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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    You still believe that people want play games, especially MMORPGs, for efficiency.
    Perhaps one should seek the golden middle? Between convenience and inconvenience? Apply it there it makes sense and keep it out where it causes problems? Discuss the pros and cons, but whatever.

    This my last reply towards you, because i don't have to argue with people who simply assume my stance on a massively broad topic (like why do people MMO's) based on a single topic.
    Who, on top of that, has nothing to support their extremely subjective claims, but just tells me "how it is".

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Perhaps one should seek the golden middle? Between convenience and inconvenience? Apply it there it makes sense and keep it out where it causes problems? Discuss the pros and cons, but whatever.

    This my last reply towards you, because i don't have to argue with people who simply assume my stance on a massively broad topic (like why do people MMO's) based on a single topic.
    Who, on top of that, has nothing to support their extremely subjective claims, but just tells me "how it is".
    Golden middle doesn't exists. It's just wide spectrum of different preferences and this is what I am saying all the time. You are the one, who is saying words like "noone" and "nope, it isn't like that" without argument. I recognize different people want different things. I am not sure if you do.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    And kinda dropped in value if you were not in the Melee group that night, better farm some gold to respec, yes?
    Well there's that issue, but that's more of a problem with Blizzard and not the system itself. For example, the current system doesn't have ridiculous respec costs. Now add an increasing respec cost to the current system. That makes it a problem.

    If the old system didn't have an unneeded gold sink cost you wouldn't have to complain about it.


    Your spec basically defined what kind of filler you spammed.
    Rest was up to your Manareg (or combat duration by that).
    Why is that an issue + how is that any different from today?

    In TBC on my Affliction Warlock, I had 3-4 DoTs to use. Today, I have roughly the same.

    I didn't play a Druid in Classic, but in Cata my Druid mostly spammed Moonfire + Wrath. It's pretty much the same today.

    Core abilities are always going to be a huge part of a class' rotation.

    The difference is, back then you could augment the core abilities that YOU wanted to, no matter your spec. Today you cannot do that. You're forced to deal with the augments Blizzard wants and the abilities they want you to have - aside from 6 points.


    Do please list me all those additional core abilities hybrid specs could get (You know, outside of stuff like Crusader Strike / Vampiric Touch).

    Literally every single person i am discussing this topic dodges this question, because it just undermines your entire narrative.
    Blizzard gave a lot of specs one set of abilities, you liked them or you could fuck off, additional options? Nope.

    On top of that, this argument also applies to the old talent system, it's just one of those lies that the old talent system magically filled your bar with different abilities.
    First of all, I didn't allege that you got a bunch of core hybrid spec abilities. I said that you had access to more abilities back then than you do right now. Which is verifiable and true. You got the abilities from ALL specs - aside from a few that were talent specific, and then specing into a specific tree would buff those abilities so you could specialize. In today's system that isn't what happens. Blizzard locks you out of the abilities they don't think you need for your role and limits you to a few. And then you can proceed to pick a few more. And second, your rotation changes based on the abilities you've empowered with your points. I've been quite vocal in that regard.

    But for an example, look at Mage. If you wanted to be a Frost Mage who subs in Fire, then you could put points down the Frost tree to empower your frost spells. But you could then put some of your points into Fire, powering up your Fireball spell (Improved Fireball to reduce cast time, Flame Throwing to increase its range) and then you'd have a reason to add Fireball to your rotation. Or if you want to be a pure Fire Mage and grab Combustion, you can decide if you want to put the rest of your points into Fire to make your fire spells even more potent or go down Arcane to grab Arcane Concentration (for the clearcasting bonus) or invest a bit in Frost to get Elemental Precision (6% less chance opponents can resist your Frost/Fire spell) and some defensive talents.

    I'm aware in a raid setting it's more clearcut but that's always how it's going to be. Raiders are min/maxers and as such will always have a defined way of doing things. The same is still true today and the new talent system didn't fix that, but it did destroy options.You had options when playing solo and those options were dependent on your personal preference + what you wanted to do.

    In today's system you aren't able to make decisions like that because they're chosen for you. Today's system is nowhere near the freedom you had in Classic.

  4. #124
    People still believe what blizzard says ? seriously...

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    If the old system didn't have an unneeded gold sink cost you wouldn't have to complain about it.
    I'd still argue that it wasn't very interesting and it just didn't feel great if you had invest talents into support talent that didn't exactly stack well.

    Take Windrush Totem on Live for example, if you have multiple Shaman, you have multiple totems, which is great because they stack just fine.

    If you had instead of Windrush totem a "deal x% more damage" Totem (which doesn't stack), you would have to check whether another Shaman is present, make up with him / her who select the damage totem and who doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Why is that an issue + how is that any different from today?
    That a serious question?

    Did you have to manage Astral Power, Soul shards (the ones that consumed for actual useable damage abilities)?
    Were there any procs out to watch for?
    Did you ever ask yourself: "Maybe i should play Talent X on that fight" during Classic?

    Like, do really want to on record and say that you don't notice any difference between the MoP - BfA era and classic regarding (class) gameplay?

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    But for an example, look at Mage. If you wanted to be a Frost Mage who subs in Fire, then you could put points down the Frost tree to empower your frost spells. But you could then put some of your points into Fire, powering up your Fireball spell (Improved Fireball to reduce cast time, Flame Throwing to increase its range) and then you'd have a reason to add Fireball to your rotation.
    The big question is why?

    Why would you suddenly decide to, nah fuck it, i want to cast some Fireballs instead of Frostbolts?
    If i have invested quite a lot of talentpoints into an ability, why would i also put talentpoints into another that directly competes with this ability?

    Like, if i wanted to apply a slow, okay, reasonable argument, but then i could just use Frostbolt Rank 1 or Cone of Cold without investing 5 or more talentpoints into an ability that is due previously spent talentpoints not that useful by comparison.

    It's not you suddenly get some proc that makes Frostbolt better or something, it's you suddenly going into a different direction entirely without reason.

    Even if you want to argue over something like Resistance (meaning Fire Elementals), then it was simply a wise choice to move your talentpoints into that tree that avoids this issue entirely.

    You essentially gimp your character for no reason, this is by no means a "raider" thing, but simply how it worked on literally any level.

    Just to give an example where i am coming from, if someone plays Frost, but has Improved Blizzard selected, because he wants to do some AoE farming afterwards, that's fine to me, then he's marginally worse, but has some of them few impactful abilities in Vanilla instead to do something cool, that's fine with me.
    But if i see someone that plays fire, but then suddenly puts five points into Imp. Frostbolt, (if talent inspection were a thing) i struggle to think off a rational solution.
    "Because i want to" is in my opinion simply not a great explanation, one should at least put it into words what they like about it.

    Things like that weren't not really great costumization, it was just a red flag for other people.

    In my opinion, it would be a wiser choice to actually push forward and make clear you want some "Frostfire Mage" (if that's your fantasy) rather than ask for system that you want to use you in a way that wasn't even intended to be used that way in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    You got the abilities from ALL specs could specialize.
    And that's just kinda the question whether you used those abilities.
    Once you're deep into Fire, you're not going to use Arcane Missiles or Arcane Blast (from TBC and onwards) outside of fringe situations, because it's just strictly worse than Fireball.

    Similiar thing for hybrid, okay i got more healing spells, what now?
    Are those abilities actually effective? From TBC and onwards, hardly, because as talent trees grew bigger, so did the difference between specialized abilities and non specialized.

    Second, do those abilities actually support my role? If i'm a Shaman, having access to Chain Heal, Healing Rain, both lesser and greater healing wave is nice...but doesn't really help me accomplish what i want to do if i'm Ele or Enhance.
    This is where it all loops back to the point that these additional barely mattered anymore if those specs did not have a lot of common ground to stand on.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    I agree with these blue posts. Your ideas are bad and stupid. Old talents sucked. You are not getting them back on retail ever.

    You want to play outdate game with outdated mechanics, classic will be soon there for you. Could you refrain from posting your horrible threads about "old good wow" and just piss off to classic forums? Thanks
    THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

    Thank you so much.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It just leaves out a ton of essential parameters, in the old talent system you had more points to spent, congratz, that's the only thing that seemingly matters by your logic here.

    Simply comparing the number of talent (points) really should not be the deciding factor here.
    I've made a point of saying builds and specs, as far as I'm aware I've said nothing that indicates I'm talking about the number of points to spend.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Really?
    Please link me those additional / optional core abilities i could talent into as hybrid dps.



    Yeah, that's where you hit a fundamental issue of the old talent system.

    If you made Icefury a talent in the old talent system, everybody that played Elemental had to adapt to Icefury, what if some people however didn't like Icefury?
    That is a crucial flaw of the old system, Blizzard gave quite a lot of specs no alternative playstyles at all, it enforced a playstyle that you had abide to, deviation not possible.
    I've merged these quotes together for one reason. They're both contradicted by the example I gave in the post you quoted. Titan's Grip wasn't a requirement when it was introduced. It was cool but it wasn't required to be viable (since that's the standard you've put forth) and warriors during that expansion had a choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Kinda sucks if you want a bit more complexity for your spec and Blizzard straight up tells you "Yeah, it's a simple spec, that's fine".
    I mean... that's all Demon Hunters have been since they were introduced. They've intentionally built some specs to be more simple than others, that's be true through the history of the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That's basically 1-2 more ways than i had previously.
    Ignoring additional possible utility abilities.
    They've given you one to two more obvious ways, like I mentioned in the rest of the quote, even when Blizzard did that with the old system, you could work around that with the system. Often more than one way too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Comparing a complete expansion to one that's still going doesn't work, 8.2 brings in quite a lot, with 8.3. still being on the horizon.
    That's fair, the only problem here is that the only things I listed that weren't there during the launch cycle was the mage tower and the rifts. Everything else was there from the start and then expanded upon more so over the expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I don't think so, because whether they would have spent an equal time developing on that is an assumption on your part.
    It's also an assumption to say the current system is easier to work on. So...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The one thing we know is that they straight up said "it's too much work", considering Blizzard are the only ones that actually have some insight knowledge on that front, i would assume that there is some truth to this statement - especially because the "too much work" excuse isn't exactly a good PR move, especially because GC was, at least regarding that, an honest person.
    You say it isn't a good PR move but then use that to shed a good light on Ghost Crawler. It couldn't have been that poor of a move.

    Beyond that though, you and I are both just wildly speculating at this point. Neither of us know, to me it seems that rebuilding your classes several times is going to be more work than messing with trees. You disagree. That's all there really is there.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I think you're the sick one if you seriously enjoyed all those buff totems post TBC.

    Because after all, all of them were, due to their range limitation, inferior versions of the same buffs brought by other classes.
    Wotlk Strength of the Earth Totem was just worse than Horn of Winter, period.
    Same goes for Manaspring and Blessing of Wisdom.
    And so forth.

    Also, simply because i like one specific system, doesn't mean i enjoy literally anything, but i guess anything beyond black and white is beyond your scope.
    it's not about black and white, it's about you not saying all the thruth

    and when you got caught you start with this "grey" nonsence

    shaman was the most pruned class in the game, probably comparable only to paladin

    and you can't deny it. probably that gameplay was slow, but it wasn't similar to today arcade rythmic thing where you must press button ASAP when something got highlighted

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I'd still argue that it wasn't very interesting and it just didn't feel great if you had invest talents into support talent that didn't exactly stack well.

    Take Windrush Totem on Live for example, if you have multiple Shaman, you have multiple totems, which is great because they stack just fine.

    If you had instead of Windrush totem a "deal x% more damage" Totem (which doesn't stack), you would have to check whether another Shaman is present, make up with him / her who select the damage totem and who doesn't.
    This is something that is a problem with balancing, not the system itself. Again, if the live Windrush totem didn't stack you'd probably have the same criticism. Likewise, if the Windrush totem deal % more damage did stack, why complain?

    Blizzard could have balanced these things and not fixed it.


    Did you have to manage Astral Power, Soul shards (the ones that consumed for actual useable damage abilities)?
    Always had to manage Soulshards, especially as a destro Warlock.

    Astral Power, no, but meh. I don't care for it one way or the other.

    Were there any procs out to watch for?
    Yup. Nightfall as Warlock, for one.

    Did you ever ask yourself: "Maybe i should play Talent X on that fight" during Classic?
    Yes. I found myself theorycrafting things constantly, more-so back then than today.

    Like, do really want to on record and say that you don't notice any difference between the MoP - BfA era and classic regarding (class) gameplay?
    That's not what I said. I said you're always going to spam a filler spell. That's not a negative for the old system.



    Why would you suddenly decide to, nah fuck it, i want to cast some Fireballs instead of Frostbolts?
    If i have invested quite a lot of talentpoints into an ability, why would i also put talentpoints into another that directly competes with this ability?
    Because you can? Because maybe you want to change things up a bit? Maybe you want to do something different?

    There were several times I experimented with new builds to change up my playstyle. The point is that you cannot do the same today. The talents matter very little.

    Like, if i wanted to apply a slow, okay, reasonable argument, but then i could just use Frostbolt Rank 1 or Cone of Cold without investing 5 or more talentpoints into an ability that is due previously spent talentpoints not that useful by comparison.
    But that Frostbolt Rank 1 would deal less damage, have a less impactful slow, and longer cast time if you didn't invest those points. You were investing points to change the power and potency of spells. So if you wanted a more powerful / quicker slow - you could do that. Or if you wanted to forego that more powerful / quicker slow, you could invest more into raw power.

    You had options.

    It's not you suddenly get some proc that makes Frostbolt better or something, it's you suddenly going into a different direction entirely without reason.
    See above.

    You essentially gimp your character for no reason, this is by no means a "raider" thing, but simply how it worked on literally any level.
    Again, not true at all. It's not "gimping" your character if there was a benefit. For example, if I'm a Mage you may consider it "gimping" my character if I'm not taking all DPS+ talents and instead investing some into the Frost tree. I consider it making my character more durable for solo play.

    Or you may consider my Warlock "gimped" because I'm not taking all dps talents but instead choose talents that increase the amount of life I'm draining back. To me that's not gimping, that's making me have more survivability.

    You cannot say it's how it worked on every level because that's a flat out lie. The only level that's moderately true on is raiding / progression. Elsewise there was no formula for what was best.

    Just to give an example where i am coming from, if someone plays Frost, but has Improved Blizzard selected, because he wants to do some AoE farming afterwards, that's fine to me, then he's marginally worse, but has some of them few impactful abilities in Vanilla instead to do something cool, that's fine with me.
    Which you cannot do today.

    But if i see someone that plays fire, but then suddenly puts five points into Imp. Frostbolt, (if talent inspection were a thing) i struggle to think off a rational solution.
    "Because i want to" is in my opinion simply not a great explanation, one should at least put it into words what they like about it.
    And I have put it into words. In the example you gave, Imp. Frostbolt would allow said Mage to get off a Frostbolt at 2.5 seconds vs. 3 seconds. It may not seem like a lot of time, but that 0.5 seconds can be huge in a combat situation. Can you not seriously see how that might give said Mage a slight advantage over another Mage who didn't take that talent?

    In my opinion, it would be a wiser choice to actually push forward and make clear you want some "Frostfire Mage" (if that's your fantasy) rather than ask for system that you want to use you in a way that wasn't even intended to be used that way in the first place.
    That's just one example though, there are dozens.

    And that's just kinda the question whether you used those abilities.
    Once you're deep into Fire, you're not going to use Arcane Missiles or Arcane Blast (from TBC and onwards) outside of fringe situations, because it's just strictly worse than Fireball.
    Once you're really deep into Fire? Probably not. But if you went half into Fire and half into Arcane? You could figure that out based on how you customized your character. But you should still have the option.

    Similiar thing for hybrid, okay i got more healing spells, what now?
    Are those abilities actually effective? From TBC and onwards, hardly, because as talent trees grew bigger, so did the difference between specialized abilities and non specialized.
    Yes. I healed many dungeons as a Hybrid Disc / Holy Priest, or my Balance / Resto Druid in TBC.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Trbn View Post
    shaman was the most pruned class in the game, probably comparable only to paladin
    If you want to count down every single buff totem, sure.
    Like if you want to have an concession on that, there, have it, now please argue over actually relevant stuff, because those buff totems lost a lot of their relevance past TBC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Titan's Grip wasn't a requirement when it was introduced.
    It absolutely was, they just slapped a malus on it because it was too OP.

    It was one of those "choices" where you just gimped your character in every single situation by not taking it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    It was cool but it wasn't required to be viable (since that's the standard you've put forth) and warriors during that expansion had a choice.
    They only had a choice during Cata, during Wotlk Titan's Grip was flat out better.
    And it solely worked because those talents were based on their weapon type, as the choice was defined by your weapons.

    Taking both talents did not yield a gain in anything but flexibility and less respec costs.

    The same idea doesn't work for a regular spell, if i put Icefury into a talent tree, how do i leave people the option to not pick without extremely hampering their performance?
    I would have to create an alternative talent that is somehow exclusive with Icefury, which sounds a lot like the current talent system.

    Same as Divine Storm for Ret (Or literally any other core ability within a talent tree), there just was no alternative option, if you didn't take, you just made your character worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    I mean... that's all Demon Hunters have been since they were introduced. They've intentionally built some specs to be more simple than others, that's be true through the history of the game.
    And even DH's have alternate playstyles, don't they? With some being more or less complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    They've given you one to two more obvious ways, like I mentioned in the rest of the quote, even when Blizzard did that with the old system, you could work around that with the system. Often more than one way too.
    Again, please highlight to me all those alternate playstyles (actual playstyles, not just random buff passive included) in particular those Hybrid dps.
    Or Healing specs outside of Priest, but like as actual healers, not people that buff others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    It's also an assumption to say the current system is easier to work on. So...
    Considering they sticked with the system and doubled down in by even introducing spec specific talents (after all, in MoP all specs had one shared talent tree) i would say yes.

    If it was simpler / better for them, i think they would have went back by now, the MoP Talentsystem now lasted (at least in terms of expansion count) longer than the Pre Cata Talent system.
    Especially for a team that has made quite a few decisions based on the longterm sustain of the game (which ironically caused a shit ton of BfA's issues) rather than short term entertainment, in particular regarding class design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    You say it isn't a good PR move but then use that to shed a good light on Ghost Crawler. It couldn't have been that poor of a move.
    Why not? Saying that your team cannot do it is usually a big concession for a company, they generally avoid saying that, rather raise "other concerns" why they're not doing it.

    I take it that GC was honest by saying that, because he straight up raised development issues, rather than just leaving conveniently leaving it out by saying "you think you do, but you don't".

    Take the counter example, classic servers, before the announcement in 2017, how many times has Blizzard said: "It's not financially sustainable for us".
    I don't remember them saying that, ever.
    Rather stuff like "You think you do but you don't" or "We don't want to split the community".

    The truth came out shortly after they announced it: they found a way to get classic running on their current WoW server infrastructure, meaning in other words, if they hadn't found a solution to this technical problem, Classic would have most likely never happened as the thing would not be profitable for the company as they would have to run two MMO's simultaneously.

    Blizzard was kinda misleading the community by raising strictly philosphical issues when in reality, a technical problem was the deciding factor.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Oh, but you agree with the Blizzards quote "hybrid builds never lived up to the mythih"

    Which is 100% false, as i ended up with 2100 rating with a hybrid build for pvp.
    And there were different builds all over the place. Situational builds for PvP and world content.

    But again, Blizzard is ignoring the importance of "player created fun"...its not that they are ignoring it...its that they TRADED "player created fun" for "game balance".
    With what, a cookie cutter build made by someone who pushed higher than 2100?

    How is that somehow more interesting, just because you pressed a few extra talents?

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    With what, a cookie cutter build made by someone who pushed higher than 2100?

    How is that somehow more interesting, just because you pressed a few extra talents?
    Its "a thing" only us "snowflake customizers" understand.

    Its a snowflake feeling of knowing you are different from everyone else and at the same time being useful...and sometimes even amazing!

    My build was designed for 5v5 arena and 100% survival.
    All gemed with stamina in all slots and a meta gem to........less time during stun? (i cant remember, it had something to do with stuns)

    I was 100% survival mode...i was incredible...i was unique from everyone else...and still capable of putting up a fight.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Its "a thing" only us "snowflake customizers" understand.

    Its a snowflake feeling of knowing you are different from everyone else and at the same time being useful...and sometimes even amazing!

    My build was designed for 5v5 arena and 100% survival.
    All gemed with stamina in all slots and a meta gem to........less time during stun? (i cant remember, it had something to do with stuns)

    I was 100% survival mode...i was incredible...i was unique from everyone else...and still capable of putting up a fight.
    But you weren't anymore unique than anyone taking the same build off of a suggested guide.

    If it was something that was viable it would be all over websites and people would be using it.

    And if it's a matter of feeling unique, why would that suddenly change now? Hell just the other day I ran into a demo lock in an M+ who was running different talent choices than me and was still pulling his weight.
    Why? Because there's only like 2 talents that are literally just "DON'T PICK THIS" level, the rest are flexible and you can pick what you like mostly. Azerite influences that of course but still.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    But you weren't anymore unique than anyone taking the same build off of a suggested guide.

    If it was something that was viable it would be all over websites and people would be using it.

    And if it's a matter of feeling unique, why would that suddenly change now? Hell just the other day I ran into a demo lock in an M+ who was running different talent choices than me and was still pulling his weight.
    Why? Because there's only like 2 talents that are literally just "DON'T PICK THIS" level, the rest are flexible and you can pick what you like mostly. Azerite influences that of course but still.
    I only play Rogue and Demon Hunter PvP in BfA.

    And there is literally no choice to be had. There is (if anything) one Talent free space open for choice....MAYBE!

    Edit: Compared to the uniqueness of my previous build in WotlK...which was amazing...this is nothing
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2019-05-28 at 03:47 PM.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Again, if the live Windrush totem didn't stack you'd probably have the same criticism.
    Of course, but due the way Windrush works, that doesn't make much sense.
    To draw proper comparison on live, imagine if Bloodlust / Time Warp would be a talent, how fun is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Likewise, if the Windrush totem deal % more damage did stack, why complain?
    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Blizzard could have balanced these things and not fixed it.
    Sure, but then that's an open invitation for class stacking, unless the damage increase is on a <1% level.
    Which is a nightmare to balance, they tried that Stormlash, it didn't exactly work out.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Always had to manage Soulshards, especially as a destro Warlock.
    Kinda an "archaic" take on the resource system, not really compareable with the modern system.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Astral Power, no, but meh. I don't care for it one way or the other.
    Ever tried playing Balance and "not caring" about Astral Power?
    Like seriously, this response is just golden.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Yup. Nightfall as Warlock, for one.
    Pretty much the only proc in the Vanilla era.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Yes. I found myself theorycrafting things constantly, more-so back then than today.
    And i didn't, who's right now?
    Decent talents were figured out quite quickly, stat variation wasn't much of a thing back then.

    At best, figuring out the BiS List was a big deal, because it was a rubicks cube with fixed pieces before they introduced reforging.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    I said you're always going to spam a filler spell. That's not a negative for the old system.
    Yes, and the major difference is that for a lot caster specs, the entire rotation consisted out of said filler spell.
    The world "filler" in itself already implies that you also press other buttons and only press that button inbetween, hence the name "filler spell".

    Your "filler" were your "rotation".

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Because you can? Because maybe you want to change things up a bit? Maybe you want to do something different?
    And you can't do that on live?
    I mean, if you don't care that much about performance, which you probably don't if you suddeny want to spam Frostbolts despite having lots of points in Fire, you can basically choose any talent you want.

    You can even switch to an entirely different spec at will.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    The talents matter very little.
    [Opinion]
    I think they do.

    Which is, by the way, not a flaw of the system, but a flaw of its execution, which is a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Again, not true at all. It's not "gimping" your character if there was a benefit. For example, if I'm a Mage you may consider it "gimping" my character if I'm not taking all DPS+ talents and instead investing some into the Frost tree. I consider it making my character more durable for solo play.

    The thing was just, if you cared about durability, you can just go even further into Frost and deal more damage.
    This is the point where i struggle to find objective reasons beyond "because i can".

    If you want to level and go all out damage, Fire may be your spec, if you want durability, Frost is the choice.

    By the time you picked up all those "durability talents" from Frost, you're already so invested into Frost that actually powerful talents outside of Imp. Fireball are already out of your reach in Fire (or you just get them once you're like 50+), while good Frost talents lie at your feet.

    This is the big problem of those talent trees, they rewarded you for putting more points into a single tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Or you may consider my Warlock "gimped" because I'm not taking all dps talents but instead choose talents that increase the amount of life I'm draining back. To me that's not gimping, that's making me have more survivability.
    The problem here is that, unless you talented your way further into Affliction, your Drain Life did like 10% more damage, without any further talent(s) supporting that, those 10% aren't improving your durability by that much.
    And if you've taken Shadow Mastery, well, you're not really playing a hybrid spec anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    The only level that's moderately true on is raiding / progression. Elsewise there was no formula for what was best.
    And what has basically become the focus of WoW since TBC?
    Yes, the endgame, primarily dungeons & raids.

    I've said in my first / second post in this thread, the old talent trees were quite decent for leveling, they were cool as you slowly progressed your character.
    But as WoW has moved (rather early its lifespan in hindsight) towards a game focused on the endgame, those talent trees became very clunky and not flexible for a lot of classes / spec.

    Even if i give those hybrid builds some legitimacy, by the time Wotlk rolled around, Blizzard cramped those talent trees so full of spec specific beneficial stuff, that the gap between someone who had certain passive talents and one who didn't grew too damn big.
    (Not to mention that leveling at this point was already rather easy / fast by comparison)

    Like, compare the amount of talents of the classic Fire that improved the damage of Fireball, directly or indirectly.
    Classic:
    -Imp Fireball
    -Ignite
    -Critical Mass
    -Fire Power
    -Imp Scorch (kinda as it increases Fire damage)

    Four talents.

    Now compare that to Wotlk:
    https://db.rising-gods.de/?talent#oZZhbc

    At least i ended up with a two digit number of talents.

    My point here is, someone that attempts to go for a hybrid build, gets quite a lot of powerful talents (like Hot Streak) so late that any advantage isn't really worth getting, because they're a huge increase.
    If you want the durability of Frost, you might as well start getting all those juicy frost talents, such as Brain Freeze for FoF.

    This gap just grew wider with each expansion, as every newly introduced talents had to be powerful in order to avoid another TBC Destro Lock and just feel like a decent upgrade overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    And I have put it into words. In the example you gave, Imp. Frostbolt would allow said Mage to get off a Frostbolt at 2.5 seconds vs. 3 seconds. It may not seem like a lot of time, but that 0.5 seconds can be huge in a combat situation. Can you not seriously see how that might give said Mage a slight advantage over another Mage who didn't take that talent?
    In a game as slowpaced as Vanilla, yeah.

    As said, if you care about the slow, it's actually 1.5 vs 1.0 sec, as you're then using the Rank 1 Version.
    And even then, Cone of Cold exists, which is instant.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Once you're really deep into Fire? Probably not. But if you went half into Fire and half into Arcane? You could figure that out based on how you customized your character. But you should still have the option.
    The irony about Vanilla arcane is that there was not a single talent in there that improved the damage of your Arcane Missiles.

    In other words, Arcane was generally regarded as tree to dump points into after you're done with Frost / Fire.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-28 at 04:41 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It absolutely was, they just slapped a malus on it because it was too OP.

    It was one of those "choices" where you just gimped your character in every single situation by not taking it.
    It was better in terms of DPS, yes, it wasn't the only viable option though. You've changed the standard several times now between optimization and viability. Anytime I've pointed to something viable but not optimal you've just said it's not optimal. I don't care what the most optimal build is, reality is that there is ever only one optimal build per fight for every class. You do nothing for your argument when you swap between standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    They only had a choice during Cata, during Wotlk Titan's Grip was flat out better.
    And it solely worked because those talents were based on their weapon type, as the choice was defined by your weapons.

    Taking both talents did not yield a gain in anything but flexibility and less respec costs.
    Again, it was better but it wasn't the only choice, SMF was introduced as a buff to wielding 1-h weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The same idea doesn't work for a regular spell, if i put Icefury into a talent tree, how do i leave people the option to not pick without extremely hampering their performance?
    I would have to create an alternative talent that is somehow exclusive with Icefury, which sounds a lot like the current talent system.
    Or you put point into your other trees instead of trying to create another talent. That's the whole point, you don't have to create another talent, your players then have an additional amount of points to put into another tree to either buff their current play-style or change it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Same as Divine Storm for Ret (Or literally any other core ability within a talent tree), there just was no alternative option, if you didn't take, you just made your character worse.
    You're missing how the system worked, sure you didn't have Divine Storm but you instead picked up another talent(s) in another tree that, once again, enhanced your character in another way. That was the whole point of the system. You could opt out of those features and instead pick up a few points in something else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    And even DH's have alternate playstyles, don't they? With some being more or less complex.
    Right... just like all the classes through all the history of the game in both systems. Keep in mind, complexity isn't always a good thing, just like simplicity isn't a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Again, please highlight to me all those alternate playstyles (actual playstyles, not just random buff passive included) in particular those Hybrid dps.
    Or Healing specs outside of Priest, but like as actual healers, not people that buff others.
    You've been given multiple examples by multiple people and just said "no" or argued about whether they're the most optimal build. Why would I continue to supply examples only to be dragged down into more arguments with fluctuating standards?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Considering they sticked with the system and doubled down in by even introducing spec specific talents (after all, in MoP all specs had one shared talent tree) i would say yes.
    Blizzard hasn't dug their heels in before? Even when they've been wrong? Really?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If it was simpler / better for them, i think they would have went back by now, the MoP Talentsystem now lasted (at least in terms of expansion count) longer than the Pre Cata Talent system.
    Especially for a team that has made quite a few decisions based on the longterm sustain of the game (which ironically caused a shit ton of BfA's issues) rather than short term entertainment, in particular regarding class design.
    I don't think so at all. Look at the whole Classic debacle. Its a small investment that is likely going to produce large sums of money. Yet for years they fought with the community on it. Blizzard has been known for being prideful before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Why not? Saying that your team cannot do it is usually a big concession for a company, they generally avoid saying that, rather raise "other concerns" why they're not doing it.
    Because it's a shtick, an old one. Someone comes along and says some things that aren't perfect and nice and they're viewed as being "just one of us," it's a fantastic way to be seen. Politicians have used it forever now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I take it that GC was honest by saying that, because he straight up raised development issues, rather than just leaving conveniently leaving it out by saying "you think you do, but you don't".
    Even if he was... he then jumped ship and didn't see the system through and couldn't tell you about how it's been going since.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Take the counter example, classic servers, before the announcement in 2017, how many times has Blizzard said: "It's not financially sustainable for us".
    I don't remember them saying that, ever.
    Rather stuff like "You think you do but you don't" or
    There have been reasons to be worried about a Classic server launch. That said, we have no idea what the reasons at Blizz might have been.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    "We don't want to split the community".
    Well, to be fair... they have been right about the split.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The truth came out shortly after they announced it: they found a way to get classic running on their current WoW server infrastructure, meaning in other words, if they hadn't found a solution to this technical problem, Classic would have most likely never happened as the thing would not be profitable for the company as they would have to run two MMO's simultaneously.
    Doesn't this investment of time and money of finding a way to make it work show it was something they've wanted to do for a while? Even if they didn't give the best reasons?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Blizzard was kinda misleading the community by raising strictly philosphical issues when in reality, a technical problem was the deciding factor.
    Yeah, they were very cooperate about it. They've kinda shaken the "champion of gamers" image and replaced it with a big tech look.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    You do nothing for your argument when you swap between standards.
    I didn't swap, at best i pointed out that thinking that just because talent variation exists, doesn't mean it's customization, let alone good one.

    And if you consider Titans Grip "customization" then literally anything is customization, which i heavily disagree with because it's extremely misleading.
    Costumization within a gaming setting should apply some sort of viability.

    Not taking Titans Grip just gimped your character in every way possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Or you put point into your other trees instead of trying to create another talent. That's the whole point, you don't have to create another talent, your players then have an additional amount of points to put into another tree to either buff their current play-style or change it.
    And that just never existed.

    To stick with the Icefury example:

    First off, Icefury needs to be buried deep down in Elemental, if it's in like Tier 3-5, it's unavoidable for obvious reasons.

    Second, you then need another set of talentS to put my talentpoints into that give me some sort of reasonable compensation for not taking Icefury.
    If my other two specs are a Melee and a Resto Tree, those options are not going to exist, because those talents are obviously tailored towards a Melee / Healer role.

    They may have like some useful talents, but that's it.

    It also can barely work due how the talent system operated, one point into a core ability held way more value than into some reduced mana cost talent, therefore, unless my tree was filled with barely useful talents, i'm not just skipping over a single talent that holds (by comparison to other talents) massive value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    You're missing how the system worked, sure you didn't have Divine Storm but you instead picked up another talent(s) in another tree that, once again, enhanced your character in another way. That was the whole point of the system. You could opt out of those features and instead pick up a few points in something else.
    And was this talent even compareable with Divine storm? It wasn't.
    Really, if you so deepset onto this "I can do things differently for the sake of doing it", then i'm quite frankly at a loss as.

    At a certain point, one needs to draw line where accomodating a certain people holds the game back.
    If someone seriously considers playing Ret paladin but enjoys the freedom of not taking Crusader strike / Divine storm, you have to ask yourself whether that's good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Keep in mind, complexity isn't always a good thing, just like simplicity isn't a bad thing.
    I fully agree, that's why it is good to have a talent system that accommodates this.

    Do you like Talent X? No, then don't take, take an alternative and you'll still be doing reasonably well.
    Do you want a bit more complex stuff? Take Talent Y.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    You've been given multiple examples by multiple people and just said "no" or argued about whether they're the most optimal build.
    I think you've noticed the lengths of these posts by now, sorry that i cannot discuss literally every single example in great detail, especially if its essentially always the same thing except for a different class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Blizzard hasn't dug their heels in before? Even when they've been wrong? Really?
    Which is by no means a slippery slope, right?
    Because they may be wrong on X, doesn't mean it also applies to Y.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    I don't think so at all. Look at the whole Classic debacle. Its a small investment that is likely going to produce large sums of money. Yet for years they fought with the community on it. Blizzard has been known for being prideful before.
    I can only speak for myself, but for me, beyond the leveling phase, the talent trees are not a thing that i liked about classic.

    Each to their own, but making broad statement why people will people classic (or not) is an extremely speculative discussion, especially where "It's just something different" is also an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Politicians have used it forever now.
    I doubt GC's salary was ever dependant on how the community views him.
    You may accuse the devs using political speech, which is a legit criticism, but the massive difference between politicians and game developers is the fact that the devs do not have to win an election where the playerbase can vote.

    This is a fundamental error of your analogy, the people that give GC a job are not the benefactors of this statement.

    Fact is, i doubt the higher ups at game companies even care whether developers interact with the playerbase, outside of (pre) scheduled PR stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Doesn't this investment of time and money of finding a way to make it work show it was something they've wanted to do for a while?
    They started to look at the issue again in 2016 (A.k.a. Nostalrius drama) and had a single dev, Omar Gonzalez, working on it, who basically developed a Proof of concept within a few weeks, that it is in fact doable to run some alternate version of the 1.12 data on the 7.0 WoW version.

    To put simply, it was one guy who enabled Vanilla from a technical side, at least that's what i've got out of interviews, with Omar also hosting the Classic Panel, that is most likely not too far from the truth.

  18. #138
    Meanwhile.


  19. #139
    Problem is, their explanation doesn't hold weight. In practice, every single person ran a cookie cutter build and if you didn't have it, you were bad. Didn't have blessing of sanctuary as a prot paladin? Bad. Didn't have the defense mitigation as a tank? Bad.

    I think the entire thing is, people wanted to be able to build how they wanted to and still be good. It just wasn't doable for them to make an actual hybrid build. You would spec a few points into a tree for 1 specific talent. The rest would go into your primary tree for its core talents. Some of these were moves. Others, required stats like +crit for a fire mage. There was rarely any actual choice in the matter because how your class played dictated which talents you took.

    They just got lazy. That is all. We have the Same issue now as we did back then. Cookie cutter builds that if you don't have the best talent, you have the worst and are bad.
    Last edited by Zantos; 2019-05-28 at 05:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  20. #140
    Wait, we have a choice for talents now? Actually those who use a meta still do. The choice is an illusion, but a more accurate word is chore.

    Anyway, this doesn't really matter. The problem with WoW is class design(gameplay) and reward structure. If they want to see an example of good gameplay/reward structure, they need look no further than Legion.

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