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  1. #221
    The Insane Boomzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Just wait till he comes with the copy-paste that will get your internet blocked in China! /s


    Do you mean this one? Free Tibet? The Tiananmen Square Massacre?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gobio View Post
    "Hey China isn't so bad I live here"

    "Chinese don't value individual freedom, its normal here"

    A guy suddenly wants personal freedom in the corner over there

    "Just don't be that guy, he is in jail, but who cares, the important thing is I enjoy living here"
    It's what always happens. You can literally see it play out between me and another poster in this thread. Only the "bad people" who are "disrupting society" with their "American propaganda" who are "criminals" are put in camps and prisons, which is exactly the same as Westerners putting people in prison because uhhh "???" therefore China did nothing wrong.


    It's similar to the Neo-Nazi thing that Neo-Nazi's do, "The holocaust didn't happen.... BUT IT SHOULD HAVE!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    Like I asked earlier, it is easy for you to be a keyboard hero spamming threads on the off topic forum of a gaming board, but what are you actually doing about it if it is so important to you?

    I'm arguing against people denying reality, instead of letting them spew propaganda. A spark starts a fire, a fire causes change, change causes revolution.

    China knows that, that's why they censor people.

    For fucks sake Communism was started by the book of one man, and spread by the influence of one man who happened to be in power. It doesn't take a lot of people to cause change, it takes one or two charismatic individuals being influenced to cause change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xisa View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    We are in this thread with Elba, therefore we are all Elba.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy View Post
    It's similar to the Neo-Nazi thing that Neo-Nazi's do, "The holocaust didn't happen.... BUT IT SHOULD HAVE!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm arguing against people denying reality, instead of letting them spew propaganda. A spark starts a fire, a fire causes change, change causes revolution.

    China knows that, that's why they censor people.

    For fucks sake Communism was started by the book of one man, and spread by the influence of one man who happened to be in power. It doesn't take a lot of people to cause change, it takes one or two charismatic individuals being influenced to cause change.
    Yea it sparks change but a revolution towards what? Western ideals of freedom? That is already here and is the reason why neo nazism is allowed to exist today. Somehow that is better?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-05-29 at 02:56 AM.

  3. #223
    The Insane Boomzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yea it sparks change but a revolution towards what? Western ideals of freedom? That is already here and is the reason why neo nazism is allowed to exist today. Somehow that is better?
    Yes. Allowing Neo-Nazi's to exist is better than putting them in camps.

    As we have seen with China it doesn't just begin and end with the very very worst of society, it has expanded to anyone the state views as a "threat" to the status quo. Indeed not "threat to society" not "threat to people" it's a threat to the CURRENT ORDER. I would rather have Neo-Nazi's roam the streets all day if it means the freedom to have all of the other good people also being able to roam the streets and protest against them. It's worked pretty well so far, as much as people like to panic about Nazi's taking over the United States, we aren't even close to that happening. Trump's agenda is well within the scope of the Republican agenda at large, with no foreseeable plans to change. Nazi's were hated in the US, and they are still hated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xisa View Post
    You had your chance to make something special of this, Internet, and you fucked it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    We are in this thread with Elba, therefore we are all Elba.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy View Post
    Yes. Allowing Neo-Nazi's to exist is better than putting them in camps.

    As we have seen with China it doesn't just begin and end with the very very worst of society, it has expanded to anyone the state views as a "threat" to the status quo. Indeed not "threat to society" not "threat to people" it's a threat to the CURRENT ORDER. I would rather have Neo-Nazi's roam the streets all day if it means the freedom to have all of the other good people also being able to roam the streets and protest against them. It's worked pretty well so far, as much as people like to panic about Nazi's taking over the United States, we aren't even close to that happening. Trump's agenda is well within the scope of the Republican agenda at large, with no foreseeable plans to change. Nazi's were hated in the US, and they are still hated.
    It still isnt equivalent. Neo nazis haven't gone as far as full blown terrorism, and had it done so then you wouldn't be saying the same thing. Again, you aren't living in a place where domestic terrorism is a true and imminent threat to the rest of your society. I doubt you would actually feel the same way if the threat were not simply panic, but reality.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-05-29 at 03:28 AM.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It still isnt equivalent. Neo nazis haven't gone as far as full blown terrorism, and had it done so then you wouldn't be saying the same thing. Again, you aren't living in a place where domestic terrorism is a true and imminent threat to the rest of your society. I doubt you would actually feel the same way if the threat were not simply panic, but reality.
    Plenty of countries represented here on the forums deal with terrorism on a much more common basis than China does. Like Israel, or parts of Europe. Seeing how heavy-handed and harsh China has been with the Uighurs, I better not see any of China's defenders around here ever criticize Israel.
    Last edited by Stelio Kontos; 2019-05-29 at 05:52 AM.
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Plenty of countries represented here on the forums deal with terrorism on a much more common basis than China does. Like Israel, or parts of Europe. Seeing how heavy-handed and harsh China has been with the Uighurs, I better not see any of China's defenders around here ever criticize Israel.
    So a state that will never have peace between its people and is in a constant state of alert is what you consider a good example against terrorism?

    That is not a solution, and the terrorism is still highly active. Its not under control whatsoever.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-05-29 at 07:03 AM.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Oh we would? Suuuuure.
    Yes, last time tanks were used to keep countries in a block was in 1968.

    Communists never have wanted anyone to leave or let them leave.
    Never wanted - true. Never let anyone leave - false. Plenty of countries were already let go when you did your independence referendum.

    Democratic communism sounds like an oxymoron. Sure, there were attempts at "communism with a human face", or "national communism", but those ended poorly when Moscow squashed them.
    Times change.

    I fail to see why the new magical fairy land democratic communism goverment would not attempt the same against disidents. Old farts in power would still be there, just in different suits.
    Except when those "old farts" tried putsch later, they failed... they didn't have nor guts nor power to "do it again".

    Well, Russia again as usual failed to manage absolutely everything. Guess what - 90ties were fun times in whole ex-USSR, not just in Russia. I know that. What did you think would have happened anyway? USSR was so totally rotten and backwards that when borders opened everything built (and I do not mean buildings...) just collapsed.
    Nope, it wasn't "opening the borders" that did it. Things could change a lot more gradually if USSR would be kept intact.

    Fair enough and good. Empire of evil fell, and I will stick by those words.
    It wasn't worth it.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So a state that will never have peace between its people and is in a constant state of alert is what you consider a good example against terrorism?

    That is not a solution, and the terrorism is still highly active. Its not under control whatsoever.
    Targeting an entire ethnicity isn't a solution either.

    Should the US punish all ethnic Chinese in its borders if the two countries ever go to war?
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Plenty of countries represented here on the forums deal with terrorism on a much more common basis than China does. Like Israel, or parts of Europe. Seeing how heavy-handed and harsh China has been with the Uighurs, I better not see any of China's defenders around here ever criticize Israel.
    Umm, are you sure Israel is good example of "dealing with terrorists"? Aren't they much more heavy-handed then Chinese?

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Umm, are you sure Israel is good example of "dealing with terrorists"? Aren't they much more heavy-handed then Chinese?
    I don't know if I'd agree they are more heavy-handed. I'd say both are harsh, which is why anyone defending China shouldn't be criticizing Israel.
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I don't know if I'd agree they are more heavy-handed. I'd say both are harsh, which is why anyone defending China shouldn't be criticizing Israel.
    What do you think is the reason for Chinese oppression of Uighurs?

    Countries generally don't spend such resources on specific ethnic groups without sufficient reason.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    What do you think is the reason for Chinese oppression of Uighurs?

    Countries generally don't spend such resources on specific ethnic groups without sufficient reason.
    I generally put very little weight on a government's "reasons" since they can usually make up any reason they need to to do what they want (the US is really good at that, among others).

    Because that same question can be turned around, would the Uighurs be fighting if Chinese rule was actually of any benefit to them?
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I generally put very little weight on a government's "reasons" since they can usually make up any reason they need to to do what they want (the US is really good at that, among others).

    Because that same question can be turned around, would the Uighurs be fighting if Chinese rule was actually of any benefit to them?
    I'm not asking "government approved reasons", i'm asking what do you think real reasons for such oppression are.

    In many national struggles "chicken and the egg" are fairly hard problems; and it is obvious that West and Western intelligence agencies do try to tip balance into "harm China" direction (at least as far as Chinese perception of it is concerned) and bring such issues into forefront - and so sometimes do Western-nurtured Islamic terrorist groups.

    Naturally, Chinese cannot ignore it - because, yes, some parts of China are more vulnerable to it then others.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    I'm not asking "government approved reasons", i'm asking what do you think real reasons for such oppression are.

    In many national struggles "chicken and the egg" are fairly hard problems; and it is obvious that West and Western intelligence agencies do try to tip balance into "harm China" direction (at least as far as Chinese perception of it is concerned) and bring such issues into forefront - and so sometimes do Western-nurtured Islamic terrorist groups.

    Naturally, Chinese cannot ignore it - because, yes, some parts of China are more vulnerable to it then others.
    I agree to a degree. But the sad fact is, the West wouldn't be able to exploit the feelings of western China's Muslims if there weren't grievances there to begin with. You can't create something out of nothing. All the great powers do this, play on interests and desires to get favorable outcomes. China does it abroad, so does Russia. America does it pretty much everywhere.

    But that also means there have to be some root of discontent pre-existing, as well. At least in my view. If China treated Uighurs fair or equitable, or gave them the same opportunities Han Chinese have, there wouldn't be discontent for Americans to fan the flames of. Same goes for when Soviet intelligence made inroads with black groups in the US during the Cold War, there was a simmering discontent already present.
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I agree to a degree. But the sad fact is, the West wouldn't be able to exploit the feelings of western China's Muslims if there weren't grievances there to begin with. You can't create something out of nothing. All the great powers do this, play on interests and desires to get favorable outcomes. China does it abroad, so does Russia. America does it pretty much everywhere.

    But that also means there have to be some root of discontent pre-existing, as well. At least in my view. If China treated Uighurs fair or equitable, or gave them the same opportunities Han Chinese have, there wouldn't be discontent for Americans to fan the flames of. Same goes for when Soviet intelligence made inroads with black groups in the US during the Cold War, there was a simmering discontent already present.

    America actually believes democracy is a good thing and everyone should live under a democracy.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Wait so what country standard are we using that isn't a 'corrupt dystopia'?

    Every country has problems, that's why this isn't bigger news than whatever is sweeping Twitter today.
    You're seriously going in to bat for the Chinese government, which as we speak is forcing its citizens into re-education camps?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    America actually believes democracy is a good thing and everyone should live under a democracy.
    Yet you're not very democratic.

  18. #238
    Bloodsail Admiral Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Nope, it's the exact same thing.
    Trying reading a book.
    All Communists are Socialists.
    Not all Socialists are Communists.
    They're not the same thing.

    Hell, The Communist Manifesto even goes out of its way to criticize other forms of Socialism.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  19. #239
    Banned Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    All Communists are Socialists.
    Not all Socialists are Communists.
    They're not the same thing.

    Hell, The Communist Manifesto even goes out of its way to criticize other forms of Socialism.
    And utopian socialism is as relevant as monarchism nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    America actually believes democracy is a good thing and everyone should live under a democracy.
    Which is exactly why the US has overthrown more democratic governments than any other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Targeting an entire ethnicity isn't a solution either.
    Good thing nobody is doing that.
    Those deradicalisation programs are run by the Uyghur themselves.
    Should the US punish all ethnic Chinese in its borders if the two countries ever go to war?
    Like how they did to the Japanese?

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Avskildhet View Post
    Yet you're not very democratic.

    How so? 10characters
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

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