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  1. #641
    The Lightbringer zEmini's Avatar
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    Maybe everyone here has already talked about this but could Dr. Alton Soong actually be ... Lore?

  2. #642
    I am Murloc! Mister K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    The pure unadulterated stupidity that a android can pick up a fucking book and learn how to mind meld

    This show is pure absolute moronic trash
    This show is fantasy, there is no logic in fantasy. Even so, who's to say this isn't fitting/possible? Are there ground breaking rules that cannot be bent? Laws of the Universe? Nope, didn't think so
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  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister K View Post
    This show is fantasy, there is no logic in fantasy. Even so, who's to say this isn't fitting/possible? Are there ground breaking rules that cannot be bent? Laws of the Universe? Nope, didn't think so
    You do have logic in fantasy, it just has to be internally consistent. You set the ground rules (so in ST universe we have FTL travel, teleporting, etc), but then you have to stick to them (or have a plot device as to why they no longer apply). For example you cant just have picard shoot lasers from his eyes and fly away superman style and use the argument "it's fantasy we can do what we want". It would clearly be silly and pap writing.

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    The pure unadulterated stupidity that a android can pick up a fucking book and learn how to mind meld

    This show is pure absolute moronic trash
    We know Vulcans are a telepathic species. Telepathy has never been portrayed as anything but a natural ability, based on genetics. For an android, it shouldn't be significantly more complicated (at least conceptually) to duplicate that faculty the way they are duplicating others. If you can make an android sweat and bleed and poop, this is just another natural ability you copy.

    Additionally, there's nothing stopping androids from constantly improving their own function. Data did it numerous times. So when an android says they "learned" to mind meld, it could very well have entailed not just study and practice (which we know is ALSO necessary for Vulcans), but the necessary physiological alterations as well. Heck, that could all be part of an android's understanding of "learning" in the first place.

    See for example Data and his emotion chip. It required BOTH a functional alteration (installing the chip) AND an intellectual effort (learning how to deal with emotions). This could have been done the same way.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister K View Post
    This show is fantasy, there is no logic in fantasy. Even so, who's to say this isn't fitting/possible? Are there ground breaking rules that cannot be bent? Laws of the Universe? Nope, didn't think so
    Why do people keep doing this? This is pretty much always the path to mindless stuff like Michael Bay films. And people do like variety in their entertainment. Not *everything* needs to be distilled to explosions with no logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Why do people keep doing this? This is pretty much always the path to mindless stuff like Michael Bay films. And people do like variety in their entertainment. Not *everything* needs to be distilled to explosions with no logic.
    Unfortunately, it seems to sell. Or at least sell to the widest possible audience.

    I still have emotional scars from Picard driving a dune buggy in Nemesis. But I'm not the target audience for Star Trek anymore. I expect too much, and look too closely. That's why I didn't pay to see the JJAbominations. Others did. A lot of others. And so now we get pew pew boom boom instead of 5 people debating what it means to be human in a closed room.

    But I can live with ST:P so far. It hinges on how they resolve the whole Admonishment thing, though.

  7. #647
    welp, that was hot garbage.

  8. #648
    Well, there were some good parts to the finale but I think it might have been the weakest episode of the season.
    It is time to realize that you are a member of the Universe, that you are born of Nature itself, and to know that a limit has been set to your time.

  9. #649
    I've generally liked the show but I was not a fan of the season finale at all.

    Of all the directions they could have chosen, they chose this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Okay. Spoiler filled thoughts.


    [B][U]The Finale.
    [/U][/B]
    What an ungodly mess. I don't even know where to begin.

    So there is Soong going from full on galactic genocide advocate to siding with the organics he was about to see destroyed to stop his children. How completely silly.

    There's Sutra (she-Lore) going from promising character to deactivated thanks to a remote control.

    We could talk about the ungodly mess of Romulan ships coming up against the ungodly mess of bad looking 2399 Star Fleet ships. I legit don't understand how Star Trek modelers on the internet can make such incredibly thought out designs, but paid CG artists - some of them with prior Star Trek backgrounds - come up with these terrible looking things. Oh and they copy and paste it 300 times because Star Trek is now Star Wars.

    The super synth trans galactic space empire? Apparently the most evolved form of android life in multiple galaxies is something out of Lovecraft, but with metal. The imagination gap between the Trek production staff of the 1990s and whatever the current crew is, couldn't be clearer. It's not that it's Mass Effects Reavers. Reavers weren't the first iteration of that idea. It's that their idea of cosmic threat was literally red hole opens in the sky and tentacles come out. Yes folks. "Star Trek". That exists in the same fictional universe as every episode of TNG.

    The re-death of Data. Okay. Every scene with Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner is automatically great. I especially liked Picard coming to hold Data's hand as he died. But there is two big problems with this. First, we just learned that Data has been alive for years nows inside a complex quantum simulation. YAY! Oh and now we wants to die feel mortality and bring him closer to humanity. Okay...? I mean it makes a kind of sense with regards to his character arc. But to give and take away within the span of 3 minutes is an utter farce. If Picard had learned that Data was alive in Episode 1, then that would have been touching. Instead now it feels like "oh look Brent Spiner doesn't want to play Data anymore... again". This was a scene from a better plotted series that somehow made it into here. But in the series we got, Data should have been the golem.

    Oh and the Death of Jean-Luc Picard. That's the biggest "fuck this" moment of the show. Star Trek has handled death typically very poorly. Tasha Yar's death was so terrible it got an intentional do-over of sorts in Yesterday's Enterprise. Jadzia Dax's death was described by other characters as "pointless". And Captain Kirk's illustrious life was ended by his bidge collapsing into a ravine and dying alone - a scene reshot because audiences boo'd him being shot in the back by Soran.

    So how does the greatest explorer of the 24th century depart? With a pain to the back of the head that was never well defined, that was forgotten about between Episodes 2 and 8 before suddenly becoming acute, surrounded by people he just met.

    It just undermines the entire purpose of the entire series. Ostensibly, this show is supposed to be about the closing years of Picard's life. Patrick Stewart, aged 79, has only a few years left. This show would logically end with the death of Captain Picard. A meaningful death. One hopefully surrounded by true family. It should have been - and could have been - a rather beutiful moment.

    What do we get instead? Oh he died. But they uploaded (or copied) his consciousness (or just memories) to a golem android (which we still don't know if it is cylon-like organic or not) that will live some number of more years... Picard's natural life span.

    So why did we kill Picard only to rez him five minutes later? Because the next time Picard dies, it wouldn't have the same punch. Because is this even the real Picard anymore? Or a copy? What happened to Picard's human body by the way? Did the greatest explorer of the 24th century get thrown in the trash? Or did they give it a proper burial? Or return it to Starfleet?

    Oh... and Seven of Nine and Raffi are now lesbians and a couple. Surprise!
    ----------------------

    [B][U]The Series[/U][/B]
    From the first episode of the Season, I wrote theories about where I think the show was going to go based on what we knew. And all of them are better than what we got.

    I'd be less than half disgusted with this episode, and now the series, if they didn't kill Picard only to rez him as an android golem who may or may not be Picard at all. Is there a point to that? Was that some kind of reshoot edit to bring the show back for a 2nd season? It's not that they killed the beloved character - I've been anticipating Picard's death in this series since Episode 1, and I think they should do it. It's beyond bizarre (and bad writing) that they not only sped run a supposedly degenerative neurological condition that they could have mined for stories, but that they did it, and undid it in the span of five minutes.

    So now if they do it, it'll never have resonance. Because Picard already died, in 2399. Whatever dies in Season 3... that's just his golem. A copy. Not the genuine article.

    So if this show isn't about the last act of Captain Picard, then what's the damn point?

    It's just coupled with how they brought back Data, only to have Picard kill him, and then disposed of She-Lore in about five minutes, and had Soong do a face turn after being ready to kill all organic life in the galaxy, and then to bring Riker back as Captain about 2 days after Picard and co left his planet..... what we have here, yet again, is another show where the writers have no creative vision of where they want to take the characters.

    They improv everything, based around shock moments mostly, and assemble it in editing. And hope fans don't ask too many questions.

    It's not even like I'm asking for the show to deal deep in Star Trek lore or obsess about respecting continuity or typical Star Trek stuff. The show can make Seven of Nine a lesbian if it wants! But for fucks sake... give us a hint before literally the final season. And did Seven of Nine even share any scenes with Raffi? That's a mighty loving hand grasp for people who met five minutes ago. Literally the show just needs to respect its own characters and have Seven give Raffi a glance or something.

    Did the show even have a plan with the super-synth empire? Like a creative vision whatsoever for it, beyond robo-Lovecraft? Oh and what's the deal with anything related to the Borg now? Besides as a way to bring in Hugh and Seven of Nine and to provide some shocking visuals? Literally, the Artifact could have been a generic space station.


    This show really suffers from something similar to Discovery in regards to the cast. Patrick Stewart aside, the Special Guest Stars are better actors and characters than the main cast. Did anyone new in the show have as good scenes as Troi and Riker did? Or Hugh? Or Seven? Rios was the only one that had anything going for him, because the actor had to play seven different roles.


    This show is really, Discovery Mark II. It's a creative mess, yet again, that is filled left and right with own-goals. So where is it going? Who knows. Who cares really. Picard is alive (or is he?) but as a synth now and the crew of a ship whose name you have to look up on Memory Alpha, and whose design is so unmemorable it's on the level of the Voyager alien-bad-guy-of-the-week, and a cast you really just don't care for.

    What's also striking is just how many fan theories were better than what we got. I never thought Soong was Lore. But Soong being Lore is vastly superior to what we got. There not being a Soong and Data being secretly alive the entire time would have been better. The alternative "Star Treky" explanation for the message where all better than "Space Robo-Cthulu". The Borg theories were generally better than what we got. Captain Worf riding to the rescue at the end was better than what we got. I still can't believe they played out his neurological condition in about 2 episodes. Shockingly bad writing.

    All of this makes me just want to not play the guessing games with shows anymore about where we were going. In recent times with this, with Game of Thrones, with the X-Files revival, with Discovery, with Vikings.. its just show after show after show where the creative forces behind it clearly did not give much of a shit and just hoped their viewers didn't think hard about it. They have no creative plan for their show other than a general outline. What really kills me is the contrast between shows like the Expanse, the Mandalorian, Star Wars Rebels and these other shows. Star Trek: Picard was, ostensibly, the most expensive Star Trek show ever made. $10 million an episode. By contrast Enterprise Season 4 cost $800,000 per episode ($1.7 million for season 1-3). Where did the money go? In CGI worse than what Eden FX did 18 years ago? Or to writers who took a huge cut due to their name and put the minimum amount of work in involved. Certainly not to the cast, most of which are unknowns. Or the sets, which looked cheap. Or the on-location shooting, which was rare.

    I'll watch Season 2 because Patrick Stewart. But the final episode Kamakazied the entire season with the Picard-golem. After the Expanse seasons ended, I always go back and rewatch. This series? I won't be re watching it. It'll be too painful to.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    They're trading on the chemistry of the old cast and trying really, really hard to hide how terrible the writing is.
    This was my thought after the trailer, and after a season I think what the show has to offer is some islands of nostalgia dotting a swamp of horseshit, so I'd say I called it.

    Last episode:
    Apart from some extra cash to some artist who got to cut and paste a lot, what exactly is the point of a standoff between hundreds of ships vs a standoff between two ships?

    "THIS IS FOR HUGH!" Oh... she... cared about Hugh. I guess that makes sense? Her arc was that she likes to take vengeance, even if we didn't really see her relate to the character onscreen. I must be forgetting a scene.

    Picard managed to buy about 3 seconds with his maneuvering and bullshit magic tool. I guess that's realistic in a way but ouch.

    Romulan myths sound really stupid, but hey, the *fascinating* thing about history is that it 100% repeats itself, point for point every time.

    Cthulsynth is so very silly.

    Maybe they mentioned it in the pizza episode but Will never made it past captain?

    The three good moments of the episode were entirely predicated on nostalgia - Picard's "To be alive is a responsibility," speech, Riker's arrogant slouch captaining a starship again, and an actual Data head tilt.

    Was yawning as Picard "died," where it was going was as obvious as it was awful. Will admit I half expected them to recast Picard when he came back, there is really no good explanation for why you wouldn't give him at least a youthful body, but whatever. May as well keep your star intact if you're going to invalidate his character's death and the looming sickness. Now if the show's a hit, it can keep going for as long as Stewart wants money and can be propped upright!

    The show doesn't know what it is trying to say, or what it is about. It clearly prioritized Doing Cool Stuff over building any meaningful connections between the characters, or with the audience to the characters. Despite what I said I wanted to like it, my reaction to the first episode was hopeful even though they made such a weird choice in attaching us to the first synth twin and then killing her. Had they used that death in any meaningful way maybe things would have been different, but it barely mattered. By the time her syster found out, she was too discombobulated by the revelations about her life to care, and if it mattered to Picard beyond the plot contrivance of starting his meandering quest, he didn't show it after episode 2. It was just a shock moment, an attempt at a Ned Stark with no grasp of why Ned's death works, with no thought given to the cost in character development for their show.

    Stories are more than just stuff happening sequentially, cause leading to effect; they have a purpose, they try to say something meaningful about life. Shoehorning in some speech that thinly connects to some story elements does not inject purpose. Meaningful consequence to the choices of well developed characters is what injects purpose into a story.


    As much as I'm ragging on it, it wasn't awful, it was just mediocre and disappointing. It's true that sometimes first seasons are the weak ones. I'll read the wikipedia summaries of the next season maybe, and see if it's worth watching.

    Watching this to get the taste out of my mouth: https://youtu.be/bl5TUw7sUBs
    Last edited by Zaktar; 2020-03-26 at 10:26 AM.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I'll watch Season 2 because Patrick Stewart.
    also Guinan

  12. #652
    I assume Patrick Stewart earns 990000 an episode.

  13. #653
    I am just happy it ended mostly positive. A step in the right direction as far was I am concerned with. Since 2009 Trek has been a lot more negative. Humanity was painted as a problem. Here it showed we have flaws but hey.. its not all doom and gloom.

  14. #654
    The resurrection of Picard was foreshadowed in the series intro sequence -> Picard's face getting assembled from pieces. First episode it looked weird then with each new episode it was clear he's gonna die and get androidified - or golem'ed as it turned out
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  15. #655
    Aside from the magic stick (wtf?) I liked the season finale.

    Kinda disappointed though that Q didn't show up before the simulation .

    But yeah it's classic Star Trek TNG as far as I'm concerned, the conflict was resolved through words not phasers.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2020-03-26 at 01:15 PM.

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Why do people keep doing this? This is pretty much always the path to mindless stuff like Michael Bay films. And people do like variety in their entertainment. Not *everything* needs to be distilled to explosions with no logic.
    Also not everything people don't like is not within the logic of the universe. I think the mindmeld is no real problem. The androids in ST are not just machines. They are way more. Which is exactly what this show is trying to say, no?

    But i agree, that logic must be kept in a way. Not natural law. If it is explained they can do virtually everything they want. In ST especially if you look at all the liberties EVERY show took. From Time-travel to Q to the widely fluctuating borg...

  17. #657
    I'm spending a lot of time trying to resolve the fact that Star Trek now has a legion of synths outside the plane of existence just waiting to enter and kill all life and that it has happened previously.

    Do the Q know about it? They have to right? Did they fight it? Did their species get wiped out mostly by it? Did the Preservers have to re-seed all the worlds after this apocalyptic species wiped out organics? Did the preservers also get wiped out by cyber-cthulhu?

    Is this something now they have to worry about synths anywhere learning to summon? It's knowledge now that's passed around by all these synths, that this exists. If some synth gets treated badly by an organic is it the end of times yet again? There's just way too many implications here.




    Also the crew now has a magic plot fix object that can literally get them out of any problem apparently. Ohboy.



    It is time to realize that you are a member of the Universe, that you are born of Nature itself, and to know that a limit has been set to your time.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    I'm spending a lot of time trying to resolve the fact that Star Trek now has a legion of synths outside the plane of existence just waiting to enter and kill all life and that it has happened previously.

    Do the Q know about it? They have to right? Did they fight it? Did their species get wiped out mostly by it? Did the Preservers have to re-seed all the worlds after this apocalyptic species wiped out organics? Did the preservers also get wiped out by cyber-cthulhu?

    Is this something now they have to worry about synths anywhere learning to summon? It's knowledge now that's passed around by all these synths, that this exists. If some synth gets treated badly by an organic is it the end of times yet again? There's just way too many implications here.




    Also the crew now has a magic plot fix object that can literally get them out of any problem apparently. Ohboy.



    It's worth noting that Star Trek was once a franchise that rejected ship designs for having too small / too few windows, because the "look" of Star Trek ships is to have decks of windows. The production staff was extremely particular about a cohesive vision of this universe.

    Now Star Trek has Cyber-Cthulu always waiting out there to eat the galaxy with its red portal and tentacles.

    I know what Gene Roddenberry felt and meant when he said he regarded large parts of Star Trek V as "apocryphal".

    It goes well beyond Star Trek. I don't understand why creative forces behind modern shows are so completely careless with plot, internal consistency and visual design.

    Cyber-Cuthulu for example, could easily have been replaced with an ominous black-blue pyramid or something like that - something more abstract and less decisively evil, than robot-tentacles from hell.

    Or even take a look at the 2399 Star fleet ships. Star Trek shows intentionally avoided making non-hero ships of the saucer-neck-body-twin pylon design pioneered by the USS Enterprise. Really only other Enterprise's and ships of their respective classes had it. This is why with DS9, in the first encounter with the Jem Hadar, they had the Galaxy-class USS Odyssey destroyed. The intention was to send a message that not even Picard and the Enterprise would have survived that. Voyager even largely avoided this design by keeping its smaller pylons flat except for warp.

    But what does this show do? It creates two ships with basically the same hull (but different pylons) and copies then 300 times. And it looks like a visual mess of too many hero ships that all have the same general lines as the Enterprise.

    It's truly mindboggling to me that shows made 25 years ago got it more right than the most expensive Star Trek show ever made with the little details that just did not make it look like a mess. The battles of DS9? Objectively better looking than whatever the hell we got in Picard.

    Making a Star Trek show in 2399, in a universe where details matter, while ignoring details just seems so pointless.

    Last edited by Skroe; 2020-03-26 at 05:34 PM.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister K View Post
    This show is fantasy, there is no logic in fantasy. Even so, who's to say this isn't fitting/possible? Are there ground breaking rules that cannot be bent? Laws of the Universe? Nope, didn't think so
    I found the idea of Sutra doing a mind meld to be a little off-putting at first. Robots doing telepathy! That's just silly!

    Then it occurred to me that the process by which a telepathic race performs telepathy in Star Trek has never been really defined. So I'll just let it slide a little.

    I think I would've liked it more if everyone went on a field trip to the T'Kon doo-hickey and looked at for themselves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post

    But the final episode Kamakazied the entire season with the Picard-golem.
    This is actually the thing that I liked best about the episode. It kind of causes him to stand in "both worlds" now.

    PS Holding hands while playing Kal-Toh doesn't mean you're gay.

  20. #660
    The super-synth-gods got the beacon, then sent a probe from matrix instead. Wow. That is lazy. Rest was decent.

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