is almsot double the size. A single warbird could evacuate over 15 million people from a nearby system.

  2. #582
    Revenge is sweet

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    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I see it more that modern Trek is far less naive than TOS was. And really; Discovery and Picard haven't done anything that TNG/DS9/Voyager/Enterprise didn't set solid groundwork for. Particularly TNG/DS9; both of those series took pains to demonstrate that the Federation was starting to rot from the top down, due to corruption and such.
    I think a lot of that is a product of the times as well. TOS was a pre-Watergate / post-Kennedy creation. It still had Kennedy-esque and Space-Age optimism about government as a postive force. TNG's last 5 seasons (when the show started to build an organized internal continuity and do what we'd call "world building" today) was a post-Watergate, post-Reagan "government is the problem" creation. An DS9 even more so. A good contemporary is the X-Files. You couldn't have made a show like the X-Files in the 1960s and the revival a few years back (which I happened to like) made some very keen observations how many of the fears of about government exemplified in the show in the 1990s had come true by the mid-2010s. X-Files, like TNG and DS9 only work in a world where the heroes of the show are moral exemplars who represent the best of ideals, against the incompetence and corruption of government.

    There was an interested contrast drawn a few years back between American blockbuster action movies and the Chinese blockbuster "the Wandering Earth". Many American blockbusters adopt the trope that the X-Files or Star Trek did in that morally upright people, often times everymen, defy some kind of power structure or bureaucracy to single handedly win the day. The Wandering Earth, however, emphasized the correctness and force multiplying nature of the state and how the right course was to sidestep corrupt individuals and be, in effect, the optimal cog in the machine. It showed bureaucracy and the state as highly competent.

    I do think though we need to be a bit careful with TNG and it's world building. It was a gradual thing. DS9 and Voyager were built on a very defined world that TNG built, but TNG was largely an series of TOS-style morality plays with little actual continuity until somewhere in the third season. Major details weren't even worked out until the fifth season. The first episode to feature the Bajorans for example "Ensign Ro", not only called them something different ("the Bajora") and said they were conquered for over a century, but until the script was re-written, their conquerors were going to be the Romulans, not the Cardassians. It was only swapped because producers thought the Romulans were overused lately. Season 1 is the worst offender of course. My favorite bit of Star Trek trivia is that until the last episode of Season 1 (the Neutral Zone), the year TNG took place (the 2360s) was not defined to the show or even the production staff. For most of Season 1, TNG was literally written as "the next generation", as in, somewhere in the 2310s. That it was 50 years after that, and 80 years after the then-most-recent TOS movies was a very late development.

    SO when we see in the first few seasons episodes about the corruption of Starfleet or admirals or the federation, it wasn't doing it the way that Star Trek would do it in late TNG or DS9 or shows today in the sense of setting up a larger arc about events in an fiction world. Rather it was very much a one off to tell a morality play that pitted moral heroes against an immoral adversary, much as TOS did. But in the context of TNG, it was at that time, their own government and not some malevolent alien race or god-like alien.

  4. #584
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I think a lot of that is a product of the times as well. TOS was a pre-Watergate / post-Kennedy creation. It still had Kennedy-esque and Space-Age optimism about government as a postive force. TNG's last 5 seasons (when the show started to build an organized internal continuity and do what we'd call "world building" today) was a post-Watergate, post-Reagan "government is the problem" creation. An DS9 even more so. A good contemporary is the X-Files. You couldn't have made a show like the X-Files in the 1960s and the revival a few years back (which I happened to like) made some very keen observations how many of the fears of about government exemplified in the show in the 1990s had come true by the mid-2010s. X-Files, like TNG and DS9 only work in a world where the heroes of the show are moral exemplars who represent the best of ideals, against the incompetence and corruption of government.

    There was an interested contrast drawn a few years back between American blockbuster action movies and the Chinese blockbuster "the Wandering Earth". Many American blockbusters adopt the trope that the X-Files or Star Trek did in that morally upright people, often times everymen, defy some kind of power structure or bureaucracy to single handedly win the day. The Wandering Earth, however, emphasized the correctness and force multiplying nature of the state and how the right course was to sidestep corrupt individuals and be, in effect, the optimal cog in the machine. It showed bureaucracy and the state as highly competent.

    I do think though we need to be a bit careful with TNG and it's world building. It was a gradual thing. DS9 and Voyager were built on a very defined world that TNG built, but TNG was largely an series of TOS-style morality plays with little actual continuity until somewhere in the third season. Major details weren't even worked out until the fifth season. The first episode to feature the Bajorans for example "Ensign Ro", not only called them something different ("the Bajora") and said they were conquered for over a century, but until the script was re-written, their conquerors were going to be the Romulans, not the Cardassians. It was only swapped because producers thought the Romulans were overused lately. Season 1 is the worst offender of course. My favorite bit of Star Trek trivia is that until the last episode of Season 1 (the Neutral Zone), the year TNG took place (the 2360s) was not defined to the show or even the production staff. For most of Season 1, TNG was literally written as "the next generation", as in, somewhere in the 2310s. That it was 50 years after that, and 80 years after the then-most-recent TOS movies was a very late development.

    SO when we see in the first few seasons episodes about the corruption of Starfleet or admirals or the federation, it wasn't doing it the way that Star Trek would do it in late TNG or DS9 or shows today in the sense of setting up a larger arc about events in an fiction world. Rather it was very much a one off to tell a morality play that pitted moral heroes against an immoral adversary, much as TOS did. But in the context of TNG, it was at that time, their own government and not some malevolent alien race or god-like alien.
    We also really need to see the weak points for what they are, rather than blindly mythologizing the good stuff alone.

    One of these days, I'm gonna re-watch all of TNG, and I'm gonna take notes on just how many times "I dunno, shoot some tachyons out of the deflector dish at it, maybe" was the solution. Despite there being no logic to "why tachyons", that deflector dishes don't shoot things, etc. Most of the time, the tech stuff in Star Trek is just gobbledygook hand-waving by writers who don't give a shit about that stuff, and just want to write a shallow allegory.

    Which is fine; that's Star Trek. But Star Trek isn't on par with works like Asimov's Foundation series, the ecological studies in Dune, or even the complex societal commentary of some of Heinlein's better works, like Stranger in a Strange Land. It's popcorn TV sci-fi with monsters in rubber suits. Don't overestimate how smart Trek actually is. It's important as societal commentary, in terms of the breadth of its popularity, and it tried to aim smarter than most blasters-and-rocketships sci-fi drek of TOS' era. It's cousins are stuff like Doctor Who and Stargate, and it really doesn't stand out that much from that crowd, if you take the nostalgia blinders off.

    Edit: And if it's not clear, I like Doctor Who and Stargate. This isn't an attack. Just a recognition that Star Trek has always been inconsistent (due to writers not having solid "bibles" and little long-term planning, in TOS, TNG, Voyager, and a lot of DS9), and has always used shortcuts to sound smart when it's actually just hand-waving the thinking part.
    Last edited by Endus; 2020-03-16 at 01:53 AM.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    Plausible.

    However... IF that is the only connection between the two series, how is Picard "setting up some backstory for season 3 of Discovery" (direct quote)
    Because Control is going to wind up in the distant pass where the events in Picard took place, and Discovery is going to demonstrate how it happened in season 3.

    So fucking awful.

  6. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Funkenstein View Post
    Because Control is going to wind up in the distant pass where the events in Picard took place, and Discovery is going to demonstrate how it happened in season 3.

    So fucking awful.
    A: We still have no evidence for that. The only possible connection is that both Picard and Discovery featured Mind Melds, that forsaw apocalypse. Spock showing Control wiping out humanity, and Oh showing Synth's doing the same. However... since a major plot point of Picard is that every time synthetic life gets too powerful, something turns up to cause chaos, there's every chance this is just a knowing nod to that. Especially as the whole point of Disco S2's ending was to take Control out of the timeline, to keep it away from people. Would make the whole ending of season 2, and the time jump, rather pointless if they did that.

    B: The most important part. Picard has told it's own story. It's got a self contained plot about Synths, and the perils of super advanced artificial life forms. How is it "So fucking awful" if there's a connection between the two shows? Since both can be viewed in a vacuum and understood, why is it a bad thing that watching both will slightly broaden your understanding of the overall plot?
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  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    X-Files, like TNG and DS9 only work in a world where the heroes of the show are moral exemplars who represent the best of ideals, against the incompetence and corruption of government.
    While I agree that the main characters of the various Trek shows are "moral exemplars" I think you might be overstating the incompetence and corruption of government. Yes there is some corruption within the Federation it is generally forthright and the corrupt elements are brought about individuals. Those moral exemplars are products of the Federation, they're not aberrations of a corrupt society.

    Consider Wesley. He's often castigated as some know everything "Mary Sue". Personally, I think he's a gifted individual who is afforded the opportunity by his society to develop those gifts. His biggest fault is sometimes the writing staff wasn't always up to properly portraying such a character. Contrast this with Data. Data is the real "Gary Stu". We tend to ignore that because Data was often better written and Brent Spiner was generally funner to watch than Wil Wheaton.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Which is fine; that's Star Trek. But Star Trek isn't on par with works like Asimov's Foundation series, the ecological studies in Dune, or even the complex societal commentary of some of Heinlein's better works, like Stranger in a Strange Land. It's popcorn TV sci-fi with monsters in rubber suits. Don't overestimate how smart Trek actually is. It's important as societal commentary, in terms of the breadth of its popularity, and it tried to aim smarter than most blasters-and-rocketships sci-fi drek of TOS' era. It's cousins are stuff like Doctor Who and Stargate, and it really doesn't stand out that much from that crowd, if you take the nostalgia blinders off.
    Star Trek TOS is the 1956 film The Forbidden Planet fleshed out into a TV series. Go watch that film. You can see the setup is what we'd think of Trek today. It plays like a Trek episode. Basically, in 1956, you needed a motion picture budget to produce something on the level of Trek TOS. By 1966, it was feasible to make an entire TV series like TFP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  9. #589
    Tos and Tng are the only st TV shows worth anything ( that I've watched).

    Ds9 : sooooo boring. Quit watching after season 2.

    Watched about half the first season of voy. Bored

    Enterprise: high hopes going down steadily and through season 1. Last one I saw was season 1 finale. Show was a mess, so many problems

    I can't speak to Picard or Discovery. Been disappointed too many times. And I'm not paying for another streaming service

    Liked all the movies. Don't get the hate for the JJverse

  10. #590
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phanius View Post
    Ds9 : sooooo boring. Quit watching after season 2.
    I recently finished binge watching all of DS9. Trust me, it gets A LOT better, as the series goes on. The first season is pretty slow, but some of the greatest shows off all time had rough first seasons, so we can give DS9 a break.
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  11. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    I recently finished binge watching all of DS9. Trust me, it gets A LOT better, as the series goes on. The first season is pretty slow, but some of the greatest shows off all time had rough first seasons, so we can give DS9 a break.
    Both DS9 and Enterprise got a lot better in later seasons... DS9 has that Shakespearean feel that the newer star streks downt have..

    Surprisingly, my fave character from both shows is the same actor..

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollhammer View Post
    Both DS9 and Enterprise got a lot better in later seasons... DS9 has that Shakespearean feel that the newer star streks downt have..

    Surprisingly, my fave character from both shows is the same actor..
    All-in-all Jeffrey Combs has played an astounding 9 different roles in various Star Trek shows/media.

    They should give him a role in Picard and then kill him off in some horrendous way to teach him for being such a greedy male actor.

  13. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollhammer View Post
    Both DS9 and Enterprise got a lot better in later seasons...
    Never actually watched Enterprise. How would you say it ranks, in the Trek halls?
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  14. #594
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    Never actually watched Enterprise. How would you say it ranks, in the Trek halls?
    With the allowance of a couple rocky seasons to start (which is true of DS9 and TNG, anyway), I'd personally but Enterprise somewhere above Voyager but below DS9/TNG. Not sure where I'd rank it relative to Discovery, yet; I'm giving Discovery some leeway but it found its footing in S2 pretty well, IMO.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    We also really need to see the weak points for what they are, rather than blindly mythologizing the good stuff alone.

    One of these days, I'm gonna re-watch all of TNG, and I'm gonna take notes on just how many times "I dunno, shoot some tachyons out of the deflector dish at it, maybe" was the solution. Despite there being no logic to "why tachyons", that deflector dishes don't shoot things, etc. Most of the time, the tech stuff in Star Trek is just gobbledygook hand-waving by writers who don't give a shit about that stuff, and just want to write a shallow allegory.

    Which is fine; that's Star Trek. But Star Trek isn't on par with works like Asimov's Foundation series, the ecological studies in Dune, or even the complex societal commentary of some of Heinlein's better works, like Stranger in a Strange Land. It's popcorn TV sci-fi with monsters in rubber suits. Don't overestimate how smart Trek actually is. It's important as societal commentary, in terms of the breadth of its popularity, and it tried to aim smarter than most blasters-and-rocketships sci-fi drek of TOS' era. It's cousins are stuff like Doctor Who and Stargate, and it really doesn't stand out that much from that crowd, if you take the nostalgia blinders off.

    Edit: And if it's not clear, I like Doctor Who and Stargate. This isn't an attack. Just a recognition that Star Trek has always been inconsistent (due to writers not having solid "bibles" and little long-term planning, in TOS, TNG, Voyager, and a lot of DS9), and has always used shortcuts to sound smart when it's actually just hand-waving the thinking part.

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki...onal_deflector

    They have remained pretty consistent with Deflector Arrays.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    One of these days, I'm gonna re-watch all of TNG, and I'm gonna take notes on just how many times "I dunno, shoot some tachyons out of the deflector dish at it, maybe" was the solution.
    By it's nature the deflector dish is effectively a ranged weapon. Modifying it to shoot something other than whatever it original shot to push space debris out of the way whilst moving isn't an exactly insurmountable thing. Think, the beams have to be strong enough and high powered enough to move things quickly out of the way whilst the ship is moving at velocity. Changing what it beams out isn't a crazy thing.

  17. #597
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    By it's nature the deflector dish is effectively a ranged weapon. Modifying it to shoot something other than whatever it original shot to push space debris out of the way whilst moving isn't an exactly insurmountable thing. Think, the beams have to be strong enough and high powered enough to move things quickly out of the way whilst the ship is moving at velocity. Changing what it beams out isn't a crazy thing.
    It's an emitter, but that doesn't mean you can just pump whatever through it. And there was never any explanation for why tachyons did anything. It was just "subspace anomaly? Fire some tachyons at it and see what happens." It's hand-wave techbabble. They may as well be saying "cast Wingardium Leviosa at it".

    The point wasn't "could you theoretically rewire the deflector to do this", it's that the writers only had the barest idea of how the deflector theoretically worked, so they could repurpose it for whatever the story needed; Star Trek is not hard science fiction, and does not pretend to be. It far more frequently hand-waves the "science" out of the way, to focus on the social/political allegory at the core of the story.

    Which is fine. I wasn't actually condemning Trek for doing this. Just pointing out that it's a hand-wave.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's an emitter, but that doesn't mean you can just pump whatever through it. And there was never any explanation for why tachyons did anything. It was just "subspace anomaly? Fire some tachyons at it and see what happens." It's hand-wave techbabble. They may as well be saying "cast Wingardium Leviosa at it".

    The point wasn't "could you theoretically rewire the deflector to do this", it's that the writers only had the barest idea of how the deflector theoretically worked, so they could repurpose it for whatever the story needed; Star Trek is not hard science fiction, and does not pretend to be. It far more frequently hand-waves the "science" out of the way, to focus on the social/political allegory at the core of the story.

    Which is fine. I wasn't actually condemning Trek for doing this. Just pointing out that it's a hand-wave.
    I misunderstood, that's fair enough. Given how far in the future they like to be, doing hard science would really only work in a post apocalyptic / warhammer style where technology is stunted for a long period of time. Do achieve something idealistic I think the hand-wavey style was on the money haha

  19. #599
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    With the allowance of a couple rocky seasons to start (which is true of DS9 and TNG, anyway)
    Yeah, that's fair. As I said above, some of the greatest shows of all time didn't find their way until season 2. Not unlike Disco, which had a painfully boring opening arc, got great after mid season, and then stayed strong all through season 2.

    I'll add Enterprise to my watch list. Nearly done with my Angel rewatch, anyway.
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  20. #600
    I don't exactly hate Alex Kurtzman but it is hard to say his style isn't different. The last few episodes have certainly started to feel more Trek. Yes, still in a darker more adult style but Picard seems to be less of a punching bag for everyone around him and he doesn't seem like he is planning to blow his brains out with a phaser next. Not sure if that has something to do with the Kurtzman "step away" and following reshoots or not, but I feel a lot more positive about the show the past few weeks. Up until then I felt it was just going to be another run of the mil generic Sci-Fi show that happened to have the legendary Picard in it to draw an audience.

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