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  1. #41
    Given that most people use the same cookie cutter builds now, I'd trade the modern talents for the older talents any day of the week. Choice is an illusion either way. Right now you've got your best talents in every row, and then talents you sacrifice damage or healing in order to take. No difference from before and the modern system just leaves the class barebones.
    Last edited by Niroshi; 2019-05-26 at 04:01 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I don't have the patience to argue with people that have clearly made up their mind regarding this whether putting a handful of points into another passive talent that barely changes anything is really "another build" in anything but its name.
    Oh, but you agree with the Blizzards quote "hybrid builds never lived up to the mythih"

    Which is 100% false, as i ended up with 2100 rating with a hybrid build for pvp.
    And there were different builds all over the place. Situational builds for PvP and world content.

    But again, Blizzard is ignoring the importance of "player created fun"...its not that they are ignoring it...its that they TRADED "player created fun" for "game balance".

  3. #43
    So, I want to start out by pointing to another MMORPG I played for a while that had a system talent tree system. Rift. It took the talent tree system and vastly expanded upon it. Here's your talent tree calculator to see what it was like. It was the epitome of being able to build your own class in an MMO... and it was quite amazing for the base game and the first expansion. I can't tell you how much fun I had making my own version of each class available.

    Now the game failed, but that was the core of their character progression system before the game went downhill. However, what I saw there in conjunction with vanilla through WotLK taught me something. When it comes to balance for end-game activities... Blizzard is absolutely right. Their points are completely valid, every one of them. Rift had the same problem, the dev team there eventually had to shoehorn those incredibly expansive trees into a space where you had to fill the entire tree (and subsequently use the majority of your talent points) in order to be able to play any form of content.

    There's a problem with that though, everything is being sacrificed on the altar of balance. Any chance to be creative with your character or their builds is being crushed and ground down because the team doesn't want a niche build to be on top for a few minutes. Over the years though, even with the changes to the talent system and the game on the whole... nothing has changed. There's still a meta for every expansion, for every patch and fight there's a sub-meta. On boss X you're going to run a pre-determined set of classes, specs, and talents. It's completely the same as it was in vanilla. Which begs the question, why are we restricting our classes so much if nothing has changed?

    Now, granted, there are exceptions to this where a build is massively broken and has to be dealt with. Those however are few and far between.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Oh, but you agree with the Blizzards quote "hybrid builds never lived up to the mythih"
    I would argue whether taking a single ability over your "ultimate" ability is a true hybrid build.

    I mean, take TBC Destro Lock, that went like 0/21/40, was this a hybrid build? You basically cherrypicked any talent that increased Shadow(bolt) damage and ended up spamming Shadowbolt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Which is 100% false, as i ended up with 2100 rating with a hybrid build for pvp.
    And the most important thing about this is to remember that this is an extremely broad discussion.
    Simply because it worked in a specific example, doesn't mean it worked as a whole.

    Precisely why i've raised hybrid classes as example, you didn't have really of that sort "choice", this entire thing became more and more dysfunctional as time went on and you simply dumped the majority of talents into the tree of your selected role.

    If one of the "bigger advantages" of a certain talent system just doesn't exist for a good chunk of classes due the way this system works, you have to ask yourself if this was truly such a great system for the game as a whole.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-26 at 04:47 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If one of the "bigger advantages" of a certain talent system just doesn't exist for a good chunk of classes due the way this system works, you have to ask yourself if this was truly such a great system for the game as a whole.
    I have proof that Blizzard is really talented and could have created awesome talent trees

    The proof was the creation of Deathknights talent trees in WotlK.
    Blizzard created them from the ground up and it ended as an incredible "hybrid friendly" Class with A LOT of possibilities.

    DK trees proves Blizzard is awesome and could expand on the oldschool trees....if they wanted but they dont, ofc

    But i agree 100% not all classes were as hybrid friendly as others.
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2019-05-26 at 04:54 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Blizzard created them from the ground up and it ended as an incredible "hybrid friendly" Class with A LOT of possibilities.
    You just literally proof that what i was saying in my first post:
    They worked because they synergized.

    All three Trees were designed to have both Dps and Tank abilities, thus every tree had relevant talents regardless of your role.
    On top of that, every Dps DK tree had the basic gist of: Dump Runes with X-Strike; Dump Runic Power with Y, any talent that somehow interacted with runes or runic power thus worked for literally any tree.
    Not to mention that Blizzard simply slapped a bunch of "increases your Strength by X%" into a shit ton of DK talents which obviously worked in any situation.

    Unless you design every tree with that mindset, you cannot replicate this onto other classes, which gets obviously next to impossible for classes that have completely different roles (such as Shaman,Druid,Paladin,Monk) or for classes with specs that do not synergize, such as MM and BM.

    Also, DK had inheritely insane defensive potential compared to other classes, which made them naturally tankier than most.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    I have proof that Blizzard is really talented and could have created awesome talent trees

    The proof was the creation of Deathknights talent trees in WotlK.
    Blizzard created them from the ground up and it ended as an incredible "hybrid friendly" Class with A LOT of possibilities.

    DK trees proves Blizzard is awesome and could expand on the oldschool trees....if they wanted but they dont, ofc

    But i agree 100% not all classes were as hybrid friendly as others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You just literally proof that what i was saying in my first post:
    They worked because they synergized.

    All three Trees were designed to have both Dps and Tank abilities, thus every tree had relevant talents regardless of your role.
    On top of that, every Dps DK tree had the basic gist of: Dump Runes with X-Strike; Dump Runic Power with Y, any talent that somehow interacted with runes or runic power thus worked for literally any tree.
    Not to mention that Blizzard simply slapped a bunch of "increases your Strength by X%" into a shit ton of DK talents which obviously worked in any situation.

    Unless you design every tree with that mindset, you cannot replicate this onto other classes, which gets obviously next to impossible for classes that have completely different roles (such as Shaman,Druid,Paladin,Monk) or for classes with specs that do not synergize, such as MM and BM.

    Also, DK had inheritely insane defensive potential compared to other classes, which made them naturally tankier than most.
    Thought you guys might like having this to look at for your discussion https://wotlkdb.com/?talent#j

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Thought you guys might like having this to look at for your discussion https://wotlkdb.com/?talent#j
    HOLY shit the talent trees were bigger than i remembered ahah

    I loved your post Lythelia, thank you so much for posting, i just didnt know what to say as a reply.
    When i saw Rifts talent trees i had a boner, but decided to never play the game

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    HOLY shit the talent trees were bigger than i remembered ahah

    I loved your post Lythelia, thank you so much for posting, i just didnt know what to say as a reply.
    When i saw Rifts talent trees i had a boner, but decided to never play the game
    Yeah, I'm not sure if this is a case of bigger being better. I mean Kraljin is right about it being clunky. I actually think there's a middle ground between today's system and the vanilla system that might actually work but I'm no dev.

    Thank you! The game was really fun to start. I played a Warrior that went Reaver(unholy DK basically)/Paladin/Paragon (think vanilla Fury) that basically could block without a shield equipped, healed itself every time it block, dodged, or parried, it spread nasty DoTs that would heal for 100% of the damage they dealt, a couple AoEs that could heal for damage done, lay of hands, it dual wielded (could only get parry from swords and block could be on any weapons), and had good damage output. It wasn't super strong in one on one or boss tanking but open world content and trash mobs were it's specialty and it did really well. It was a monster.

    After the game declined and they choked out all the fun builds I just couldn't enjoy it anymore.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure if this is a case of bigger being better. I mean Kraljin is right about it being clunky. I actually think there's a middle ground between today's system and the vanilla system that might actually work but I'm no dev.

    Thank you! The game was really fun to start. I played a Warrior that went Reaver(unholy DK basically)/Paladin/Paragon (think vanilla Fury) that basically could block without a shield equipped, healed itself every time it block, dodged, or parried, it spread nasty DoTs that would heal for 100% of the damage they dealt, a couple AoEs that could heal for damage done, lay of hands, it dual wielded (could only get parry from swords and block could be on any weapons), and had good damage output. It wasn't super strong in one on one or boss tanking but open world content and trash mobs were it's specialty and it did really well. It was a monster.

    After the game declined and they choked out all the fun builds I just couldn't enjoy it anymore.
    Aww man, i love that type of customization. Just reading your crazy build gives me the chills.
    A shame i am now a MMORPG player without a home

    What other game has this type of customization nowadays? ESO?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Aww man, i love that type of customization. Just reading your crazy build gives me the chills.
    A shame i am now a MMORPG player without a home

    What other game has this type of customization nowadays? ESO?
    Eh, ESO is something I indulge in once in a while but it's hard for me to enjoy. I'm not the most up to date with them. Last I saw, you could build your class by choosing your armor type, weapon type, and then put points into skills that would help you kind of find your niche. The problem is they lock you behind only having a few abilities on your bar at a time which is something I hate.

    GW2 is another one that has similar types of customization but again you're locked behind a bar which drives me crazy.

    As far as I'm aware, there really isn't an MMORPG that really develops that "build your own class" kinda thing. Rift was kinda the last bastion of that.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    As far as I'm aware, there really isn't an MMORPG that really develops that "build your own class" kinda thing. Rift was kinda the last bastion of that.
    Homeless MMORPG player it is then

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    "Healing"
    You have essentially the same heal spell(s), the only difference is that in one build your Melee support totems are slightly stronger.
    Which is a huge difference depending on your raid composition. But even outside of a progression type of situation, if you're just doing random questing and grouping - you'd be bringing something different than another Shaman who didn't take that talent.

    And all of them are only marginally different.

    I don't have the patience to argue with people that have clearly made up their mind regarding this whether putting a handful of points into another passive talent that barely changes anything is really "another build" in anything but its name.
    I disagree. I don't think bringing something different to the table or picking different points that change your playstyle are "marginal" in difference.

    But clearly you are set in your mind and don't wish to be challenged, which in that case why even comment at all? Just to nay-say?

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Homeless MMORPG player it is then
    I'm sorry to hear that. I'm watching Pantheon; Rise of the Fallen. It looks interesting but I don't think it has that system.

    Wait...

    I take that back, there is one that is similar to Rift. It's called ArcheAge. I will warn you now, it is grindy and it's an eastern MMO which tend to be a bit different. That said, I do remember you could do some cool things with the talent system. Here's their calculator. I'm not promising anything with it though. It's been a long time for me.
    Last edited by Selah; 2019-05-26 at 06:29 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    I agree with these blue posts. Your ideas are bad and stupid. Old talents sucked. You are not getting them back on retail ever.

    You want to play outdate game with outdated mechanics, classic will be soon there for you. Could you refrain from posting your horrible threads about "old good wow" and just piss off to classic forums? Thanks
    Not a criticism, but more a "How the hell did this get a warning?" thing. I have seen far, FAR worse on these forums, from nastier people who have done nothing but shitpost, de-rail every topic possible, and cause drama everywhere, and get away scott-free.

    Yet this, whilst technically derailing a thread and not on topic, is pretty tame by comparision, and THIS gets the warning?

    Fuck. Me.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    Not a criticism, but more a "How the hell did this get a warning?" thing. I have seen far, FAR worse on these forums, from nastier people who have done nothing but shitpost, de-rail every topic possible, and cause drama everywhere, and get away scott-free.

    Yet this, whilst technically derailing a thread and not on topic, is pretty tame by comparision, and THIS gets the warning?

    Fuck. Me.
    Guess some classic loving mod got tilted, so I take it as a win.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    Guess some classic loving mod got tilted, so I take it as a win.
    Yeh, it is just depressing how utterly shit some of it is. I cannot fathom it tbh.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Which is a huge difference depending on your raid composition.
    Which is kind of stupid due the Vanilla system being rather punishing regarding respecing.
    One of my biggest gripes with this entire argument and those talents in particular - Talents you would never take if someone else would bring them, that combined with the fact that respeccing is a big investment is just not a great design.

    The same goes for any sort of "improves MotW / PW:F / BoX" talent, you need one guy that puts talentpoints into something to improve the group, which is not bad in itself, but if said guy doesn't show up, someone else has to do it, if two of them show up, one of them basically wasted points.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    But even outside of a progression type of situation, if you're just doing random questing and grouping - you'd be bringing something different than another Shaman who didn't take that talent.
    If those bonuses had actually a massive impact, that might've been an argument, but those bonuses aren't.

    These bonuses are barely noticeable unless you apply them in a setting where actually a lot of people (meaning raids) will benefit from it and you're actually doing content where this bonus might make a difference (again, raids).
    If i had gained Windfury, that might be a different story, but all got was a flat bonus on the extra AP of the Bonus hit triggered by WF - that was not a lot.

    And these "builds" were just dead after Classic already, for a variety of reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    But clearly you are set in your mind and don't wish to be challenged, which in that case why even comment at all? Just to nay-say?
    Because in my opinion, attempting to sell every single talent variation as another build that somehow leads to great customization is misleading.

    Your playstyle is still very much same, it's not that you get new abilities to play around with or anything, you just pick up some different passives, or improve some abilities by a slight marigin.

    And if i compare this to current talent system, where i can gain actual abilities with their own niches and augment my playstyle to some extent, that is really a difference.
    To me, it was a revelation to have access to this loads of different abilities once MoP launched - something that i never really had under the old talent system.

    This system was fine for a game like Vanilla, as a progression system where leveling was a bigger deal, but going further it would have just led to more trouble, especially if you look at size of the Trees by the time of Wotlk, that system was not sustainable on the long run.
    Which is quite frankly a factor, as it is not common that games receives new, massive content updates even 15 years after its initial release.

    This entire argument of "customization" usually falls through the floor based on at least one of three points:
    -Did not exist for every Class / spec
    -Did exist only due special circumstances that were changed / removed
    -Did not seriously change the playstyle

  19. #59
    Talent trees as designed for Vanilla and tbc don’t work when you design each spec as a class, which is the direction WoW moved through its history. Furthermore, the game moved from providing a challenge to overcome to providing multiple difficulties that invalidate each other which creates an environment that exasperates min/maxing, driving away any sort of choice the player can make.
    Last edited by jakeic; 2019-05-26 at 07:25 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    This entire argument of "customization" usually falls through the floor based on at least one of three points:
    -Did not exist for every Class / spec
    -Did exist only due special circumstances that were changed / removed
    -Did not seriously change the playstyle
    Every single successfully made hybrid talents did change your playstyle considerably.
    Only for some very specific cases, true.

    But, forgetting WoW for second and talking about all games in general, you do understand the concept of "player created fun" in talents, right?
    And you do understand there is zero "player created fun" in BfA.

    But games like oldschool Rift were able to.
    And there is ZERO games on the market right now (MMORPG's) with this freedom in talents.

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