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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    The thing is, they are trying. But ultimately there are clashing axes of alignment among them.
    Several believe in increased spending both by loosening budgetary rules and expanding the EU budget. Salvini and Orban will agree on this as well as Poland but FPO and even LePen will not give them any backing.
    Another concern is immigration. But there Salvini who seeks to lead this alliance has a very different goal to the other members since he is trying to send his immigrants to them.
    Further European integration is a further issue. LePen is extremely anti-federalist but most of the others are lukewarm, especially if it comes with a better budget.
    Then there is the issue of Russia. Hungary and Poland are not at all happy with FPO, LePen or Salvini all being funded by Russia and opposing any action against it.

    So some agree in foreign politics, some in budgetary, some in immigration but none of them really agree on more than two of those issues and are usually strongly opposed to the other. Anti-federalism is the only part they can be reasonably allied though even there, Hungary and Poland are against futher integration largely because they detest the EU holding them accountable for the diminishing democracy in their countries (particularly the constant attacks on the independence of the judiciary); Italy does not even dare to act too far against the EU because every time they do so, the markets slam them down.

    So they are just not a strong voting block because they will not vote together. Their strength does not come at all from their presence in parliament were their few seats make them irrelevant besides making themselves a spectacle for alt-right consumption like Farage likes to do when he rarely shows up for work. Their power comes entirely from the fact that Italy, Poland and Hungary have vetoes in the Eurogroup and thus can attempt to block punitive action against any of them. That is just unlikely to change. There is little chance that Hungary and Poland will change politics. Italy is a different beast of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    This election is also not important to the nationalist parties because strangely enough the nationalist parties do not care about the EU. Let the greens have their seats for all i care . Next presidential election is likely going to be won be LePen . And that will be the beginning of the end.
    Yes, yes, you've said that again. It's a two round system and the votes that are not with Macron or Le Pen are almost to the left of either of them. Let's see how the socialists or communists vote for LePen on the second round. They make hate Macron but they will either not show up or just hold their noses and vote for him to keep her away from the Presidency.

    And not important? All that EU legislation they want to stop originates in the Parliament. It is most important to them. They just have no chance at it.

  2. #162
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Because that's the main reason people are against Frexit, Gerxit, Grexit, and whatever stupid name you can come up with.
    For a year the news have been telling them how the UK will be ruined.
    "If you vote leave we will leave the next day"

    "We're going to leave march 2019"

    "We're going to leave ..."

    What does that tell you?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    True but the circumstances here are vastly different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    I hear this every single fucking year. And every year the nationalist movement gains more and more traction. But hey if you want to delude yourself go ahead.
    They didnt gain anywhere near as much traction as was predicted and in some countries they lost seats. A wave was predicted but all we got was a splash.

    They arent in a position to make any substantial changes, that is a fact. The only one delusional here seems to be you, the fact that Le Pen's party received fewer votes compared to the 2014 election supports that quite well.
    Last edited by Crispin; 2019-05-29 at 07:45 AM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Then there is the issue of Russia. Hungary and Poland are not at all happy with FPO, LePen or Salvini all being funded by Russia and opposing any action against it.
    Oh, let's face it, Orbán is a Putin stooge as well.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Oh, let's face it, Orbán is a Putin stooge as well.
    He certainly cannot afford to be an open one.

  6. #166
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    The EU is crumbling is the equivalent to WoW is dying but on world politics.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    He certainly cannot afford to be an open one.
    He will deny it, but he is hosting Putin here in Hungary at least once every year. He is making multi-billion deals with Russian firms. Some of these deals defy logic, like sending the Budapest Metro's entire rolling stock to be refurbished in Russia when there was a cheaper offer for new stock - and what the Russians have sent back is riddled with mechanical and electrical failures. And there is a lot of smaller stuff, not necessarily criminal, but it adds up.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    It is easy to generalize if you actually listen to the people in the places the far right is slowly taking over in the EU. But all you tend to do is trash people you do not like, and egg on people that want war, civil, or otherwise.

    As for the US, that is your dream, yes, I do not see that happening. Starting from Reagan the country has been turning more and more bi-polar. So it may elect say Biden... a generic neoliberal corporate shill, and you will get Macron in the US... and that just means the next time around, you might get someone like Marine Le Pen.
    That is most likely due to the far right only being able to play one record. It's all about immigration and foreigners. The reason why people flock to them, however, is wildly varied. @Skroe is right. They may adopt the far right stance temporarily, because some aspects of "foreigners out" aligns with them, but as soon as that situation is over, they swing back to moderate voting.

    The "rise of the far right", btw, is over. Most far-rights have abandoned their "leave EU" stance altogether and reverted back to reforming the EU from within. Since that's on the agenda for pretty much every party in some shape or form, all they're left with is once more... "foreigners out". Since the immigration crisis hasn't been an actual crisis for years now, that's also losing appeal.

    One ironic tidbit and the reason why Europeans are relatively comfortable with "the rise of the far right" is that their main agenda against foreigners mean they cannot cooperate with each other EU-wide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    That is my thought as well... it depends on the UK;

    I think the UK drawing the US nearer and creating a trade partnership would probably be the smartest move long term. Other countries being China and Japan.
    For the US it would be smarter (on a small scale, since the UK itself is tiny in comparison). For the UK, it would be catastrophically dangerous to enter a trade agreement with the US. Don't take this the wrong way, but if one cannot bully you into respecting other nations, you just don't. You have no concept of fairness in trade. Not under any President, not even Obama. Certainly not under Trump.
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  9. #169
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    So how is vlaamse belang doing again? oh they won big time because in belgium voting is mandatory. The nationalist parties do not give a fuck about this election mate . That they scored so many wins in this election is just a sign for things to come.
    Without you understanding how they got their or why makes this an absolute pointless discussion to be had with you 'mate'. Also i'm not sure how your reply is in any way suppose to be addressing anything i said.

    Not even sure what things to come is suppose to mean or point to, as i pointed out before i get why some people think this but those that make a big deal out of this or expect some sort of monumental shift are people, who are either young and never seen this happen before and so are easily manipulated or are simply people with short memories. This will mean very little when it comes to EU level in the sense of who are the ruling parties, even on national levels this won't mean nearly as much as you think it does.

    Also VB didn't win big in Belgium they won big in Flanders, so that's your first rookie error, there are no nation wide politcal parties as per the language barrier. So as i said before pointless discussion to be had with you as i would spend majority of the time explaining how things actually function. But i'm sure you can get some kick out of this with your neck bearded friends, not that it will do much in the real world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That is most likely due to the far right only being able to play one record. It's all about immigration and foreigners. The reason why people flock to them, however, is wildly varied. @Skroe is right. They may adopt the far right stance temporarily, because some aspects of "foreigners out" aligns with them, but as soon as that situation is over, they swing back to moderate voting.

    The "rise of the far right", btw, is over. Most far-rights have abandoned their "leave EU" stance altogether and reverted back to reforming the EU from within. Since that's on the agenda for pretty much every party in some shape or form, all they're left with is once more... "foreigners out". Since the immigration crisis hasn't been an actual crisis for years now, that's also losing appeal.

    One ironic tidbit and the reason why Europeans are relatively comfortable with "the rise of the far right" is that their main agenda against foreigners mean they cannot cooperate with each other EU-wide.

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    For the US it would be smarter (on a small scale, since the UK itself is tiny in comparison). For the UK, it would be catastrophically dangerous to enter a trade agreement with the US. Don't take this the wrong way, but if one cannot bully you into respecting other nations, you just don't. You have no concept of fairness in trade. Not under any President, not even Obama. Certainly not under Trump.
    Yup and it's all about a border around Europe, not to mention the far right in Europe are socially left leaning since most of their voters are people who fell on hard times and from lower educational layers and thus lower paying jobs. Regards to pensions the far left and Far right are actually in agreement and both selling fairy tales.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I agree with you, and especially the bolded... I think the UK could pull it off and be better for it, if they do it right... and that's my concern... the politiciens, currently, seem to be grandstanding idiots.
    Please define "better", otherwise there is no substance to this post.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    No matter who runs against her (Unless it's her dad or neice somehow) the voting public will rally around them in the second round. Although her party did get more than Macrons, it was not by much and she did get a lower share than last time
    I honestly don't know, if they had to do the same election today I don't think anyone would vote for Macron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    "If you vote leave we will leave the next day"

    "We're going to leave march 2019"

    "We're going to leave ..."

    What does that tell you?
    It tells me that the Tories and the EU both don't want a Brexit?

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    I hear this every single fucking year. And every year the nationalist movement gains more and more traction. But hey if you want to delude yourself go ahead.
    I dont want to rain on your parade, but I recall the "far right is growing" -narrative being spouted every single year. Back in the 80ies we already had headlines warning us of the 'massive' surge of votes for extreme right. It's an old wives tale by now, clickbait for the media to make money.

    Truth is the votes stagnate and nobody mentions it when they lose votes. Far right had much more votes back in the 90ies than they do now... and back then they didnt manage to do achieve much either.

    It's all bullshit. I voted for them on a local level, but their recent "massive victory" still leaves them about 40% smaller then they were over a decade ago.

    You'll still be warning us "of things to come" 50 years from now and by then I hope more people will know how empty of a promise it has become.
    Last edited by Rochana; 2019-05-29 at 03:14 PM.
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  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Yup and it's all about a border around Europe, not to mention the far right in Europe are socially left leaning since most of their voters are people who fell on hard times and from lower educational layers and thus lower paying jobs. Regards to pensions the far left and Far right are actually in agreement and both selling fairy tales.
    I am really not sure about that. A big part of the far right is racist and/or xenophobic people who were just hiding in the center right for years because the far right was not socially acceptable. They were always here. And it is quite common for them to extend this hate to other minorities like the gays or the Jews.

  14. #174
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am really not sure about that. A big part of the far right is racist and/or xenophobic people who were just hiding in the center right for years because the far right was not socially acceptable. They were always here. And it is quite common for them to extend this hate to other minorities like the gays or the Jews.
    Which is why repression by shame is not a good thing to build a society on.

    With the internet, social media (forums, facebook, etc), people meet and create their own communities and do not need to worry, really, about being "shamed" out of the public square anymore.
    Last edited by Connal; 2019-05-29 at 04:45 PM.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Which is why repression by shame is not a good thing to build a society on.

    With the internet, social media (forums, facebook, etc), people meet and create their own communities and do not need to worry, really, about being "shamed" out of the public square anymore.
    Shame is still out there. That part did not change at all. I am still going to do my best to shame fascists. It's a political action and there is nothing wrong with it, it's part of freedom of expression and association. The problem is state disenfranchisement which is not the same with shame.
    What changed is that politicians realised the far right is an actionable niche. A solid number of them are still quite ashamed about it which is why most poll companies weight far right results up to make up for that shame.

  16. #176
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Shame is still out there. That part did not change at all. I am still going to do my best to shame fascists. It's a political action and there is nothing wrong with it, it's part of freedom of expression and association. The problem is state disenfranchisement which is not the same with shame.
    What changed is that politicians realised the far right is an actionable niche. A solid number of them are still quite ashamed about it which is why most poll companies weight far right results up to make up for that shame.
    Why should they be ashamed? Ashamed of what?

    Why Our Society Has Become a Shame Factory
    The more our justice rituals fail to bring prosperity, peace, and fairness, the more unsatisfying their cover stories become.
    https://fee.org/articles/why-our-soc...shame-factory/

    At some point, shame stops working... and this is what is happening now.
    Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Why should they be ashamed? Ashamed of what?

    Why Our Society Has Become a Shame Factory
    The more our justice rituals fail to bring prosperity, peace, and fairness, the more unsatisfying their cover stories become.
    https://fee.org/articles/why-our-soc...shame-factory/

    At some point, shame stops working... and this is what is happening now.
    Individuals have every right to voice their displeasure.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Why should they be ashamed? Ashamed of what?

    Why Our Society Has Become a Shame Factory
    The more our justice rituals fail to bring prosperity, peace, and fairness, the more unsatisfying their cover stories become.
    https://fee.org/articles/why-our-soc...shame-factory/

    At some point, shame stops working... and this is what is happening now.
    Ashamed of being murderous assholes? I mean, at some point you need to put a stop to the free speech crazy. Or would you let murderers run around free?
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  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ashamed of being murderous assholes? I mean, at some point you need to put a stop to the free speech crazy. Or would you let murderers run around free?
    The thing is, the very basis of the alt-right is trying to shame others yet somehow it's a problem if we try to shame them. They hate us and we need to give up for greater unity apparently.

  20. #180
    Merely a Setback Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Individuals have every right to voice their displeasure.
    I am saying that yes, you can voice your displeasure... but the impact you are hoping for (that the person stops doing that action because of shame) is shrinking.

    The ancient Greeks of The Illiad and The Odyssey was a shame culture, as was the pre-Christian Roman Empire (and Republic before it). History has shown that shame cultures, once they reach a certain level of complexity, become guilt cultures.
    But not everyone feels guilt the same way, due to psychological/genetic differences (it's on a bell curve) and because they may not have anything to feel guilty about, personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ashamed of being murderous assholes? I mean, at some point you need to put a stop to the free speech crazy. Or would you let murderers run around free?
    Murderous assholes are ashamed of murdering people? Have you ever spoken to a murderer? Some people are regretful, feel guilt, shame about it... some (the assholes) use it as bragging rights amongst their friends/prisoners...
    Last edited by Connal; 2019-05-29 at 05:26 PM.
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