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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    The weapon could've worked better if there were, say, paths you had to choose to go down otherwise they'd be locked out to you, though you would be able to re-roll to get points back to try another path. Make it closer to how old talent trees worked, y'know? They could then boost certain traits you pick to be more potent and impactful. That said, I did like the overall "talent tree" design.
    I remember as clear as day, because i fought on forums for Blizzard to make legion artifacts like that...but i failed.

    Blizzard made a blue post saying they were unsure if legion artifacts:
    1) Would unlock all traits eventually
    2) Or not

    I fought to not unlock them all

    Blizzard went with unlocking them all

  2. #162
    Give me WC3:R, Blizz! The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    I remember as clear as day, because i fought on forums for Blizzard to make legion artifacts like that...but i failed.

    Blizzard made a blue post saying they were unsure if legion artifacts:
    1) Would unlock all traits eventually
    2) Or not

    I fought to not unlock them all

    Blizzard went with unlocking them all
    Yeah, as nice as it is to see everything filled up, there is a certain joy in taking the time to try different builds and find out what you like best. When they just saying, "Okay, have all of it" then that does kinda ruin it a bit. Especially since adding restrictions means you can make other aspects more powerful and game-changing.

  3. #163
    The Lightbringer Littleraven's Avatar
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    I still feel like there is a system that works somewhere in all the shit they have tried. They just need to find the "cocktail" that works together. I actually like the way the new talents work but even now they have gotten stale.

    A mix of the current system with the original trees could work but I don't know how they could balance it. Maybe take the original glyph system into account and have the abilities be basically the same but have different augments depending on the choice you make. The only issue with that is balancing the augments. I'm no game designer and I can't imaging trying ot deal with the essential butterfly effect of every change because even trying to think of issues with what I just said is giving me anxiety lol.

    And if Blizzard has shown us anything....it's that shit that sounds good on paper has massive potential to fail if not enough eyes get on it and actually see how it works long term.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Littleraven View Post
    I still feel like there is a system that works somewhere in all the shit they have tried. They just need to find the "cocktail" that works together. I actually like the way the new talents work but even now they have gotten stale.

    A mix of the current system with the original trees could work but I don't know how they could balance it. Maybe take the original glyph system into account and have the abilities be basically the same but have different augments depending on the choice you make. The only issue with that is balancing the augments. I'm no game designer and I can't imaging trying ot deal with the essential butterfly effect of every change because even trying to think of issues with what I just said is giving me anxiety lol.

    And if Blizzard has shown us anything....it's that shit that sounds good on paper has massive potential to fail if not enough eyes get on it and actually see how it works long term.
    There is absolutely zero customization today because:
    1) Accommodates bad players
    2) Blizz got lazy
    3) Easier to balance game

    imo

  5. #165
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    lol

    So, the Blizz PR response was reality?

    No, it was never reality. Reality is that Blizz wanted to reduce costs. Shredding the Talent tree was one of the methods they used to reduce those costs. Therefore, they needed to create an excuse.

    The excuse they created is that other builds didn't really exist, or just weren't effective, or (if they were somehow effective) only effective in one or two ways.

    In other words, Blizz denies the reality that myself and millions of others actually existed. We played the game, we enjoyed the game, and we succeeded just fine.

    I was never on a world-first or server-first raiding guild, but that was never my goal. I played many raids when they were live, and I had fun with my "clearly wrong" specs, and I succeeded just fine.

    Don't believe everything you read on the internet, and, even more so, don't believe everything you read from a corporate representative.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    But what pains me is that the "cookie cutter" argument is true...for Raids and 3x3 PvP.
    How would you "counter argument" this?
    It's literally a non-issue. I mean what's the difference between "cookie cutter" builds now and then? You'll always end up with best in slot talents for certain situations. Why don't we remove talents altogether then?
    To the average player this does not and should not matter. I mean, it's logical that there'll always be a "correct way" to play the game. I simply don't get how people think this is an argument for the removal of player choice. It's a game. Allow players to experiment and make mistakes.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    lol

    So, the Blizz PR response was reality?

    No, it was never reality. Reality is that Blizz wanted to reduce costs. Shredding the Talent tree was one of the methods they used to reduce those costs. Therefore, they needed to create an excuse.

    The excuse they created is that other builds didn't really exist, or just weren't effective, or (if they were somehow effective) only effective in one or two ways.

    In other words, Blizz denies the reality that myself and millions of others actually existed. We played the game, we enjoyed the game, and we succeeded just fine.

    I was never on a world-first or server-first raiding guild, but that was never my goal. I played many raids when they were live, and I had fun with my "clearly wrong" specs, and I succeeded just fine.

    Don't believe everything you read on the internet, and, even more so, don't believe everything you read from a corporate representative.
    I agree 100% with your post

    Saving money and time was obviously ONE of the reasons of Blizzard IMO
    But the biggest reason of all was "game balance" i think.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    I've mentioned at least twice now what I enjoy the builds and what I believe it brings to the game. You seem either unwilling to unable to process this bit of information.
    I've said it before, very often, those builds simply offered only marginal change, especially those buff totems examplie raised earlier just slightly improved a single number that doesn't even affect you or the playstyle of other people, it slightly changed some numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    This is all assuming there was no alternative to CS
    That's not an assumption, that's how it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Why do you care?
    If Blizzard implements the old talent system, that kinda affects me as well, now doesn't it?

    Like, if they want to bring it back for the leveling phase, sure, let them, but as far as endgame is concerned i will always take the new system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    You made the claim that hybrids only existed for X classes, every class at this point has come out of the woodwork and told you that wasn't true with the exception maybe being Paladin.
    Look, how many people have posted in this thread?
    Without even going through it all, if it the number goes way over ~15, i'd be surprised.

    Going simply by what a certain person says regarding a class on a forum (especially what is over a decade gone by now) doesn't automatically true.
    This is a serious error in logic; someone said something that aligns with my PoV =It must be true, this is called confirmation bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    people learn about their class and subsequently more about the game. Which is a net positive.
    I consider this as much of an positive experience as a person who plays a tank class, queueing LFD without Tank spec, selecting the tank role, then realizing you're kinda boned without tank spec.
    To make matters worse, four other people will now be quite mad at him as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Why even play SV then? Using your logic that you just applied above, we should just skip SV altogether and pick the most optimal class and spec. Unless... there is inherent value in class and game-play fantasies, like I've been saying for a while now.
    Because by that logic, even the current talentsystem is flawed because it doesn't automatically put people into the current FotM spec.

    I've said it earlier, a line needs to be drawn somewhere and those whacky builds you enjoy so much were simply a victim of Blizzard implementing a system that had many advantages over the old one.
    It's not like this was the primary goal of the talentsystem to "get rid" off those specs, they were simply lost due the system changing, they were a victim off its passing.

    I, unlike you, just don't miss them and see the benefits of the newer system.
    If you refuse to acknowledge them or pass them over as "not relevant to me", then that's your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    No, I'm not.
    You are, because clearly by the text below you just put things in there that i've never specified in this example.
    I said, leveling, but now you suddenly make this entire discussion about Rockbiter.
    I assumed the "replace it with Flametongue or Frostbrand" should have given you that hint, but it didn't, instead you just ramble on over possible applications of Rockbiter.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-30 at 05:36 PM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's literally a non-issue. I mean what's the difference between "cookie cutter" builds now and then? You'll always end up with best in slot talents for certain situations. Why don't we remove talents altogether then?
    To the average player this does not and should not matter. I mean, it's logical that there'll always be a "correct way" to play the game. I simply don't get how people think this is an argument for the removal of player choice. It's a game. Allow players to experiment and make mistakes.
    I dont know man...i dont know what to believe anymore.

    Is Blizzard just trying to save money and time and having perfect balance? Or are their arguments true?

    ...
    Last edited by Shadoowpunk; 2019-05-30 at 05:46 PM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I've said it before, very often, those builds simply offered only marginal change, especially those buff totems examplie raised earlier just slightly improved a single number that doesn't even affect you or the playstyle of other people, it slightly changed some numbers.
    Here we are again, we've had this multiple times now. I gave you the standard I am working with. You never took issue with the standard for days. I will even give a direct quote for you. "My standard for this has been a noticeable deviance from the intended play style. " Which by the way, is drawing a line like you've so sternly insisted I wasn't doing.

    Using your standard placed here, the momentum build for DHs doesn't meet what you've laid out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That's not an assumption, that's how it was.
    Do we have access to a proper and functioning Wrath server? No? Then it's an assumption, no matter how much you dislike it. I even gave you benefit of the doubt and structured my prior statement to work off the framework that there was no alternative. Again though, the larger point that you've ignored. Even if Jonny Awesome does this and skips CS, it doesn't do anything to you one way or another. You have no reason to care


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If Blizzard implements the old talent system, that kinda affects me as well, now doesn't it?
    No, it doesn't. You've made it very clear that the only thing you're concerned with is optimization. You will pick the most optimal build every time no matter the system being used. Nothing changes for you in either scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Like, if they want to bring it back for the leveling phase, sure, let them, but as far as endgame is concerned i will always take the new system.
    You like the simplistic and more straightforward system, then that's fine. That's your preference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Look, how many people have posted in this thread?
    Without even going through it all, if it the number goes way over ~15, i'd be surprised.
    I'm concerned you're not even reading what I'm writing just just skimming over what I've said. I said "every class at this point" not amount of people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Going simply by what a certain person says regarding a class on a forum (especially what is over a decade gone by now) doesn't automatically true.
    That's accurate, it doesn't render anything true. However, you're completely missing the fact that multiple people have come forward and outright contradicted you multiple times now. From where I'm standing, you've presented incredibly flimsy arguments that've easily deteriorated when put under slight pressure. Your only arguments against their claims are "no" and "that's how it was," and when contradicting statements you've made are pointed out you instead just blame me. I have no reason to believe your statements are remotely in touch with reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    This is a serious error in logic; someone said something that aligns with my PoV =It must be true, this is called confirmation bias.
    Speak of confirmation bias as much as you want. As you mentioned above, just because someone says it doesn't mean it's true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I consider this as much of an positive experience as a person who plays a tank class, queueing LFD without Tank spec, selecting the tank role, then realizing you're kinda boned without tank spec.
    To make matters worse, four other people will now be quite mad at him as well.
    Really? They didn't learn the value of what it means to be a tank? What it implies for their responsibilities in the group? There really wasn't anything to be gained?

    Though, in honesty this isn't a remotely reasonable comparison. Someone picking a weird talent only hurts them, not the group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Because by that logic, even the current talentsystem is flawed because it doesn't automatically put people into the current FotM spec.
    That's what I'm trying to tell you. With your reasoning provided, there is no reason to play anything that isn't FotM. You are perfectly demonstrating my points for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I've said it earlier, a line needs to be drawn somewhere and those whacky builds you enjoy so much were simply a victim of Blizzard implementing a system that had many advantages over the old one.
    I've drawn that line twice now for you. Once days ago in this conversation, and now in this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's not like this was the primary goal of the talentsystem to "get rid" off those specs, they were simply lost due the system changing, they were a victim off its passing.

    I, unlike you, just don't miss them and see the benefits of the newer system.
    If you refuse to acknowledge them or pass them over as "not relevant to me", then that's your problem.
    There are two very obvious benefits to the current system. Benefits I've acknowledged before. The first one being balance, that's why I've made the case a couple of times now about everything being centered around balance.

    The other benefit is, as mentioned above, it's a very straightforward and simplistic system. It's easier for people to dive into and less intimidating for newer players. To give an example, in Rift, one of the most effect tanks was a Void Knight spec. The talent tree is terrifying to look at, and because of that I never made an effort to learn it and instead played other specs. I mean, it's damn near four talents every row, for nine rows.

    That said, those benefits came at a cost as well when we changed system. The new system is obviously imperfect (just like everything humans touch) and I believe the costs came too steep.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You are, because clearly by the text below you just put things in there that i've never specified in this example.
    I said, leveling, but now you suddenly make this entire discussion about Rockbiter.
    I assumed the "replace it with Flametongue or Frostbrand" should have given you that hint, but it didn't, instead you just ramble on over possible applications of Rockbiter.
    Your argument to start was "Like, if you're leveling an Enhance Shaman, then you should stop using Rockbiter and start using Windfury once you hit 30" which is clearly a false statement. There are plenty of situations (as provided) where WF is not what you want to be using. I merely provided situations that contradicted your statement. Once again, you instead blame me because your statement was false.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Using your standard placed here, the momentum build for DHs doesn't meet what you've laid out.
    Can DH play Momemtum without being utterly terrible?
    Yeah, they can.

    Seems to meet my standards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Do we have access to a proper and functioning Wrath server? No?
    You need a Wotlk server to find whether there is suitable replacement as Ret for Crusader Strike in the Paladin talent tree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    No, it doesn't. You've made it very clear that the only thing you're concerned with is optimization. You will pick the most optimal build every time no matter the system being used. Nothing changes for you in either scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yeah, that's where you hit a fundamental issue of the old talent system.

    If you made Icefury a talent in the old talent system, everybody that played Elemental had to adapt to Icefury, what if some people however didn't like Icefury?
    That is a crucial flaw of the old system, Blizzard gave quite a lot of specs no alternative playstyles at all, it enforced a playstyle that you had abide to, deviation not possible.
    Remember that little argument?

    Of course, you now turn around and go"but they don't have to spec Icefury" - but no sane person would [if it were a talent in the old talent trees], as much as any sane person took Titans grip when they went Fury in Wotlk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    That's accurate, it doesn't render anything true. However, you're completely missing the fact that multiple people have come forward and outright contradicted you multiple times now
    You're just repeating yourself.
    How does a person saying make it true?

    You are using the posts of other people as direct evidence, that is the differenece.
    This is the textbook definition of Confirmation bias, you see something that fits your narrative, don't even check because you assume it as true.

    A handful of other people also pointed out issues with the old talent trees, who's right now? If your definition for credible source is "other people", that seems to meet that standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Really? They didn't learn the value of what it means to be a tank? What it implies for their responsibilities in the group? There really wasn't anything to be gained?
    Do i really have to drink bleach first in order to learn that this is not a bright idea?

    Like, what kind of fun does the rest of group have if the tank lacks both essential active and passive abilities to fulfill its role?
    Dps can't do shit because they draw aggro, healer has a hard time keeping the group, especially the tank, alive.

    This is one of those lessons that are just extremely unpleasement on every end possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Though, in honesty this isn't a remotely reasonable comparison. Someone picking a weird talent only hurts them, not the group.
    If you're in the same group it kinda does.

    Going by that, you're the kind of person that queues for random bg's as healer, then doesn't heal anyone and just does dps.
    Why? "Because i can, screw the rest, i want my fun, that's more important than anyone else's fun."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    That's what I'm trying to tell you. With your reasoning provided, there is no reason to play anything that isn't FotM. You are perfectly demonstrating my points for me.
    If you live in a black and white world, yes.
    I've said it countless times by now, a line needs to drawn somewhere, and i draw this where people have perfect access to superior abilities in their spellbook / talent tree and just choose not to use them for no objective reason.

    Beyond that, i don't care that much, if someone wants to play Fire, go and play Fire, but then choose talents that improve want you want to do, rather than creating a hodgepodge that attempts to both and doesn't do both things right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    I've drawn that line twice now for you. Once days ago in this conversation, and now in this post.
    And i continue to disagree with that line, i've stated where i draw the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    That said, those benefits came at a cost as well when we changed system. The new system is obviously imperfect (just like everything humans touch) and I believe the costs came too steep.
    And i think you glance over the most important aspect, i can choose actually other core abilities if i want to and still do reasonably well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Once again, you instead blame me because your statement was false.
    No, you just expand the argument to a point that was never implied.
    And you still miss the point that i made two posts ago, whether you're talking about Rockbiter, Frostbrand or Flametongue is irrelevant.
    Once you would actually not ignore this point, your entire rockbiter argument falls apart, because it is solely based on Rockbiter, not on error of the choice.

    Talking about the possible applications of Rockbiter misses the entire point of this example, this is now the third time i am pointing this out to you.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-30 at 07:44 PM.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Can DH play Momemtum without being utterly terrible?
    Yeah, they can.

    Seems to meet my standards.
    It's not the most optimal. Doesn't meet the standards you've put forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You need a Wotlk server to find whether there is suitable replacement as Ret for Crusader Strike in the Paladin talent tree?
    Doesn't change the fact it's assumption. It's quite strange you're still ignoring everything said prior twice now, especially considering I've now that I gave you benefit of the doubt.




    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Remember that little argument?

    Of course, you now turn around and go"but they don't have to spec Icefury" - but no sane person would, as much as any sane person took Titans grip when they went Fury in Wotlk.
    None of this changes the fact you personally will just take the most optimized build in either system. You asked if it would effect you, the answer is no.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You're just repeating yourself.
    How does a person saying make it true?
    I've put forth why I don't believe your statements. I don't know what more you want me to say. You have been contradicted many times and given terrible answers. That's why I don't believe you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You are using the posts of other people as direct evidence, that is the differenece.
    This is the textbook definition of Confirmation bias, you see something that fits your narrative, don't even check because you assume it as true.
    You think I'm not checking what I believe with what you're saying? Then what am I doing holding a conversation with you for days on end for? That reasoning is not rational.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Do i really have to drink bleach first in order to learn that this is not a bright idea?
    Again, another poor example. One being obviously dangerous to anyone born in the modern era and the nuances of a video game are not comparable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Like, what kind of fun does the rest of group have if the tank lacks both essential active and passive abilities to fulfill its role?
    Dps can't do shit because they draw aggro, healer has a hard time keeping the group, especially the tank, alive.
    Again, assuming it's not a bad actor, they learn very quickly the role of a tank. No one is born into knowing what a tank is, there's no guarantee the player has done the research you and I would.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    This is one of those lessons that are just extremely unpleasement on every end possible.



    If you're in the same group it kinda does.
    Players checked your talents all the time going into a dungeon. It wasn't unreasonable to expect to be thoroughly inspected as you worked your way into a dungeon, and more often than not people are also going to say if they've ever done the dungeon before. People also always asked too.

    Again, here we are with the hand-holding. You're expecting Blizzard to fill the role of the players. Let the players figure out if they want the tank or not. There is no talent system on earth that can compensate for someone not knowing how to tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Going by that, you're the kind of person that queues for random bg's as healer, then doesn't heal anyone and just does dps.
    Why? Because you can, screw the rest, i want my fun, that's more important than anyone else's fun.
    Again, players watch for that. You very quickly get called out and kicked from the group if you pull that behavior. I'd like to see you try to substantiate that claim with anything I've said though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If you living in a black and white world, yes.
    I've said it countless times by now, a line needs to drawn somewhere, and i draw this where people have perfect access to superior abilities in their spellbook / talent tree and just choose not to use them for no objective reason.
    So there is nuance... you just don't want enough nuance for anything that is beyond what you deal with? I've never made the claim that people just make arbitrary decisions because they want to, I've very explicitly drawn the comparison between their decisions in service to a game-play or class fantasy. There is an objective reason to want to do such things, whether or not you accept that is your decision.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    And i continue to disagree with that line, i've stated where i draw the line.
    That's fine, it just seems like a very dishonest claim when you let it go for so long.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    And i think glance over the most important aspect, i can choose actually other core abilities if i want to and still do reasonably well.
    Sometimes you can choose core abilities. Lets not pretend the current talent trees are filled to the brim with core abilities. Most of them are passive, CDs, utility, or a buff to your CDs.

    Unlike the previous system, you can't get into the core of the class and work with it, you can't touch the core of the class.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No, you just expand the argument to a point that was never implied.
    And you still miss the point that made two posts ago, whether you talking about Rockbiter, Frostbrand or Flametongue is irrelevant.
    Once you would actually not ignore this point, you entire rockbiter argument falls apart, because it is solely based on Rockbiter, not on error of the choice.

    Talking about the possible applications of Rockbiter misses the entire point of this example, this is now the third time i am pointing this out to you.
    You continue to point this out because you continue to fail to grasp what is being said. You tried to make a point and not only did it fall flat but I then subsequently pointed out to you that it was wrong.

    Your entire argument about RB was that it should be abandoned once you have WF. That's untrue. I can't do anything for you if you continue to willingly stick your fingers in your ears.

  13. #173
    This is my last reply, simply because this discussion had dragged on too long and clearly reaches no conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    It's not the most optimal. Doesn't meet the standards you've put forth.
    It does, i keep repeating myself that one doesn't have to play the most optimal build, but i draw a line where a talent choice is just plain worse in every way possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Doesn't change the fact it's assumption.
    That is such a weak argument, i might as well say that Feral was actually the best healing spec for Druid.
    You disagree? No access to a Vanilla server? Obviously just an assumption if you think that's false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    You think I'm not checking what I believe with what you're saying? Then what am I doing holding a conversation with you for days on end for? That reasoning is not rational.
    If you would actually use the same standard i've been using, you would come to the same conclusion.
    But you're using your "Not taking Crusader strike is customization" standard, then literally any statement regarding customization is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Again, another poor example. One being obviously dangerous to anyone born in the modern era and the nuances of a video game are not comparable.
    It's not, there is a limit where making an error is a helpful experience and where it leads to a bad experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Again, assuming it's not a bad actor, they learn very quickly the role of a tank.
    Or they just drop it and will never tank again, first impressions do matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Players checked your talents all the time going into a dungeon. It wasn't unreasonable to expect to be thoroughly inspected as you worked your way into a dungeon, and more often than not people are also going to say if they've ever done the dungeon before. People also always asked too.
    Kinda a contradiction, from what i'm understanding, you describe more of a Vanilla scenario, where the example provided as obviously LFD, meaning Wotlk and onwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    There is no talent system on earth that can compensate for someone not knowing how to tank.
    But there is way to stop people from making an obvious mistake.
    Which in my opinion should be used once other players get involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Again, players watch for that. You very quickly get called out and kicked from the group if you pull that behavior.
    Being kicked from a group - one of those "positive" experience, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Sometimes you can choose core abilities. Lets not pretend the current talent trees are filled to the brim with core abilities. Most of them are passive, CDs, utility, or a buff to your CDs.
    Of course, but that is a flaw of execution, not a flaw of the system.
    I never said the system was perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    You continue to point this out because you continue to fail to grasp what is being said.
    Says the person that still rambles on over the rockbiter example.
    I'm saying this for the last time - replace the word "rockbiter" with "Flametongue" or "Frostbrand", the point that i made there remains the same.
    This argument was not at any point whether there's still some niche scenario where Rockbiter could be used but about regular Shaman killing mobs out in the world using rockbiter over Windfury.
    I have pointed this out multiple times out to you by now, but you continue to flat out ignore this for some reason.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-05-30 at 08:16 PM.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    This is my last reply, simply because this discussion had dragged on too long and clearly reaches no conclusion.
    I understand, been a blast though! Thanks for playing along!


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It does, i keep repeating myself that one doesn't have to play the most optimal build, but i draw a line where a talent choice is just plain worse in every way possible.
    Right, so momentum is plain worse, it doesn't meet your criteria. Sorry, I'm not going to let you shift standards time and time again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That is such a weak argument, i might as well say that Feral was actually the best healing spec for Druid.
    You disagree? No access to a Vanilla server? Obviously just an assumption if you think that's false.
    I genuinely am lost why, even when I play along with your framework you put down, you feel the need to ignore most of what was said. You are just being dishonest by at this point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If you would actually use the same standard i've been using, you would come to the same conclusion.
    But you're using your "Not taking Crusader strike is customization" standard, then literally any statement regarding customization is true.
    You do realize that this argument is "because you don't think like me you don't reach the same conclusion" right? I mean... that's fairly obvious. The same is true in reverse. If you would use the same standard I use, you would reach the same conclusion. It's a non-argument.

    Never said anything about customization, you are the only one hung up on that.

    Beyond that though, if a Ret Pally found a way to make it work without CS, there's no way it wouldn't qualify as a build. If not, they'll abandon it as quickly as they put it together. There's nothing controversial about any of this. The only person getting upset about another abstract player doing something wrong is you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's not, there is a limit where making an error is a helpful experience and where it leads to a bad experience.
    One involves potential death, one involves learning through doing in a video game. Not comparable, not even remotely. Hyperbole does no favors for your argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Or they just drop it and will never tank again, first impressions do matter.
    That does happen, yes. So does a group getting frustrated with a tank going too slow and harassing them into being faster, they then stop tanking forever. There is reasonable expectations on both parties here, not just the tank. DPS and heals are expected to be decent people as well, though admittedly that is more rare than it should be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Kinda a contradiction, from what i'm understanding, you describe more of a Vanilla scenario, where the example provided as obviously LFD, meaning Wotlk and onwards.
    You don't think players aren't going to ask questions why the Prot tank has a 2-h? Or when the bear is a cat? It's the same concept, people are vetted by their groups all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    But there is way to stop people from making an obvious mistake.
    Which in my opinion should be used once other players get involved.
    The mistake you're describing only exists in the current system when paired with the LFD system. In "ye olde days" there wasn't an instance teleport that happened. People knew long before you ever made it to the instance if you were a tank or not. I do appreciate another talking point for talent trees though, thank you.

    Using your logic on the second line here... we should probably implement some kind of trial system that everyone has to pass before they can queue up for an instance right? We've definitely have not had that conversation with Blizzard before...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Being kicked from a group - one of those "positive" experience, right?
    If you deserved it... yes. Not everyone is as thin-skinned as you are, some are willing to realize when they were in the wrong.

    That said, it's not the most ideal. Hopefully people will give each other the benefit of the doubt and work with people in how to fill their roles or at least be patient while they learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Of course, but that is a flaw of execution, not a flaw of the system.
    I never said the system was perfect.
    Again, this is another blatantly incorrect statement. It is a flaw of the system, the system is flawed because choice exists. It's the same exact problem with the trees. In order for there to be a perfect system, everyone must play the exact same class and have no choice.

    I think this is a great point to highlight to really show a genuine lack of understanding of the talent system in either format. The talents exist to give us choice, because we have choice it is flawed regardless of either system. The question then becomes, how much choice and to what depth does it go?

    If we were to follow your reasoning to a bit further of an extreme, there should only be classes and specs. We should just do away with talents altogether and just let Blizzard pre-determine what our class is going to completely play like. It would save more time and money for Blizzard, it would be easier for players and the team, there is no potential for a "worse" play-style, you can't make "an obvious mistake," prevents negative experiences. Using your logic... we should just do away with the talent system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Says the person that still rambles on over the rockbiter example.
    I'm saying this for the last time - replace the word "rockbiter" with "Flametongue" or "Frostbrand", the point that i made there remains the same.
    This argument was not at any point whether there's still some niche scenario where Rockbiter could be used but about regular Shaman killing mobs out in the world using rockbiter over Windfury.
    I have pointed this out multiple times out to you by now, but you continue to flat out ignore this for some reason.
    If you failed to portray something correctly, that mistake is on your head, not mine. From what I can see, you used an example and it was proven unequivocally false and now you try to blame me for your inability to communicate well. Spin the narrative as you like, that doesn't make it true, just a fantasy.

    Well, it's been fun! I'm glad we had this conversation. It does a good job of highlighting how weak the arguments against the trees really are, and the more we've conversed about this the more I'm suspicious that Blizzard axed them to just save themselves more work.
    Last edited by Selah; 2019-05-31 at 01:27 AM.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Lythelia View Post
    Well, it's been fun! I'm glad we had this conversation. It does a good job of highlighting how weak the arguments against the trees really are, and the more we've conversed about this the more I'm suspicious that Blizzard axed them to just save themselves more work.
    I stopped responding to the other guy because he seems to be incapable of understanding that other people want the option to play differently than intended or the option to customize their characters the way they want to.

    But I agree 100% with you here - Blizzard only axed them because they're lazy and don't want to do the work of balancing them. Rift and Path of Exile have more complex trees and I love them a lot. I just wish the player base was there. That's one of the only things WoW has that keeps me coming back...though that is dwindling, too.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    I stopped responding to the other guy because he seems to be incapable of understanding that other people want the option to play differently than intended or the option to customize their characters the way they want to.
    I doubt it was he was incapable of understanding, more likely he just doesn't enjoy the talent trees and doesn't want to see them return. Which is fair, I'm never going to begrudge anyone for not enjoying something I do. However, if you're going to dispute my points it has to be done honestly and you can't just write off being contradicted with "no" and "that's not how it is" those aren't arguments that's just you objecting. What's interesting is that after doing a bit more digging I found there was a minimum of at least 1 hybrid per class in Vanilla. I haven't dug into BC and Wrath trees but I suspect there's plenty to be found there.
    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    But I agree 100% with you here - Blizzard only axed them because they're lazy and don't want to do the work of balancing them. Rift and Path of Exile have more complex trees and I love them a lot. I just wish the player base was there. That's one of the only things WoW has that keeps me coming back...though that is dwindling, too.
    I'm not saying that 100% that's the truth. Its just with the ability to look back now over several expansions with and without them... nothing has really changed except they've far restricted our ability to actually build our class which is suspicious.

    I can't speak to PoE but Rift's biggest problem wasn't the population it was Trion Worlds. That game launched and couldn't open enough servers fast enough, it was meant to be the new home of the disgruntled vanilla players. Even went as far to open a taunting PR campaign against WoW.

    The quick TL: DR is Trion built Rift around a couple of pillars. Open world content, building your own class, and a strong sense of community. The vanilla launch of the game was a resounding success and produced 12 major patches in the timeframe Cata launched and ended. Then they started to make serious mistakes, they stopped focusing on open world content and instead refocused on instanced content (why you would ever compete with WoW in raids... I don't know.)

    Massive open world events just didn't happen anymore. They then did the shoe-horning I mentioned a while ago and just put anything and everything worthwhile deep into the tree and it's roots and so to even be effective in combat you had to just dump into one tree. They were so zealot like with it they ended up coining the phrase "deviant builds."

    And as people lost interest in the game because the team demolished these pillars, the sense of community just fell apart. Near the end of Trion World's existence it started to get really bad, the only CM for the forums began to treat anyone criticizing the game with open contempt, the devs only cared about pointless systems, they refused to touch open world content. They also went free to play and there was a lot of drama with that, which wasn't for the better.

    What kills me is the few times after the first expansion launched, when they actually returned to their core principles of the game... they knocked it out of the park. The most obvious example being the launch of the Planetouched Wilds and the Primalist class.

    That game is a gold mine just waiting to be cashed in on. All it needs is a group of people to pick the game and stick to the core principles that was laid out by the founders... and maybe a strong PR campaign.

    Yeah... I'm not lamenting the loss of this game... at all... sorry for the rant.
    Last edited by Selah; 2019-06-01 at 01:41 AM.

  17. #177
    Ok? They were right though.

    I just don't like what they did in Legion/BfA wich was "lets have 3 talents that do basically the same thing". That, i don't find an interesting choice.
    Now if i can choose between ST talent, cleave talent or AoE talent, i have a decision to make for the content i'm gonna tackle. They should go back to that, remove tomes and have a 4h CD on changing talents. This would force you to specialise on a set of talents for the content you will mainly run, rather than change it per encounter.

    Alternatively, they could do it like SWTOR does and make them mostly utility and survival choices and pick over a larger pool than 3 so the few damage increasing ones don't monopolise the available choices.

    So, yeah, i think they were going in the right direction, but made a wrong turn. I do think the old trees didn't offer enough choice though.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2019-06-01 at 04:01 AM.

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