WoW Classic Beta: Elite Mob Damage Comparison - Doesn't Add Up

[Unholyground]

It's not even from Private servers... This is not how Classic WoW operated. How can you idiots not realize this?

Private servers tuned things harder than intended because they had almost 0 information of what things actually did or how they worked.

[anon5123]

I seem to remember the battlemages in Strath live being pretty rough if you don't lock them down as well.

Those mobs dealt spell damage, not melee damage.

[Canield]

Been playing on private servers since Nost. One of the things I personally picked up on was the damage elites dealt versus my experience playing retail.

I started playing late vanilla. I was a paladin, I was bad. I could solo elite mobs in loch modan. Fast forward to 2016. I was a paladin and knew what I was doing. I could not kill elites in loch modan. At that point I realized the private servers, while being a great experience, were not perfect.

[Crillam]

It's not even from Private servers... This is not how Classic WoW operated. How can you idiots not realize this?

Because we "idiots" know that we can not trust our memories that are 15 years old.

[nodlimax]

So first, please let me say that finding video material from that time of WoW is difficult.

The first video I found was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OJFwyORS3s which is from 2006 and towards the end I can see a few hits from an mecha strider in Gnomeregan on a rogue (leather). The hits I was able to see were between 65 and 70. The the mecha striders are further inside the dungeon and therefore usually hit a bit harder than what you encounter at the start.

So when I see the slime hitting for 50-60 on leather I'd say that seems about right. Anyone disagreeing? I'm gonna check for some more video footage though because the first one I found is really poor.

Here is another one from Gnomeregan in 2006: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_SR8NVcV_M
I can't see the values but the health bars of the players don't really move all that much. So I don't see how the damage doesn't add up...

Aaaaand one more from Gnomeregan in 2006: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpn0MuDzIZI
Look at the pet. It gets hit by the trog for about 45 melee damage per hit.

[deniter]

This is how elites used to work back in 2006. Something IS wrong in Classic beta for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QDb1j2EfQ8

[Arainie]

It's not even from Private servers... This is not how Classic WoW operated. How can you idiots not realize this?

This is exactly how to be one of those you claim others to be. Your feelycrafting is worth nothing.

[nodlimax]

Here is something from Blackfathom Deeps in 2006: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4W0fpPKVrk

Last bosses seem to hit for a decent amount of damage. Did someone check the bosses in Current WoW Classic beta there? Trash is always a poor reference...

[Thraendil]

This is why people like me have argued for changes, to preserve the game design of vanilla. Of course it's easier today, because we know much more as a collective than during the old days. That's why the game needs to be tuned, made harder, to recreate the experience (which is the essential part). Does it really matter if the numbers aren't exactly the same?

So I hope you enjoy this "#nochange" bullshit. It's ironic that "no changes" was perhaps the biggest change of all. We'll have a museum, not that wonderful experience we seek to recreate.

[Segus1992]

This is what happens when, "holy crap, this mob seems like it's doing so much damage(because my gear is bad and I'm underleveled)," becomes, "The mobs did so much more damage in Vanilla."

Vanilla mobs DID hurt though. I remember being boosted by a T2 Mage in Deadmines and him having to drink/eat often because he took too much damage from just AE:ing everything. 22 per hit is what a normal mob did, if not more, at level 23.

That said, bosses in dungeons in Vanilla didn't really hit for more than normal elites. Maybe a little more, but the normal -> elite mob difference was way bigger than elite -> boss. Most of it came from them having other abilities.

- - - Updated - - -

This is exactly how to be one of those you claim others to be. Your feelycrafting is worth nothing.

What IS worth something then, Blizzard's words? The people who want as many as possible to play Classic and might think that with proper tuning, fewer will want to?

- - - Updated - - -

Because we "idiots" know that we can not trust our memories that are 15 years old.

Read above.

[Julmara]

the basic is back than you where a total idiot at the game probably clicking spells directly in the book

[lonely zergling]

Joanas run is on patch 1.9.2. We get 1.12. So you cant really compare stuff, things changed over the time. Blizzard actually has the correct 1.12 client working and they can double check stuff. I started in february 2006 and I dont actually remember how hard mobs hit..

I personally wish they would make the content a bit harder but atleast we get to play Vanilla on blizzard quality level again (correct mob abilities / locations, droprates).

[Shaetha]

This is why people like me have argued for changes, to preserve the game design of vanilla. Of course it's easier today, because we know much more as a collective than during the old days. That's why the game needs to be tuned, made harder, to recreate the experience (which is the essential part). Does it really matter if the numbers aren't exactly the same?

So I hope you enjoy this "#nochange" bullshit. It's ironic that "no changes" was perhaps the biggest change of all. We'll have a museum, not that wonderful experience we seek to recreate.

WoW was always intended to be an easier MMO experience, especially compared to Everquest. Lack of game knowledge was the only thing that ever made it hard. Time consuming, maybe, but never hard.

[Rafoel]

I want to point out that old Blizzard Vanilla guide pointed at SHAMANS as being able to tank low level dungeons. Shamans, a leather race. Obviously, damage couldn't be that high if leather class was able to tank?

We have examples of dungeon elites being absolutely deadly, as they once were, like the plant boss in Wailing Caverns. We also know or sure that damage of outdoor mobs is generally even a bit higher than it is on private servers (hunters can use Beast Lore to check it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtR0fT3Hz3M).

Why, just why, would damage of "normal elite" mobs be specifically wrong, and lower?

Go and take on dungeon with mobs being orange, not green, group not being overleveled overall, and people not having cc. Tell me then the dungeon would still be completeable in such circumstances. Early dungeons were meant to teach new players about group content, not crush them into ground as soon as they step inside.

[Greyvax]

I tanked strath as a fury warrior in level 60 blue gear during late vanilla

the only time vanilla was hard and elite mobs were scary, was back when you had rogues wearing cloth shoulders, and using a spirit dagger.

[Segus1992]

I want to point out that old Blizzard Vanilla guide pointed at SHAMANS as being able to tank low level dungeons. Shamans, a leather race. Obviously, damage couldn't be that high if leather class was able to tank?

We have examples of dungeon elites being absolutely deadly, as they once were, like the plant boss in Wailing Caverns. We also know or sure that damage of outdoor mobs is generally even a bit higher than it is on private servers (hunters can use Beast Lore to check it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtR0fT3Hz3M).

Why, just why, would damage of "normal elite" mobs be specifically wrong, and lower?

Go and take on dungeon with mobs being orange, not green, group not being overleveled overall, and people not having cc. Tell me then the dungeon would still be completeable in such circumstances. Early dungeons were meant to teach new players about group content, not crush them into ground as soon as they step inside.

Elites on private servers hit a lot harder than they do on beta. Shamans can tank dungeons (all the way to 60) on private servers. Non-argument.

Elite damage could be lower to reduce frustration in dungeons and therefore increase player retention. Vanilla wasn't harder mechanically, but when a fight lasts 60 seconds and your healer's mana lasts 45, skill isn't going to do much.

[nodlimax]

This is why people like me have argued for changes

And you still are wrong. The game should be as it was back then. If you make it harder than just for the sake of it you lock out various player types. You should always remember that Classic back then was intended as a casual experience during leveling while still providing a challenge (which it actually did). I've played on a private server once and the thing I noticed was during Deadmines that some of the stuff was just insane. The adds Van Cleef spawned for example hit way to hard and couldn't even be tanked properly. So the only way to properly defeat VC was to exploit the fight and have the healer position himself to cause the npcs to bug out.

Also you need to consider that quite a bit of content was more balanced in 1.12 than it was at the start. So I'd question whether the reports in the video the OP posted are right. The only way you can proof inaccuracies would by directly comparing specific fights from 2005-2007 using video footage to current fights in Classic 2019. Everything else is just hot air and "feelz"...

[Shaetha]

Vanilla mobs DID hurt though. I remember being boosted by a T2 Mage in Deadmines and him having to drink/eat often because he took too much damage from just AE:ing everything. 22 per hit is what a normal mob did, if not more, at level 23.

Some of them hurt. The elites didn't usually do much more actual damage than normal mobs, but they did have 3 times as much health so they could outlast you. This damage is fairly consistent with my memory. I remember getting boosted by a half t1 warrior in Scarlet Monastery and he didn't have to stop that often. Mages had to stop for mana because AoE spells are very expensive.

[Segus1992]

I tanked strath as a fury warrior in level 60 blue gear during late vanilla

the only time vanilla was hard and elite mobs were scary, was back when you had rogues wearing cloth shoulders, and using a spirit dagger.

Specs didn't do much to change your damage intake - you might get an extra 10% damage reduction from speccing deep Prot vs a Fury/Prot build, and maybe 20% as pure Prot vs a Fury/Arms build, assuming you're using decent tank gear in both cases. Even without being crit immune, as crit immunity didn't decrease your damage taken by a whole lot overall, it would just decrease the spikiness of it.

[Thraendil]

WoW was always intended to be an easier MMO experience, especially compared to Everquest. Lack of game knowledge was the only thing that ever made it hard. Time consuming, maybe, but never hard.

Yeah, but sadly we can't "reduce" or fine tune our knowledge of the game. We loved it for the challange it presented to us, so why not make it challanging this time around too? Increasing the difficulty would make it more vanilla-like, while "#nochanges" would turn it into a boring version of retail. This shouldn't really be a question. We want the vanilla experience, not a museum. No changes is a bigger change than increasing difficulty.