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  1. #1

    A Fun Look to the Past - Old Blue Posts about Talent Tree Evolution

    This topic has been beaten to death but i think it could be funny for some of you to see actual blue posts about the talent tree evolution.

    I dont know what to say here on the OP...let me start with my opinion.
    IMO
    The current talent system was the "ultimate surrender" by Blizzard in admitiing Raiding and Arena 3x3 as the ultimate form...No...the ONE true form of WoW's content.
    Everything must be balanced around this 2 things...therefore there is zero tolerance for "player created fun" in all other kinds of content.

    Because yes, we all know the "cookie cutter" argument is true...for raiding and 3x3...AoE or Single Target.
    (plz do refrain from using the cookie cutter argument in this thread, we all know its true: for raiding and 3x3...AoE or Single Target)

    My argument is that there is value is preserving "player created fun" in both PvP (world pvp) and PvE World Content.

    I will just end my thoughts with an idea for the future of talent systems:
    -Create a completely different talent tree that only works in the world (much like the PvP talents) but DOESNT work in competitive instances
    (ex: doesnt work in Raids, Mythic+, Arena, Rated BG's)

    Maybe this way we can stop this mentality that Raiding and 3x3 arena are the ultimate form of content and therefore the entire talent system must be...what we have today.

    _________THE END___________

    Here are some funny quotes from the devs at the time:


    First in Cataclysm
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Some players miss true hybrid builds. (Hybrid in this context means spending near evenly in two trees -- I’m not talking about the more common use of “hybrid” as a tank or healing class.) To be fair, these builds were either not very competitive or were just cherry picking a few powerful talents in order to create something that was likely overpowered, especially in PvP. In other words, the reality of the hybrid build never lived up to the myth. But it’s fair to say that it’s impossible now to have a hybrid build, and we understand some players want them back.

    Then the ultimate "surrender" in MOP
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Look, we tried the talent tree model for seven years. We think it’s fundamentally flawed and unfixable. We know some of you have faith in us that someday we’ll eventually replace all of the boring +5% crit talents with interesting talents and give you 80 talent points that you can spend wherever, and that the game will still remain relatively balanced and fun. We greatly appreciate your faith, but we fear it is misplaced. It’s not a matter of coming up with enough fun mechanics, which is challenging but ultimately doable. The problem is the extreme number of combinations. When you have such a gigantic matrix, the chances of having unbeatable synergies, or combinations of talents that just don’t work together is really high. That’s not lazy design. That is recognizing how math works.

    So given that we don’t think it’s humanly possible to have 40-50 fun, interesting and balanced talents in a tree, the alternative is to continue on with bloated trees that have a ton of inconsequential talents that you have to slog through to get to the fun stuff. A lot of you guys have stuck with us for years, continue to play regularly, and still love World of Warcraft. You are the reason we’re still making this game. We think you deserve better, and we think we can do better.
    Have fun reading the entire thing Here:

    CATACLYSM
    https://pt.wowhead.com/news=190220.2...ee-post-mortem
    and
    MOP
    https://pt.wowhead.com/news=198422/d...e-talent-trees
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2019-05-26 at 12:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    This topic has been beaten to death
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    I dont know what to say here on the OP
    'Kay.

    /10char
    "Auto-correct is my worst enema."

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Anastacy View Post
    'Kay.

    /10char
    If i see 1 more page of people saying the word "cookie cutter" im going to lose my mind.
    Therefore my first sentence.

    But for someone who didnt know what to say...i sure typed a lot

  4. #4
    I agree with these blue posts. Your ideas are bad and stupid. Old talents sucked. You are not getting them back on retail ever.

    You want to play outdate game with outdated mechanics, classic will be soon there for you. Could you refrain from posting your horrible threads about "old good wow" and just piss off to classic forums? Thanks

  5. #5
    I like the idea.

    Or how about this, something similar to dual talent trees, where with the click of a button you can switch to "classic mode talents"

    The classic mode talents could come at a disadvantage, say 10% less total dps/healing against the BFA/retail spec.

  6. #6
    Dreadlord Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    I agree with these blue posts. Your ideas are bad and stupid. Old talents sucked. You are not getting them back on retail ever.

    You want to play outdate game with outdated mechanics, classic will be soon there for you. Could you refrain from posting your horrible threads about "old good wow" and just piss off to classic forums? Thanks
    lol wow someone has had a mister grumpy pants day today huh? What sever are you playing Classic on btw?

  7. #7
    See, I never minded the "boring" +Dmg or +Crit talents because they were simply fillers as we leveled before unlocking the "interesting" talents... usually abilities. I really dislike the current talent setup as it's taken away from class design and made them into talents, having to decide between being single talent, aoe or cleave talents every single encounter is incredibly frustrating (IMHO).

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    I will just end my thoughts with an idea for the future of talent systems:
    -Create a completely different talent tree that only works in the world (much like the PvP talents) but DOESNT work in competitive instances
    (ex: doesnt work in Raids, Mythic+, Arena, Rated BG's)

    I want to play my class.
    I want one set of talents, that work in everything.
    I do not want crap that only works in PVE.
    I do not want crap that only works in PVP.

    My class, I want to play it, whatever the tools, I want them to work all the time, not some of the time.

    This crap in breaking talents into pve/pvp only drives me crazy.

  9. #9
    Mechagnome Kemsa's Avatar
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    To be honest, they re-introduced the old talent tree in the form of TADA "legion artifacts traits" now it worked? yes, it mixed with the talent tree? yes.
    Now they tried with Azerite Armor, it worked? no? why? because of the lack of "traits" or "game changer traits" apart from "the grind wall" and "hard to obtain" that it was resolve on 8.1. SO they know what to "Not do and what to do now", they just need to "execute it properly"

    So the old talent tree can work? yes, what it needs to NOT BE ON IT, talents that only gave damage %, crit %, generally Stats, second stats.
    What SHOULD BE ON IT, talents that gave something and remove something, new skills, actives and pasives that change your gameplay or the pasing of you style of gameplay.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    To be honest, they re-introduced the old talent tree in the form of TADA "legion artifacts traits" now it worked? yes, it mixed with the talent tree? yes.
    Now they tried with Azerite Armor, it worked? no? why? because of the lack of "traits" or "game changer traits" apart from "the grind wall" and "hard to obtain" that it was resolve on 8.1. SO they know what to "Not do and what to do now", they just need to "execute it properly"
    Oh wow, you couldn't be more wrong...

    Long story short to cut the crap:

    1. Legion artifact traits were linear, there was no choice, only priority.
    2. No it did not work at all since there was no choice, might as well put that in class passives.
    3. Actually with azerite armor it did work because the choice is there. Tho there are still some bis lists, there is a choice. In mostly going PvP, PvE, heavy AOE, heavy ST, Mixed.
    4. There is A LOT of game changer traits in azerite gear. Legion artifacts just had 1 active ability. Other things were plain old damage buffs. Or RNG damage buffs.

    Been working on rotations since WoD, azerite gear is the only thing that I actually have to take it into consideration (There were some tier sets that did change gameplay but NOWHERE near as much as azerite does).

  11. #11
    There was nothing wrong with 'boring +5% crit' talents.

    There is something massively wrong with the idea of being only a 'Fire Mage' or a 'Frost Mage' instead of a Mage.

    Cataclysm, the height of developer failure and misconceptions, may you rot in hell.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2019-05-26 at 05:41 AM.

  12. #12
    Oh the old tree discussion is back. I still remember back in tbc in my very first hc dungeon, i did awful dmg and had a pretty awful spec, i still remember my groupmates making fun of it until they kicked me. Oh wow it was so much fun.

    Then i googled and specced to some guide did 3 times as much dmg and never went for anything else again.

    Nowadays i just play whatever talent i enjoy. It's so good.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    To be honest, they re-introduced the old talent tree in the form of TADA "legion artifacts traits" now it worked? yes, it mixed with the talent tree? yes.
    Now they tried with Azerite Armor, it worked? no? why? because of the lack of "traits" or "game changer traits" apart from "the grind wall" and "hard to obtain" that it was resolve on 8.1. SO they know what to "Not do and what to do now", they just need to "execute it properly"

    So the old talent tree can work? yes, what it needs to NOT BE ON IT, talents that only gave damage %, crit %, generally Stats, second stats.
    What SHOULD BE ON IT, talents that gave something and remove something, new skills, actives and pasives that change your gameplay or the pasing of you style of gameplay.
    Not really. There was only one tree if you will, you got every talent on it. It really didn't change your play style, and you all bitched about it when Artifact weapon talents were debuted at Blizzcon.

  14. #14
    Yet they somehow manage to fuck up 21 talents for most classes where only one per row is viable for anything.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kemsa View Post
    To be honest, they re-introduced the old talent tree in the form of TADA "legion artifacts traits" now it worked? yes, it mixed with the talent tree? yes.
    No it did not work because you got all teh traits regardless as you filled them all. There was absolutely no choice involved.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by siren View Post
    I want to play my class.
    I want one set of talents, that work in everything.
    I do not want crap that only works in PVE.
    I do not want crap that only works in PVP.

    My class, I want to play it, whatever the tools, I want them to work all the time, not some of the time.

    This crap in breaking talents into pve/pvp only drives me crazy.
    But what pains me is that the "cookie cutter" argument is true...for Raids and 3x3 PvP.
    How would you "counter argument" this?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by siren View Post
    I want to play my class.
    I want one set of talents, that work in everything.
    I do not want crap that only works in PVE.
    I do not want crap that only works in PVP.

    My class, I want to play it, whatever the tools, I want them to work all the time, not some of the time.

    This crap in breaking talents into pve/pvp only drives me crazy.
    Completely agree.

    Best solution is to incorporate most of the pvp talents into the main talent tree. Remove the entire pvp talent system. This will make it so that we a lot more talent tiers to go through as we level and finally fill those stupid holes that the pruning has lead to. Outlier talents can be left out completely or incorporated into a tier with other OP talents so you have to make a choice. It increases player agency and makes leveling more satisfying than getting a talent point every 15 levels if you're getting them every 10 levels instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-6700 @2.8GHz | Nvidia GTX 960M | 16GB DDR4-2400MHz | 1 TB Toshiba SSD| Dell XPS 15

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    But what pains me is that the "cookie cutter" argument is true...for Raids and 3x3 PvP.
    How would you "counter argument" this?
    Why you need counter that honestly? High End raiding and especially 3v3 PvP is competitive part of the game, cookie cutter builds existed before as they exists now. Let have these builds.

    But one of these system is removing these "gimmick" builds, "fun builds" or "completely unusable in most cases but still..play what you want" builds. Why? Why it needs to be this way?
    Last edited by ManiaCCC; 2019-05-26 at 12:50 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    But what pains me is that the "cookie cutter" argument is true...for Raids and 3x3 PvP.
    How would you "counter argument" this?
    You don't need to. That is irrelevant to the vast VAST majority of players and for those it is, if all of you talents are incorporated into the current talent system we have, they can be made into choices so that it still remains well balanced.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-6700 @2.8GHz | Nvidia GTX 960M | 16GB DDR4-2400MHz | 1 TB Toshiba SSD| Dell XPS 15

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    No it did not work because you got all teh traits regardless as you filled them all. There was absolutely no choice involved.
    It worked for a few weeks and maybe months, and honestly, it was the most fun I had with my character since they removed old talent trees.

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