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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Classes were more complex in MoP yet they used the same talent system.
    I really can't agree with you here.

    But I believe customization were pretty much lost in WotLK and Cata, because old talent system just couldn't work with such huge trees. While i still believe, it was better compared to current system, you was already forced to play "spec" and not "class" and new talent system was just natural evolution of the existing system. I understand why they moved away from old system in cata, it make sense honestly, I am just sad, they allowed old talent system to get into this point, where it doesn't provide much options anyway.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    I really can't agree with you here.

    But I believe customization were pretty much lost in WotLK and Cata, because old talent system just couldn't work with such huge trees. While i still believe, it was better compared to current system, you was already forced to play "spec" and not "class" and new talent system was just natural evolution of the existing system. I understand why they moved away from old system in cata, it make sense honestly, I am just sad, they allowed old talent system to get into this point, where it doesn't provide much options anyway.
    But you are wrong and you just did not have (and still do not) enough knowledge to use the system right.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    But you are wrong and you just did not have (and still do not) enough knowledge to use the system right.
    You are saying current system provide more options and classes are more complex today. Sorry buddy, I am not wrong. You just don't understand that issue.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    You are saying current system provide more options and classes are more complex today. Sorry buddy, I am not wrong. You just don't understand that issue.
    It removes the mandatory ones as they were not really options. It gives you more actual choices instead of illusions of choice. This is no debate and what you belive matters littel.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It removes the mandatory ones as they were not really options. It gives you more actual choices instead of illusions of choice. This is no debate and what you belive matters littel.
    Even devs said that old talent system is too complex, too many variables and options - they basically decided that they will split classes into smaller specs, which are easier to control and give players multiple binary choices. So believe what you want, you are still wrong.

    Also Illusion of choice is BS.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    You are saying current system provide more options and classes are more complex today. Sorry buddy, I am not wrong. You just don't understand that issue.
    Compared to TBC/vanilla I would disagree. As a TBC late vanilla player, I have spent more time changing my talents and playing with them this week than I did throughout the entire expansion of TBC, never mind WOTK on top of that.

  7. #107
    Old talent trees were mostly filler. Though I would like at least a few more rows for the current trees.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by imunreal View Post
    Compared to TBC/vanilla I would disagree. As a TBC late vanilla player, I have spent more time changing my talents and playing with them this week than I did throughout the entire expansion of TBC, never mind WOTK on top of that.
    Last time I played WoW seriously was Legion, so from Legion perspective, I was also changing talents a lot..because it's free. Also any combination of talents really didn't change much. Gimmick of your class is decided by your spec, not build. My build really didn't matter much. I sometimes just forget, what talents I have currently picked and I was still playing in the same way.

    Vanilla and TBC actually provided the most options, how to play single class or even spec. WotLK streamlined talents a lot and removed a lot of customization along the way. If you really feel that in Vanilla or TBC there were less options, I say you were young and not really paying attention to options you had - or you were primary PvE players, so you went with best cookie cutter build.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Last time I played WoW seriously was Legion, so from Legion perspective, I was also changing talents a lot..because it's free. Also any combination of talents really didn't change much. Gimmick of your class is decided by your spec, not build. My build really didn't matter much. I sometimes just forget, what talents I have currently picked and I was still playing in the same way.

    Vanilla and TBC actually provided the most options, how to play single class or even spec. WotLK streamlined talents a lot and removed a lot of customization along the way. If you really feel that in Vanilla or TBC there were less options, I say you were young and not really paying attention to options you had - or you were primary PvE players, so you went with best cookie cutter build.
    I would disagree, as someone that was always interested in raiding and using the best damage builds, the older stuff were more restrictive for me. I have more options now, an ele shaman is my main atm, and I have a few different playstyles to pick from. Back then, I didn’t. The old system didn’t allow me to have that flow, how was there more choice for me back then?

    EDIT: it is good you can admit that as a PVE player, you know that there were no choices in vanilla or TBC.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    So, you acknowledge they exist you just don't think there's a point to them? That's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with them existing.
    It just leaves out a ton of essential parameters, in the old talent system you had more points to spent, congratz, that's the only thing that seemingly matters by your logic here.

    Simply comparing the number of talent (points) really should not be the deciding factor here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    As much that exists in today's game.
    Really?
    Please link me those additional / optional core abilities i could talent into as hybrid dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Don't get me wrong, Icy Fury is cool (pun intended), but you can't tell me that couldn't easily be a talent in a tree. Just like Titan's Grip, one of the most iconic class abilities in the game today and it was a talent in Wrath.
    Yeah, that's where you hit a fundamental issue of the old talent system.

    If you made Icefury a talent in the old talent system, everybody that played Elemental had to adapt to Icefury, what if some people however didn't like Icefury?
    That is a crucial flaw of the old system, Blizzard gave quite a lot of specs no alternative playstyles at all, it enforced a playstyle that you had abide to, deviation not possible.

    Kinda sucks if you want a bit more complexity for your spec and Blizzard straight up tells you "Yeah, it's a simple spec, that's fine".

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Kind of, I mean, that's exactly how it is today except they give you one or two small ways you might be able to change your game-play.
    That's basically 1-2 more ways than i had previously.
    Ignoring additional possible utility abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Eh, I'd argue Legion. Suramar, Class hall campaigns, rifts, and everything circling around the artifact weapons (skins, AP, tints), mage tower, Light's Heart campaign. The big thing BfA really has going for it is WM and that new WM zone battle feature coming, but I'd agree, outside of PvP and M+ there isn't much.
    Comparing a complete expansion to one that's still going doesn't work, 8.2 brings in quite a lot, with 8.3. still being on the horizon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    No, but the argument being given that they (the talent trees) take too much work seems to fall flat.
    I don't think so, because whether they would have spent an equal time developing on that is an assumption on your part.

    The one thing we know is that they straight up said "it's too much work", considering Blizzard are the only ones that actually have some insight knowledge on that front, i would assume that there is some truth to this statement - especially because the "too much work" excuse isn't exactly a good PR move, especially because GC was, at least regarding that, an honest person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    No one does, they also rebuilt almost all the classes from the ground up again come Legion.
    The problem of the Legion rework was that a lot of classes ironically ended up with an eerily similiar playstyle.

    The bare bones of the current Elemental and Balance rotation are currently very similiar, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Of course it does. They removed options from classes and put them back as talents.. Shaman in TBC or WotLK was more complex without talents than current shamans with talents.
    This is just one of those blatant lies that anyone who has some basic understanding can detect without issue.

    Wotlk Elemental was braindead:
    Keep searing up (Lasted one whole minute)
    Keep FS up (No other Shock to worry about)
    Use Lvb on CD (fixed 8 sec CD, no Lava surge procs)
    Use LB

    Throw in a CL, depending on Haste / Mana.

    Now compare that to the current Master of the Elements / Icefury build, it's not even close, if you're looking for a spec that presses a lot of different buttons and requires constant attention regarding procs, try it out.

    Minor sidenote, Elemental was an utterly dysfunctional spec regarding AoE in Wotlk.
    And before you pull the "pruning" card, Shaman is probably one of the least affected classes by WoD / Legion pruning.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    While I wasn't big fan of dual spec either, at least, you couldn't just fine-tune your build on the fly. I think their current approach for talents did the same thing like their skill system in Diablo 3 - there are no builds, just CoD style loadouts.
    The game simply moved away from that and i'll doubt you'll find anyone who would give up the flexibility provided by it.
    "I would tank but i'm dps currently and i won't respec" happened tad too often during Vanilla / TBC.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Little nuances like that are why the old talent system was great because two healers of the same class and spec could bring different things to the table.
    And kinda dropped in value if you were not in the Melee group that night, better farm some gold to respec, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    I disagree, because in Classic if you were a Mage going Fire/Frost or Frost/Arcane, or 100% Fire, or 100% Frost, etc. Your playstyle was changed quite differently.
    Your spec basically defined what kind of filler you spammed.
    Rest was up to your Manareg (or combat duration by that).

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    You only get the abilities Blizzard says you should have.
    Do please list me all those additional core abilities hybrid specs could get (You know, outside of stuff like Crusader Strike / Vampiric Touch).

    Literally every single person i am discussing this topic dodges this question, because it just undermines your entire narrative.
    Blizzard gave a lot of specs one set of abilities, you liked them or you could fuck off, additional options? Nope.

    On top of that, this argument also applies to the old talent system, it's just one of those lies that the old talent system magically filled your bar with different abilities.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by imunreal View Post
    I would disagree, as someone that was always interested in raiding and using the best damage builds, the older stuff were more restrictive for me. I have more options now, an ele shaman is my main atm, and I have a few different playstyles to pick from. Back then, I didn’t. The old system didn’t allow me to have that flow, how was there more choice for me back then?

    EDIT: it is good you can admit that as a PVE player, you know that there were no choices in vanilla or TBC.
    lol

    tell me more, at start of bfa you picked best damaging talents and forgot that you could press "talent" button unless you need to respec
    at least in legion you had to swap between aoe and st, now you just pick the best, and don't say I'm wrong, coz I'm not. you either pick the best or your choice doesn't matter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    This is just one of those blatant lies that anyone who has some basic understanding can detect without issue.

    Wotlk Elemental was braindead:
    Keep searing up (Lasted one whole minute)
    Keep FS up (No other Shock to worry about)
    Use Lvb on CD (fixed 8 sec CD, no Lava surge procs)
    Use LB

    Throw in a CL, depending on Haste / Mana.

    Now compare that to the current Master of the Elements / Icefury build, it's not even close, if you're looking for a spec that presses a lot of different buttons and requires constant attention regarding procs, try it out.

    Minor sidenote, Elemental was an utterly dysfunctional spec regarding AoE in Wotlk.
    And before you pull the "pruning" card, Shaman is probably one of the least affected classes by WoD / Legion pruning.
    sure, because all the totems were pruned earlier xD
    why do you write this wall of text is the question, because you are ill if you try to defend current style of gameplay

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Trbn View Post
    sure, because all the totems were pruned earlier xD
    why do you write this wall of text is the question, because you are ill if you try to defend current style of gameplay
    I think you're the sick one if you seriously enjoyed all those buff totems post TBC.

    Because after all, all of them were, due to their range limitation, inferior versions of the same buffs brought by other classes.
    Wotlk Strength of the Earth Totem was just worse than Horn of Winter, period.
    Same goes for Manaspring and Blessing of Wisdom.
    And so forth.

    Also, simply because i like one specific system, doesn't mean i enjoy literally anything, but i guess anything beyond black and white is beyond your scope.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-27 at 04:25 PM.

  13. #113
    Over 9000! Grimbold21's Avatar
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    What's wrong with a multitude of options? I mean, alright, WoW might end up like PoE, but then again, it's already Diablo is

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    @kaminaris What do you think about this?
    No, leave damage and current "trees" as they are. They would need to add another system for utility and that might be a tree.
    For this to work damage would be as it is now. They might remove all utilities from there and leave current talents for damage.

    This way some classes wouldn't be so bad in M+ if they balanced trees about utility and not forcing some classes to be dps turrets.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The game simply moved away from that and i'll doubt you'll find anyone who would give up the flexibility provided by it.
    "I would tank but i'm dps currently and i won't respec" happened tad too often during Vanilla / TBC.
    From current playerbase? Perhaps. But I would find tons of people, who already left wow, who want old school "build" system to return.

    One of the reason, why D3 failed so hard was lack of customization. And while I understand WoW is different game, tons of people dislike current "loadout" system.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by imunreal View Post
    I would disagree, as someone that was always interested in raiding and using the best damage builds, the older stuff were more restrictive for me. I have more options now, an ele shaman is my main atm, and I have a few different playstyles to pick from. Back then, I didn’t. The old system didn’t allow me to have that flow, how was there more choice for me back then?

    EDIT: it is good you can admit that as a PVE player, you know that there were no choices in vanilla or TBC.
    I think I should use disclaimer in my posts - Everything i discuss here is from PvP perspective

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    And while I understand WoW is different game, tons of people dislike current "loadout" system.
    I doubt you have numbers to support that.

    Because it's just one of those things were pros by far outweigh the cons and anyone who has played before dual spec can attest to those "cons".

    I'm just not seeing it, not even regarding classic i don't see a lot of people looking forward to a lack of dual spec or its derivates, whereas a ton of other "inconveniences" is actually among them.

    Fun fact, handful of private servers capped the respec cost at 5g.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-27 at 06:14 PM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    No, leave damage and current "trees" as they are. They would need to add another system for utility and that might be a tree.
    For this to work damage would be as it is now. They might remove all utilities from there and leave current talents for damage.

    This way some classes wouldn't be so bad in M+ if they balanced trees about utility and not forcing some classes to be dps turrets.
    The image i posted is is actually "fun" IMO.
    The last point in damage is only there to spicy things up.

    You know what will happen?

    All PVE'ers will pick the cookiw cutter damage option (as always) and the PvP players will have a WHOLE WORLD OF FUN to pick from.

    A PvP player will be gifted the dilema: "Shall i go more 3% damamage...but wait...i can pick so much utility if i dont go for the damage...what shall i ever do!?!"

    Its fun IMO

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I doubt you have numbers to support that.

    Because it's just one of those things were pros by far outweigh the cons and anyone who has played before dual spec can attest to those "cons".

    I'm just not seeing it, not even regarding classic i don't see a lot of people looking forward to a lack of dual spec or its derivates, whereas a ton of other "inconveniences" is actually among them.

    Fun fact, handful of private servers capped the respec cost at 5g.
    I don't think you have any numbers to support it either. There were also private servers, which left respec cap at 50g..so..

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    I don't think you have any numbers to support it either. There were also private servers, which left respec cap at 50g..so..
    Okay, your point now?
    I didn't claim that there were "tons of people", you made the statement, not my job to job disprove your unsubstantiated claims, burden of proof is upon you.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Okay, your point now?
    I didn't claim that there were "tons of people", you made the statement, not my job to job disprove your unsubstantiated claims, burden of proof is upon you.
    My point is you are wrong. You said " i'll doubt you'll find anyone who would give up the flexibility provided by it." Which is just false.

    I was there when Dual spec was announced and introduced and no matter what you believe, it wasn't all cheering. There was quite a lot of resistance on chat, in my guild, on forum. There were thrown arguments back and forth - it wasn't universally loved feature. Some of my friends liked it, some of my friends hated it - same with my guild and I am sure you could see polarized opinions basically anywhere. Even devs said that it was pretty much 50:50 split in development team.

    You still believe that people want play games, especially MMORPGs, for efficiency. This is wrong and until you will get this from your head, you always will be wrong. Yes, current WoW players are all or mostly "efficient" players, because that's how game is played for years - so where are these people, who are not big fans of this approach? Well, they are gone.

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