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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by GrinningMan View Post
    If only manslaughter charges were even across the board. A man can be charged for feeding his SO a cocktail designed to force an abortion and be charged, a woman can walk into a clinic and have it done as a procedure. Its a life when its convenient.
    roflmao

    "A man can be charged for rape if he has sex with a woman without her consent. A woman can choose to have sex with someone whenever she wants. It's not fair!!!"

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm clearly not, so you're just bullshitting, here.



    1> No, it really isn't about that. There's no other instance where one human being's right to life would overrule another's right to their own body. Same reason we don't allow forced organ harvesting, in a nutshell. Even if we grant that it's a human life, it still doesn't justify a pro-life stance. And that's a big ask, to be frank.

    2> Biologically, the same markers we use to determine end-of-life wouldn't qualify a fetus for start-of-life until around Week 21. And if you're not using some such objectively-determinative set of markers, you're making shit up. Which is where this becomes religious, or at least pseudo-religious; you make something up, without any basis in reality, and then demand everyone else agree with your fantasy.

    On the last, though; feel free to try and objectively define the beginnings of personhood. Be warned that I will dismiss any qualifiers you use that are either not objective in nature, or which don't determine personhood in other contexts and thus cannot be considered to do so in this one. It has to be objective, because you're trying to convince me, and I'm not going to accept your opinion/preference as an argument. And it has to be a unique description, or you're not describing human personhood in the first place.

    I will also point out ridiculous consequences of an argument, as needed, because if it creates ridiculous consequences, it's a bad definition.



    They may profess to be secular, but their position on this particular subject is not rooted in an objective analysis of the facts at hand. Guaranteed.

    Also, it's a bit silly to claim that the decline in religiosity is somehow a mark against me, when support for pro-life positions is also declining.
    You keep arguing your pseudo religious beliefs at me in a attempt to sway my opinion...

    I made my point already on when it starts. You keep trying to compare death to life as though the two are the same measuring stick. If you simply leave a healthy fetus undisturbed it will grow into a healthy child.

    You can't argue around that last part and it sunders your argument apart. I understand that in your pseudo religious beliefs their is a magic number that makes a fetus a person but the rest of us will simply watch the cycle of life and realize it for what it is.

  3. #543
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewskater View Post
    My question was simply to see if you are arguing from an objective standpoint or not. Judging by your second sentence I can see that you are not since you mentioned laws which are subjective.
    What?

    Laws are objectively defined. That's literally what law codes are.

    The interpretation of how a particular case fits within those laws is subjective, but not the law itself, at all.

    The rest of your post is predicated on this error, so I'm not bothering with it.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by DSRilk View Post
    Agreed. The only problem is that they don't see it as a religious argument. It's simply fact in their eyes. Most importantly, unlike some things that people do that go against their faith, this is not one that is victimless. If someone commits adultery, that's a much more personal sin. Taking a life, however (as they see this), is not just a sin - it is something akin to murder, and thus a law (in their mind) is the only acceptable solution. I don't see an easy way to get them to buy into the argument that their religion should allow them to let this one go. The only solution as I see it is a dilution or dissolution of the general faith of the population. In the US, that's a bit of a way off, I'm afraid.
    I don't really see the religious side of it..?

    What god have I invoked by making the argument that a healthy fetus will grow into a healthy child?

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by DSRilk View Post
    It doesn't have to be considered murder for it to carry a greater penalty. For example, if someone ran me over, they'd be responsible for my injuries. If they ran me over while I was carrying a television, they'd be responsible for both. Given the level of value a mother may put on her pregnancy, there is an argument to be made that causing someone to miscarry should carry a potentially heavy penalty. Then again, I'm a liberal who does not subscribe to it being equated with murder full out. It would be nice if people would stop assuming that there are two sides in this, each with a monolithic position.
    I think a better example would be is if you compared getting ran over by your mom instead of using a tv which is completely irrelevant. Why is it ok for your mom to run you over but not me? It really should be all or nothing in this case.

  6. #546
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    You keep arguing your pseudo religious beliefs at me in a attempt to sway my opinion...
    I get that you're baiting me, but it's pretty low-effort, dude.

    I made my point already on when it starts.
    You just declared it, without justification.

    Without justification, it can be summarily dismissed without consideration. It doesn't mean anything.

    You keep trying to compare death to life as though the two are the same measuring stick.
    No, I'm comparing the start of personhood to the end of personhood, since those are the only points where personhood changes from "yea" to "nay" or vice versa. It's the only legitimate comparison there is.

    If you simply leave a healthy fetus undisturbed it will grow into a healthy child.
    You do not know this. This is you claiming prophetic powers to see the future, and I don't consider claims of magical foresight to be a valid basis for anything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    I don't really see the religious side of it..?

    What god have I invoked by making the argument that a healthy fetus will grow into a healthy child?
    You haven't invoked a god.

    You have claimed the ability to foretell the future with perfect precision.

    Oracles and such have traditionally been religious expressions, y'know.

  7. #547
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    I don't really see the religious side of it..?

    What god have I invoked by making the argument that a healthy fetus will grow into a healthy child?
    Christians believe in a fantasy called the soul. Because jezus who came from an adultress or worse instead got a soul injected from the moment she got pregnant.

    Muslims Don't believe in that that's why you have less irrational fearmongering in that religion.
    Last edited by Thwart; 2019-05-31 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Infracted for forbidden topics

  8. #548
    Scarab Lord Leotheras the Blind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    But then, you phrase pro-choice as "pro baby murder", which means you're not here to engage honestly, but to try and push propaganda and lies.
    That's exactly what it is though, saying it's anything else is sugar coating lies. You're killing a baby when you're having an abortion, you're not planting trees. I know this is a hard concept for you to understand, but stopping the heart of a baby is killing it. Much like if I stopped your heart, I would be killing you.
    You know, it's kinda funny. On this forum you can question and criticize celebrities, developers, even governments. But only two you will net you instant infractions; religion and the actions of moderators. Really puts into perspective the literal god complexes we're dealing with here.

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    I mean that's a bit edgy to say, but the fact remains that being aborted prior to having a consciousness would not have inconvenienced you in the slightest.
    This, that's why my answer is always "Not like i would say anything against that, nor you if you were aborted"

  10. #550
    Scarab Lord Leotheras the Blind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Christians believe in a fantasy called the soul. Because jezus who came from an adultress or worse instead got a soul injected from the moment she got pregnant.

    Muslims Don't believe in that that's why you have less irrational fearmongering in that religion.
    And side stepping his question to shit on christians, well done, well done indeed.
    You know, it's kinda funny. On this forum you can question and criticize celebrities, developers, even governments. But only two you will net you instant infractions; religion and the actions of moderators. Really puts into perspective the literal god complexes we're dealing with here.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Christians believe in a fantasy called the soul. Because jezus who came from an adultress or worse instead got a soul injected from the moment she got pregnant.

    Muslims Don't believe in that that's why you have less irrational fearmongering in that religion.
    They also believe that soul goes immediately to heaven if its host is killed before it's old enough to understand Jesus' graphic death, so I'm not sure what the loss really is for them.

  12. #552
    Both pretty unimportant arguements. There are cases and times when an abortion shouldn't be allowed and then there are those when it should. Anyone who is standing firmly on either end of this debate, meaning wanting hunhinged abortions or wanting to see abortions banned alltogether, are people who are probably so stuck in a certain belief that they can't see reason.

  13. #553
    Scarab Lord Leotheras the Blind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    Anybody who says this and votes conservative is bullshitting.
    Anyone who says this believes in identity politics.
    You know, it's kinda funny. On this forum you can question and criticize celebrities, developers, even governments. But only two you will net you instant infractions; religion and the actions of moderators. Really puts into perspective the literal god complexes we're dealing with here.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I get that you're baiting me, but it's pretty low-effort, dude.



    You just declared it, without justification.

    Without justification, it can be summarily dismissed without consideration. It doesn't mean anything.



    No, I'm comparing the start of personhood to the end of personhood, since those are the only points where personhood changes from "yea" to "nay" or vice versa. It's the only legitimate comparison there is.



    You do not know this. This is you claiming prophetic powers to see the future, and I don't consider claims of magical foresight to be a valid basis for anything.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You haven't invoked a god.

    You have claimed the ability to foretell the future with perfect precision.

    Oracles and such have traditionally been religious expressions, y'know.
    Your entire argument is somehow growth and decay are the same thing rather then opposites...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Christians believe in a fantasy called the soul. Because jezus who came from an adultress or worse instead got a soul injected from the moment she got pregnant.

    Muslims Don't believe in that that's why you have less irrational fearmongering in that religion.
    I'm sure that relates to my question somehow but the greatest code breakers in the world are puzzled by how.

  15. #555
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leotheras the Blind View Post
    That's exactly what it is though, saying it's anything else is sugar coating lies. You're killing a baby when you're having an abortion, you're not planting trees. I know this is a hard concept for you to understand, but stopping the heart of a baby is killing it. Much like if I stopped your heart, I would be killing you.
    And a fetus is not a baby.

    That's why miscarriages aren't treated as homicides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    Your entire argument is somehow growth and decay are the same thing rather then opposites...
    Nothing I said had anything to do with either. You're making shit up, again.

  16. #556
    Scarab Lord Leotheras the Blind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And a fetus is not a baby.

    That's why miscarriages aren't treated as homicides.


    Nothing I said had anything to do with either. You're making shit up, again.
    "I don't consider it a baby so it's not! "Experts" don't either!"

    Funny, that's why people enslaved blacks for hundreds of years, no one considered them people either. Funny how it was the democrats that also fought to keep slavery while it was republicans that put it to an end, amusing how we keep going in this circle.
    You know, it's kinda funny. On this forum you can question and criticize celebrities, developers, even governments. But only two you will net you instant infractions; religion and the actions of moderators. Really puts into perspective the literal god complexes we're dealing with here.

  17. #557
    Scarab Lord Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrinningMan View Post
    One party consent is still rape.
    O....k...? You can consent to doing things to your own body. If someone forces that on you, then you did not consent.

    In your strange example, in only one of the conditions is consent violated: when a man attempts to force an abortion on an unwilling woman...
    Last edited by Noxx79; 2019-05-30 at 08:48 PM.

  18. #558
    This thread seems like it may be on pace to break the record for people using “objectively” to describe things that aren’t objective but support your argument.

    Someone somewhere must have told everyone that using the word “objectively” makes your point irrefutable and also makes you sound really smart. Really it just signals an unwillingness to debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Leotheras the Blind View Post
    "I don't consider it a baby so it's not! "Experts" don't either!"

    Funny, that's why people enslaved blacks for hundreds of years, no one considered them people either. Funny how it was the democrats that also fought to keep slavery while it was republicans that put it to an end, amusing how we keep going in this circle.
    i'm going to have to side with you on this - the whole "when is it a baby?" debate is a pointless distraction from the issue, it's a tactic employed by the forced-birther movement that has been extremely effective because generally speaking liberals are weak willed and lack any spine to stand for their convictions.

    i've never been comfortable with letting that become a focal point of a discussion on abortion, because i think the point should simply be conceded.
    if you want it to be so badly, fine, it's a fully formed baby with chubby little arms and legs and a drooly little face that looks just like gramma from the moment that the guy's dick gets hard just thinking about being able to have sex.
    it's still OK to murder the thing directly in the face, because we as a society have collectively agreed that there are many acceptable circumstances for killing a person, and an unwanted pregnancy (for any reason, or no reason) is one such circumstance.

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And a fetus is not a baby.

    That's why miscarriages aren't treated as homicides.


    Nothing I said had anything to do with either. You're making shit up, again.
    Except it does. You keep comparing decomposition and the end of life to growth and the beginning of it. Your feelings are getting in the way of the basic biology at play here. You keep comparing two opposites and declare them as identical and it is baffling.

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