China arrests filmmaker Deng Chuanbin because of Tweet

[Stelio Kontos]

I'm not asking "government approved reasons", i'm asking what do you think real reasons for such oppression are.

In many national struggles "chicken and the egg" are fairly hard problems; and it is obvious that West and Western intelligence agencies do try to tip balance into "harm China" direction (at least as far as Chinese perception of it is concerned) and bring such issues into forefront - and so sometimes do Western-nurtured Islamic terrorist groups.

Naturally, Chinese cannot ignore it - because, yes, some parts of China are more vulnerable to it then others.

I agree to a degree. But the sad fact is, the West wouldn't be able to exploit the feelings of western China's Muslims if there weren't grievances there to begin with. You can't create something out of nothing. All the great powers do this, play on interests and desires to get favorable outcomes. China does it abroad, so does Russia. America does it pretty much everywhere.

But that also means there have to be some root of discontent pre-existing, as well. At least in my view. If China treated Uighurs fair or equitable, or gave them the same opportunities Han Chinese have, there wouldn't be discontent for Americans to fan the flames of. Same goes for when Soviet intelligence made inroads with black groups in the US during the Cold War, there was a simmering discontent already present.

[Independent voter]

I agree to a degree. But the sad fact is, the West wouldn't be able to exploit the feelings of western China's Muslims if there weren't grievances there to begin with. You can't create something out of nothing. All the great powers do this, play on interests and desires to get favorable outcomes. China does it abroad, so does Russia. America does it pretty much everywhere.

But that also means there have to be some root of discontent pre-existing, as well. At least in my view. If China treated Uighurs fair or equitable, or gave them the same opportunities Han Chinese have, there wouldn't be discontent for Americans to fan the flames of. Same goes for when Soviet intelligence made inroads with black groups in the US during the Cold War, there was a simmering discontent already present.

America actually believes democracy is a good thing and everyone should live under a democracy.

[Mormolyce]

Wait so what country standard are we using that isn't a 'corrupt dystopia'?

Every country has problems, that's why this isn't bigger news than whatever is sweeping Twitter today.

You're seriously going in to bat for the Chinese government, which as we speak is forcing its citizens into re-education camps?

[Magical Mudcrab]

Nope, it's the exact same thing.
Trying reading a book.

All Communists are Socialists.
Not all Socialists are Communists.
They're not the same thing.

Hell, The Communist Manifesto even goes out of its way to criticize other forms of Socialism.

[Independent voter]

Yet you're not very democratic.

How so? 10characters

[Strawberry]

I call bullshit on arresting him because of that.
I asked my Chinese friend who lives in China on WeChat which is Chinese and "spying on people" about Tiananmen Square IN CHINESE and she replied about protests and pretty much the same as what west sees it as (student killings).
She's still free, alive and well.

[Triceron]

Targeting an entire ethnicity isn't a solution either.

Should the US punish all ethnic Chinese in its borders if the two countries ever go to war?

I don't think that example is applicable in the same way. US practices different ideals, so they wouldn't so that. But they would keep an eye on citizens. Thats what FBI and Homeland do, right? And if chinese nationalists resort to terrorism? That would be dealt with on a case to case basis. That is still different from religious fundamentalism that is well established for its potential for terrorist acts.

US had a history of already of doing this to the Japanese, sp they would not repeat those same mistakes on a time of war, but they have many other methods of collecting information and finding potential spies and whatnot. And generally speaking, Chinese living in US aren't typically of the uneducated, nothing-to-lose type of people who would senselessly resort to terrorism because of propaganda. The situations are nowhere the same, so the same measures are inapllicable.

I mean if we are talking about is discrimination during a war, then the lack of a unified American culture really puts itself in a spot where they are always on alert and willing to fight the case-by-case terrorism, as it does now. It can and will police the situation. In short, it is controllable because the security network is set up to counter those situations.

[ParanoiD84]

Chinese Military Insider opens up 30 years after the Tiananmen Square massacre. Published yesterday so think it fits nice in here.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/w...&section=World

[Triceron]

You're seriously going in to bat for the Chinese government, which as we speak is forcing its citizens into re-education camps?

Course not. I dont agree with the methods at all. But shit happens all around the world, and situations are dealt with differently around the world. This is one of them. China isnt going to stop. Its China. Why the hell is anyone surprised and expecting this to sweep Twitter?

What ever happened to the Rohingya genocide? We denounced one politician and otherwise left the whole thing as a 'bad situation'. This has been happening for two years and is still ongoing mind you.

I don't agree with it but at the same time I see no obvious solution at all, do you? I don't see international decrees being very effective here. This is literally the world being the world amd people concerning themselves where even international powers arent stopping.

We deal with it the same way we do any tragedy in the world. Our thoughts and prayers go out to them.

[Independent voter]

The protestors fought back. This is a picture of a street 1 block away from Tienanmen Square a day after the military opened up with machine guns and killed everyone in Tienanmen Square..

[Post]

Did you even look at the sources, the documentation or anything?

Yes, I did look at the pieces the Twitter propagandist posted.

Same as above really. The death penalty is generally viewed as something countries should have moved past, but the US and China both have it. The same idea that says each can have and enforce that penalty applies to this situation as well.

"But the US does things that aren't as bad!" is the worst defense of this I've ever seen. Not that I've seen many...most people seem to be rational about it.

[Rozz]

"But the US does things that aren't as bad!" is the worst defense of this I've ever seen. Not that I've seen many...most people seem to be rational about it.

I've read their replies in this entire thread and I'm convinced they're bsing about their job and what they do. What's funnier is that they accuse people of using anecdotes and whataboutisms, when that's 90% of their stance.

After 13 pages, I'll be the one to say it: I hope this man and his family will be okay. Apparently no one cares about that, but I do. Prison systems can be hard and I don't want him to be made a brutal example.

[The Stormbringer]

And utopian socialism is as relevant as monarchism nowadays.


Which is exactly why the US has overthrown more democratic governments than any other.


Good thing nobody is doing that.
Those deradicalisation programs are run by the Uyghur themselves.
Like how they did to the Japanese?

You ever gonna reply to this?

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/05/2...ssacre-report/

His house was raided, his personal belongings were confiscated, he was forcibly removed from his home and is being held against his will. Arrested is the word we use in English to describe that kind of event.

On a side note, while I don't agree with pretty much anything Zenkai ever says on these forums, engaging in personal attacks instead of responding to his question is not only poor form on your part, but also against forum policy.

Oh, and you never did respond to question posed by the original post. It's sad, really, because I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on why you seem to think that what they did was okay. It seems like you have no interest in actual dialogue, however, as you name call consistently and never actually give your thoughts and reasoning on the original post. Unfortunate for those of us with open minds and a willingness to discuss things.

[Stelio Kontos]

America actually believes democracy is a good thing and everyone should live under a democracy.

That's just not true. Don't do to America what Kangodo does for China.

Don't be a kool-aid drinker.

[Easo]

Yes, last time tanks were used to keep countries in a block was in 1968.

Never wanted - true. Never let anyone leave - false. Plenty of countries were already let go when you did your independence referendum.

Times change.

Except when those "old farts" tried putsch later, they failed... they didn't have nor guts nor power to "do it again".

Nope, it wasn't "opening the borders" that did it. Things could change a lot more gradually if USSR would be kept intact.

It wasn't worth it.

Vilnius disagrees with that statement. Sure, scale was different. But there was an attempt.

Who was let go? The whole period took about 2 years. There was no first place on the pedestal, it was all one big process.
Yes, suuure they change. And communism can be democratic, mhm. And I am Barrack Obama.
You should fantasize with Kangodo, he seems to be believing that. Though he seems to think that the OG communism was democratic too. xD

Well, if the USSR wasn't so backwards on everything, then maybe the change would not have been so scary, eh? But communists, as all other oppressive regimes, were scared of change. Better to keep the plebs in darkness, otherwise they might rebel. Oh, wait... xD

All communism is democratic, it's the only way the population can actually control the means of production.

Yeah, asked the people who lived there, they loved it so much they started to riot everywhere.

Yes, it was so rotten and backwards that Yeltsin needed the US to meddle in their elections to prevent communism from returning.
The empire of evil is still alive, it's the duty of every person on this world to make sure it ends.

You are a walking meme - how is that seizure of means of productions going for you?
P.S.
This gets really ironic considering that in communism dear Kangodo would not be able to talk freely online.

Good thing nobody is doing that.
Those deradicalisation programs are run by the Uyghur themselves.

Fokken lol.

[Easo]

Sure I would.
I don't think anything I've said would have gotten me banned or anything.

You on the other hand.. Constant lies promoting the far right, you'd have your internet taken away and that's a good thing.

I can totally imagine you being able to speak freely in USSR about things like having more than one party and pre approved list of candidates, saying that capitalism is good, pointing out crimes done by the state, and so on.
Not.

[Easo]

Saying capitalism is good requires you to lie, so of course that gets shut down.

I truly wonder, if you are just being obtuse or really did not get my point.

[shadowmouse]

the worst defense of this I've ever seen.

That's the problem with the polarization of political discussions these days, everything gets forced into a black/white tribe vs tribe template. I don't have a particular interest in "defending" or promoting any political system. My area of interest is in cultures and cross culture communications. I prefer to limit myself to more general discussion in these threads because they're discussed in those terms, but to make a point I'll go into it.

Let's skip the details of this thread's topic for a moment. An underlying friction in these threads is individual freedoms and rights. Where are the US, Canada, and Europe? What we often refer to as the West? Where is China? It gets labeled as Asia. For a basic work on what I'm going to sketch out, you can check: https://www.ebooks.com/en-us/2615358...bett-richarde/

Since this isn't something I expect you and others here to be familiar with, go ahead and fact check this -- is it just academic theory or does it get applied in practical terms? I think you'll find that this general model is widely used in training for international business. I'm going to be taking some quick, dirty shortcuts because I don't have days of lecture for this. Here's a quick comparison chart to stand in for several volumes of work by various authors in the field.



Run down the lists and you'll see that low context cultures tend to place an emphasis on individuals while high context values groups. That's central to the friction over individualism in these threads. Similarly, low context sees society more as a level field, while in high context it is hierarchical. This has a connection to how the role of government is discussed. Specific to the topic of the thread, low context focuses on explicit communication and logic while high context looks more to context and intuition/feelings. You'll see this play out over and over here as people bicker with our few Asian posters and don't get the disconnect in viewpoints.

To try to bring this together somewhat, let's look at where different countries' cultures are said to fall on the high and low context spectrum.


You'll see that China is way out there on the high context side, while most of the posters here will fall much closer to low context. That's a major disconnect. Low context posters are weighing things from a low context perspective and values, whereas the events take place in a high context culture.

And that brings my back to my reply to you. In the international setting, this is also a constant friction. According to sovereignty it falls to each country to make the rules for their people. Within the US, a similar situation exists with state's rights -- where the police power usually rests with the state since it is closest to the people of the state. As probably a low context person, you will see these issues through your own filters and values, those are not the filters and values of the culture where they are taking place and under sovereignty those are what matter -- in the same way that the US defends some values despite Europeans (often even lower context) disagreeing with them.

For my part, as I remarked earlier, my personal political value is that it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, what matters is if it catches mice. My friends and quasi-adoptive family are Chinese. They are well aware of things like Tank Man and the emphasis placed on it by many outside of China, but they aren't shambling around in misery and oppression. Something that is a much hotter topic for them would be the 996 workplace.

[NED funded]

Wait so what country standard are we using that isn't a 'corrupt dystopia'?

Every country has problems, that's why this isn't bigger news than whatever is sweeping Twitter today.

IDK dude, Sweden election results for some reason took over the news cycle when India had elections despite Sweden being completely irrelevant to the US.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

You do something you know will get you arrested, you shouldn't be shocked when you get arrested doing it.

It doesn't matter what that action is. It's 100% his fault for being a fucking moron.

If you don't like the way things are in your particular country (or business, or anything else), there's channels you can go through to try and change it or move to somewhere else more aggreable to you. Just giving a superior military/police force a huge middle finger and acting like a fucking moron isn't going to change anything and just make your life a living hell... and you have no one to blame but your own stupid ass self.