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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    I'm sure there is and I do think that the current talent trees are fun enough. The old system added nothing of value for me but it did add quite a bit of annoyance. Not only was it clunky to work with but it was also built to pretty much confuse anyone that did not use external sources in order to know what builds where good. The extra + damage talents were just there for show I guess as you always picked them and so on.

    It was a bad system, simple as that. The mandatory talents were made part of each class and the important ones are the ones we have today. Your "fun" was not removed in any way.
    I played several years with one system and several years with other system and for me personally, the first system, while it was flawed, it was actually much more fun for me.

    Current system is still flawed and removed options from me..basically made whole system just boring. Don't try to argue fun part, because that's subjective. You can tell that you prefer current system, but you can't argue that current system is still same fun for me as the previous one.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeic View Post
    Talent trees as designed for Vanilla and tbc don’t work when you design each spec as a class, which is the direction WoW moved through its history. Furthermore, the game moved from providing a challenge to overcome to providing multiple difficulties that invalidate each other which creates an environment that exasperates min/maxing, driving away any sort of choice the player can make.
    True, the "cookie cutter" argument is completely true...but ONLY for the raiding scene! 3x3! Single Target or AoE!

    The cookie cutter argument is not true for all other kinds of PvP and world content PvE.
    At one point in time there were tank warlocks for petes sake.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Every single successfully made hybrid talents did change your playstyle considerably.
    In the majority of cases, no not really.
    Unless you see something as the TBC Destro lock as a successful hybrid build, but i doubt shadowbolt spam is what you have in mind.

    Even your lovechild called DK's had barely any changes, because as said earlier, the rotation betwen each spec was rather similiar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    But games like oldschool Rift were able to.
    I doubt Rift is a good example when looking at its overall state.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    In the majority of cases, no not really.
    Unless you see something as the TBC Destro lock as a successful hybrid build, but i doubt shadowbolt spam is what you have in mind.

    Even your lovechild called DK's had barely any changes, because as said earlier, the rotation betwen each spec was rather similiar.



    I doubt Rift is a good example when looking at its overall state.
    You simply dont understand us "snowflake customizers".
    We are homeless because there isnt any game on the market right now like WotlK kinds of customization...or old Rifts customization.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    In the majority of cases, no not really.
    Unless you see something as the TBC Destro lock as a successful hybrid build, but i doubt shadowbolt spam is what you have in mind.

    Even your lovechild called DK's had barely any changes, because as said earlier, the rotation betwen each spec was rather similiar.



    I doubt Rift is a good example when looking at its overall state.
    I am talking mostly from PvP perspective, but changing just few talents here and there changed basically whole gameplay plan for me. One most notable difference was my weird take on Warlock.. My Destro build gave up Conflagrate for Curse of Exhaustion. Just changing 5 talents I went from this burst based caster to more control oriented caster. It was like day and night in PvP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    HOLY shit the talent trees were bigger than i remembered ahah

    I loved your post Lythelia, thank you so much for posting, i just didnt know what to say as a reply.
    When i saw Rifts talent trees i had a boner, but decided to never play the game
    Problem with WotLK trees is, that hybridization is actually quite limited. IMO, TBC had the best tree. There was enough options but also you were able to hybridization your build. You really can't do that in WotLK in some meaningful way.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    I am talking mostly from PvP perspective, but changing just few talents here and there changed basically whole gameplay plan for me. One most notable difference was my weird take on Warlock.. My Destro build gave up Conflagrate for Curse of Exhaustion. Just changing 5 talents I went from this burst based caster to more control oriented caster. It was like day and night in PvP.
    To quote myself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    This is why most people that want the talent system back come from the following classes:
    Rogue
    Warlock
    Death Knight
    Mage

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    To quote myself:
    Add Warrior. I had a lot of fun with my funky builds with warrior in PvP

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    To quote myself:
    Don't forget Shaman, had some fun builds there. I forgot when the Shadow/Disc priest build was... TBC?

    That said though, this isn't much of an argument because we just don't have the stats to support this. I don't doubt that the DPS classes or specs with two DPS trees looked back on them more fondly than others. Lets say that's the case though and that is the majority of people enjoying it, wouldn't it make more sense to have the trees of the other classes worked on instead of pushing us all into such rigid classes?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Don't forget Shaman, had some fun builds there.
    Nope, they didn't, speaking from experience here.

    For Elemental, there were no really decent talents buried within Resto / Enhance, same story for Resto, Elemental had decent talents for Enhance, but those deep in Enhancement were just flat better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    I forgot when the Shadow/Disc priest build was... TBC?
    Vanilla, died because:
    1.SP became viable
    2.Both Disc and Holy got more output talents

    One of the many things people overlook in this discussion, in Vanilla, talents were way less impactful than they were in TBC / Wotlk, meaning you could still do respectable output just being wearing the correct gear for a given role.

    With each tree however getting more and more powerful talents, your "baseline" ability to perform a given role (such as healing) became way worse than in Vanilla, because the game was designed around having all the powerful talents from the healing tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    That said though, this isn't much of an argument because we just don't have the stats to support this.
    That argument kinda goes both ways.
    At the end of the day, you have to draw the line somewhere, unless you want to seriously argue over something like a 20/20/21 build on any given class.
    Simply because it was possible, doesn't mean it was good, not even close.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Add Warrior. I had a lot of fun with my funky builds with warrior in PvP
    Nope.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-26 at 08:52 PM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Nope.
    Than I believe you don't understand why people are asking for old talent system as much as you think

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    I played several years with one system and several years with other system and for me personally, the first system, while it was flawed, it was actually much more fun for me.

    Current system is still flawed and removed options from me..basically made whole system just boring. Don't try to argue fun part, because that's subjective. You can tell that you prefer current system, but you can't argue that current system is still same fun for me as the previous one.
    ์It removed the talets you had to pick in order to not suck. Nothing changed unless you actually sucked at the game. Well, you got more actual options now, that did change I guess.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    ์It removed the talets you had to pick in order to not suck. Nothing changed unless you actually sucked at the game. Well, you got more actual options now, that did change I guess.
    That's BS but whatever floats your boat.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    That's BS but whatever floats your boat.
    No, the passive ones that gave you extra damage were baked into the classes themselves. No "BS" there at all.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    No, the passive ones that gave you extra damage were baked into the classes themselves. No "BS" there at all.
    Maybe you would have a point, if they would not gut classes of their core skills. You have Shamans without totems, Hunters without traps and melee skills, Mages without frost spells, warlocks without curses.. but hey, you can choose between 3 different AoE skills..bravo..also, you can change them on the fly - such customization, much wow.

    No seriously, new system doesn't provide what the old one. They even said that in their post "Old system is too complex, we can hardly handle that". If you enjoy current system, more power to you, but it's not even close to old system.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Nope, they didn't, speaking from experience here.
    As am I, a few builds there. You didn't always take them to whatever content you were doing that day but that was the case for every single class and build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    For Elemental, there were no really decent talents buried within Resto / Enhance, same story for Resto, Elemental had decent talents for Enhance, but those deep in Enhancement were just flat better.
    Enhancement had better talents, yes. Doesn't mean it was the only tree you invested in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Vanilla, died because:
    1.SP became viable
    2.Both Disc and Holy got more output talents
    Just like every class to today. Builds come and go, the meta for each classes changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    One of the many things people overlook in this discussion, in Vanilla, talents were way less impactful than they were in TBC / Wotlk, meaning you could still do respectable output just being wearing the correct gear for a given role.
    That's a half accurate statement. Some of the specs just outright wouldn't function (not that they were super functioning to start) if you didn't invest a certain amount of points into them and picked up specific talents. Druids and Paladins were great examples of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    With each tree however getting more and more powerful talents, your "baseline" ability to perform a given role (such as healing) became way worse than in Vanilla, because the game was designed around having all the powerful talents from the healing tree.
    That's true, the game began to be built around players investing more points into an individual tree. That was an intentional change though and doesn't speak to what the game would've behaved like if they had built it intentionally another way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That argument kinda goes both ways.
    At the end of the day, you have to draw the line somewhere, unless you want to seriously argue over something like a 20/20/21 build on any given class.
    A hybrid doesn't have to be a set amount of allocated points into trees. It doesn't have to be a fundamental change to rotation, that's far too restrictive. It can do those things, or maybe it allows you to tank dual-wielding instead of sword and shield. My standard for this has been a noticeable deviance from the intended play style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Simply because it was possible, doesn't mean it was good, not even close.
    This argument doesn't hold water, I'm sorry. This statement is true of every iteration of every class, spec, talent, glyph, and any way the players interact with their classes and has been true from the start of the game and it will be true until the end of the game. Something not being "good" (in whichever way you're defining it) doesn't mean it's "bad" to let the players have access to or support.

    Right now, which classes are good for CoS? What about 3s? What if you're a BM Hunter?

    What if your class is behind on DPS on every way we can measure it on live? Should we just cut the class from the game?

    Again, as I've said before. Things are exactly the same now as they have been since the beginning. There's a meta, some classes are better than others. Some talents are better than others.

    That said, the Wrath trees were large and clunky and unnecessary. If your trees are that large, something is wrong. Could you imagine what they'd look like today? I mean, we're talking 5 MORE ROWS PER SPEC of abilities.

    As I suggested before though, I think there is a nice middle-ground that works.
    Last edited by Selah; 2019-05-26 at 09:37 PM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Enhancement had better talents, yes. Doesn't mean it was the only tree you invested in.
    The point is that "variation" or "costumization", let alone impactful one, wasn't a really thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Just like every class to today. Builds come and go, the meta for each classes changes.
    ...yes?
    I don't get what you're trying to say as far as my original post is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    That's a half accurate statement.
    It isn't.
    The discrepancy between a not specialized healer and a specialized healer grew with each expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    That's true, the game began to be built around players investing more points into an individual tree. That was an intentional change though and doesn't speak to what the game would've behaved like if they had built it intentionally another way.
    The is problem again that you cannot design every tree with another one in mind, it doesn't work if those trees do not have a common ground as far as playstyle is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    This argument doesn't hold water, I'm sorry.
    It does, you have to draw a line between viable and nonviable somewhere.

    This common ground is at least that every spec is viable within their certain role, perhaps not up to the highest difficulty, but you can play any spec up until Jaina Mythic without lagging extremely behind in terms of performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    That said, the Wrath trees were large and clunky and unnecessary. If your trees are that large, something is wrong. Could you imagine what they'd look like today? I mean, we're talking 5 MORE ROWS PER SPEC of abilities.
    Because Wotlk talent trees did essentially two things:
    -They needed the talents in order to develop something resembling a unique rotation towards a spec. (Taste for Blood, Hotstreak, Brain freeze, etc.)
    -Dumped basically random beneficial talents deep into the tree in order to combat hybrid specs.

    In a way, Wotlk talent trees did what Blizzard has done in Cata but in a soft way, Hybrid specs were for the most part pretty dead because you gimped your character too damn hard by skipping over certain talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    No seriously, new system doesn't provide what the old one. They even said that in their post "Old system is too complex, we can hardly handle that". If you enjoy current system, more power to you, but it's not even close to old system.
    There is a world of difference between complexity for the developers or for the players.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    IMO
    The current talent system was the "ultimate surrender" by Blizzard in admitiing Raiding and Arena 3x3 as the ultimate form...No...the ONE true form of WoW's content.
    Everything must be balanced around this 2 things...therefore there is zero tolerance for "player created fun" in all other kinds of content.
    It isn't, at least, not like that. It's their acceptance of the fact that the system was fundamentally unworkable, regardless of what content it is applied to, and would necessarily consist mostly of filler.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post

    There is a world of difference between complexity for the developers or for the players.
    I am aware of that, but even they said, it's doable, but they just don't want to. So we just went from one extreme, complex customization (at least for developers), to other extreme, no customization at all (aside of pvp talents I guess)..

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It isn't, at least, not like that. It's their acceptance of the fact that the system was fundamentally unworkable, regardless of what content it is applied to, and would necessarily consist mostly of filler.
    It was workable for like 7 years. That wasn't problem at all. That system, while flawed, was still good. It's still used to these days in several other games

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by siren View Post
    I want to play my class.
    I want one set of talents, that work in everything.
    I do not want crap that only works in PVE.
    I do not want crap that only works in PVP.

    My class, I want to play it, whatever the tools, I want them to work all the time, not some of the time.

    This crap in breaking talents into pve/pvp only drives me crazy.
    This, I disagree with. I, personally, want choices. I want to make decisions.

    I feel like what you're describing is something you'd see in Guild Wars, since your kit is available most of the time to always switch.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Icechaosss View Post
    This, I disagree with. I, personally, want choices. I want to make decisions.

    I feel like what you're describing is something you'd see in Guild Wars, since your kit is available most of the time to always switch.
    How wanting both pve and pvp talents working all the time is removing the choice?

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