That's because we live in relatively new nations with only hundreds years of history rather than thousands, 1/4 the population, triple the economy and living in a nation built on the backs of slaves and stolen land. I mean we're well in recognition of this, so that's why we have the freedom to criticize our own governments and whatnot. That's why immigrant families come here, it's technically a better life. But at the same time we also face the unique (dare I say first-world) problems granted by all this freedom - freedom to spread misinformation, freedom to change the government around and tear down systems that were voted in just 4 years prior, freedom to go forwards while going backwards. There's no true suffering faced here, few of us living here have faced actual terrorism or actual war (at least in NA). Hell, an epidemic is one of our least concerns, all things considered.
When we're talking about a country that has such a high population where people can freely move around within the nation, the fear of terrorism is substantial and true. With a history of being exploited by foreign powers and division of the country from internal politics and strife going back centuries, even millenia, it's no wonder that China has reinvented itself the way it has. I mean if you delve into Chinese history, it's been taken over by outside powers and inside powers hundreds of times over. The current government is probably the strongest ever seen in the history of their nation, but it becomes very fragile if left open to the same freedoms we have in the west. We bicker amongst ourselves by favouring left/right ideals and tear at the foundations of our own government every time there's a shift. That already happened in China and they saw the results of internal strife- it allowed the Japanese to invade China. They aren't going to make the same mistake again after the revolution, and it's why they're so zealous in stomping out any religious-based terrorism they deem a threat to their society, be it Falun Gong, Uyghur muslims or others. It's totalitarian and it's strict, and it works. We see this resocialization as a bad thing only, and it's a terrible thing, but in the context of the Chinese government it's working towards a unified country, not one separated by culture or creed and left with radical ideals that can tear away at the systems they've worked so hard to build.
Their stance comes from a deep rooted history of internal conflict and having seen how internal politics lead to a complete fracture of their nation. What we observe here from the West is through tinted glasses - How can we judge a nation that is clearly tackling its own issues when we're unable to tackle our own? A handful of refugees enter the country and the government and society flips out. One terrorist event in the US turned the country around. Well, this is what China has been dealing with internally since... forever. It's a damn shame this is what is happening, but at the same time at least they're dealing with the terrorism problem rather than pretending upping security and diplomacy has lead to anything constructive. Unfortunately there is no sure-fire solution to religiously-fueled terrorism. That's the simple truth.
Bad example incoming, but I feel like it's looking at a zombie apocalypse. We're all treating zombies like they're a threat we have to contain, while China is trying to stomp it out completely through extreme means and breaking whatever human rights to do it. We're judging them now for their methods, but who will win out in the long run? We don't know if we can cure the zombies, even if we try our best to do so. But there might never be a cure, so we might be the losers in the long run and it would be our hubris and foolishness that leads us to our demise. We're not even thankful that we are a nation far from conflict.
Last edited by Triceron; 2019-05-28 at 01:53 AM.
You are capable of being more nuanced than that. Each was a tragedy, each was a symbol in it's time, both are now old enough that there are adults who did not live through those days. Yet somehow it seems people who have at best a loose understanding of events in China (for example, Tank Man wasn't killed in the moments after that picture) keep pushing the old regime change dialogue. Since there aren't exactly a lot of Chinese, or even Asian posters here, Hubcap's threads are basically playing into hyping up the echo chamber -- look at the responses in them to South Korean or Vietnamese posters who don't fall in line. Was the aftermath different? In a way, but mainly because Kent State got swept under the carpet and is barely remembered. Tank Man too, really. Perhaps Huang Huang really believes, but I don't discount that this was a stunt to keep him in the good graces of foreign donorsOriginally Posted by Kasierith
One point three billion people and a history of warlords and cults of personality, China is the social equivalent of a crowded theater. If your reading of my words was that China is totally chill about it you're trying to see things as black and white when they aren't.Originally Posted by Mehrunes
Since I'm told you're from Poland, I don't particularly have a dispute with you. I wasn't there, but I watched the early stories about Solidarity. Those were important events that fit their times, and you would be rightly proud of them. China is working with a larger population, spread over a lot more land, and based on different cultural values, but I can understand if you choose to discount those factors.
Is what I said inconsistent? No, things aren't really as two dimensional as internet squabbling tends to be. The US is "chill" with dead baby jokes, jokes about terrorists, or jokes about bombs. They aren't illegal on their face, but tell a bomb joke in the wrong place at the wrong time and don't be surprised if you end up on some lists and possibly having some nice folks talk to you. I've already had class discussions about Tank Man and other topics. Nobody bothers to give a damn because bungee isn't much of a public figure, but Huang Huang tries to be and that puts him much more under the lens.
Since debate here tends to get sorted on some flavor of red team/blue team (or alt-right vs. whatever the current buzzword is) let me address my politics directly. I did my time in the American political system, in a pretty corrupt eddy of it (corrupt, as in the governor later got jailed for some of the things). My practice was focused on international law and international trade. I came here to see things first hand, and I stay because I enjoy the students. My interest in political systems of all stripes at this point can be summed up with a quote from Deng Xioaping "it doesn't matter if it is a cat is black or white as long as it catches mice". Personally, I find that China is increasingly going back to being a bureaucracy, with "the Party" filling in the traditional role of the Emperor sitting walled away in the Forbidden City. That seems to work for them though.
What I find missing from these threads is ironically a sense of individuality. China gets talked about as if it is a termite mound, with a queen, drones, and warriors. It isn't. The same regulation gets read and enforced different ways from province to province and often from city to city. The Party is no more monolithic than either the Democrats or the Republicans, both of which will tell you what their platform stands for while at the same time there are all sorts of internal factions.
What should we call it then, Schroedinger's Directive? It is something that has been announced, it isn't really in effect although there are various experiments, and since it doesn't really exist it is as vague as similar attempts to address things like social media outside of China. I can't say I've heard of a single one where people think it is a great example of lawmaking.Originally Posted by Post
And right there, the Yellow Peril aspect of his posting becomes clear.Originally Posted by Hubcap
Makes a difference doesn't it.Originally Posted by Triceron
With COVID-19 making its impact on our lives, I have decided that I shall hang in there for my remaining days, skip some meals, try to get children to experiment with making henna patterns on their skin, and plant some trees. You know -- live, fast, dye young, and leave a pretty copse. I feel like I may not have that quite right.
They are going to be fine as long as they can get those results, its going to be epic when China enters its first recession in a while. The party has been trying its best to prevent it at all costs with billions of stimulus and tons of CO2 emmited as a result, but it can't go on like that forever.
I visited China’s capital not six weeks ago for business. Assigned to me a whole team of people to make sure I was as happy as one can be, a personal driver, a guide, a translator (my PA speaks Chinese fluently but it’s always better to have people think we can’t hear what they say), some burly looking guys for security and waygu steak for breakfast. Gotta love communism.
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Most of those threads are just news articles though, nationbashing is an enforced rule on this forum.
It was communism in name only for long time anyway.
Majority wanted to stay in union - and considering all wars and nationalistic flare-ups this breakout created, not to mention economic collapse from broken supply chains, they were right.
It created millions of extra deaths. One of worst catastrophes of modern times.
You know, Glasnost? Perestroyka? People were speaking up for long time already with no repercussions when breakdown happened.Yes, the only way. Show me another. Let me guess, China's way? Where you are OK as long as you never speak up? xD
Or maybe it's due to China's consistent poor human rights record?
We most likely don't talk about it often enough. The biggest country on Earth, an up and coming superpower, is a corrupt dystopia. That should be bigger news than whatever outrage is sweeping Twitter today.
Then let's have clear, rational discussions on matters instead of thinly veiled Yellow Peril stuff. Seriously, the guy posting most of these just whipped out "are you ethnic Chinese" in a reply and anyone who has actually visited China and had different experiences is automatically dismissed out of hand -- page back and look how @De thuongOriginally Posted by Mormolyce
gets blown off. It isn't about human rights, it is a stage for people to throw around stuff like "shithole" without getting infracted.
With COVID-19 making its impact on our lives, I have decided that I shall hang in there for my remaining days, skip some meals, try to get children to experiment with making henna patterns on their skin, and plant some trees. You know -- live, fast, dye young, and leave a pretty copse. I feel like I may not have that quite right.
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"This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."
-- Capt. Copeland
You can post picture like this and rest of the free world without fear of going to jail or worse....do the same sh¡t in China and you are fu[ked....but guys like you never see the light, like all those MF in my country defending the Venezuelan government and maduro....
The Twitter propaganda that talks about parts of the system?
You can call it an awful idea. You can say it doesn't exist, but we're in a thread where a guy got arrested for posting something that could be seen as negative towards the government. It just doesn't have a number attached yet.
Spoils the echo, eh?Originally Posted by Gaexion Ramza Beoulve
If they had, we would know.Originally Posted by Hubcap
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/happe...195001207.htmlSpeculation continues to circulate about Tank Man’s fate. Thousands of Chinese nationals were detained and imprisoned for their involvement in the protests, some of them kept in jail for almost their entire lives. Others were executed. No one has been able to determine whether Tank Man was among them.
...
But it seems at least as plausible that the man disappeared back into his normal life. If he had left the country, he would have been free to speak out, according to Canadian journalist Jan Wang, who witnessed the confrontation. And if authorities had found him, they would have put him on public display, she told PBS. She believes there’s a good chance he’s alive and living quietly in China. The Information Centre for Human Rights and Democracy Movement in China said in 1998 that it had obtained official party documents that showed authorities had no idea what happened to him. In a 1990 interview with Barbara Walters, former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin said he couldn’t confirm (video) whether the man was arrested or not. He broke from speaking to Walters through an interpreter and said in English, “I think never, never killed.”
Which is probably less significant than you think. Different countries draw the line in different places and may have different hot buttons, but those lines do get drawn. For eighteen years the US had a ban on media coverage of returning war dead. Currently there are questions about US intentions to charge Assange. The bar is probably higher, but the Netherlands still have lese majesty laws. According to the idea of sovereignty, it is up to a country to make its own laws. The US, for example, often takes measures to see that internal policies aren't dictated by other nations.Originally Posted by Vivapin8
Same as above really. The death penalty is generally viewed as something countries should have moved past, but the US and China both have it. The same idea that says each can have and enforce that penalty applies to this situation as well.Originally Posted by Post
With COVID-19 making its impact on our lives, I have decided that I shall hang in there for my remaining days, skip some meals, try to get children to experiment with making henna patterns on their skin, and plant some trees. You know -- live, fast, dye young, and leave a pretty copse. I feel like I may not have that quite right.
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"This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."
-- Capt. Copeland
Majority of WHO? Russians in Russia proper? Because Baltics clearly did not. We clearly did not want that, as our votes showed (choose whichever language you want https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E...B2%D0%B8%D0%B8)
Millions of extra deaths? Lolwhat? Are you confusing the Russian Civil war with the fall of USSR?
Yes, they were, and they were still getting oppressed because of that. Oh yes, they were. Real actions and agitations started in 1989, very quickly, very fast until it exploded out of control (and fucks in Moscow sent tanks to drive over civilians and OMON to shoot up local police as a response. Thankfully, there were some officers with different ideas, like a certain general, who sent field kitchens instead. Ahh, the butthurt it still causes).
Glasnost and perestroika were just words, without any salt. The last thing USSR ever "did".