View Poll Results: How many hybrids would you raid with if you wanted to clear Naxx in a month or two?

Voters
206. You may not vote on this poll
  • 0-2

    44 21.36%
  • 2-4

    21 10.19%
  • 4-6

    11 5.34%
  • 6-8

    9 4.37%
  • 8-10

    3 1.46%
  • 10-12

    3 1.46%
  • 12-14

    0 0%
  • 15-20

    4 1.94%
  • 20-25

    0 0%
  • 25+

    11 5.34%
  • All I want is good people

    71 34.47%
  • As few as possible, low DPS = longer raids and more farming

    27 13.11%
  • Write-In / Reserved

    2 0.97%
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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    No one said mythic raids now are easier than Naxxramas. But he said any fight now is harder than Four Horsemen. Champion of the Light is not harder than Four Horsemen.

    And in the other thread he said normal (not heroic or mythic) fights are way way WAY harder now than Naxxramas, which is an absurd statement.

    "Naxxramas super hard" that's just a strawman. I never said Naxxramas was super hard.
    Dont pull something with all that reaching, stretching, and mental gymnastics.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Dont pull something with all that reaching, stretching, and mental gymnastics.
    What's your point?

    My point is that the original poster was overstating his case. Yes mythic raids now are harder than Naxxramas. But trying to say normal raids
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Normal raids today are still way, way, WAY harder
    which are facerolls where you one shot everything are massively more difficult than the hardest stuff in classic is absurd.

  3. #63
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    What's your point?

    My point is that the original poster was overstating his case. Yes mythic raids now are harder than Naxxramas. But trying to say normal raids which are facerolls where you one shot everything are massively more difficult than the hardest stuff in classic is absurd.
    I missed the part about normal raids tbf. He's plain wrong about that.

    I've approximately averaged the difficulties, so there is a little spill over here and there when you regard early or late bosses but the way I see it:

    Normals beat Onyxia, the majority of MC, a handful of BWL, most of ZG & AQ20, Some early AQ40 bosses and one or two Naxxramas bosses
    Heroics beat The rest of MC, BWL, ZG, AQ20, everything up to Cthun & everything except a handful of Naxx bosses (loatheb ect)
    Mythics beat everything else, the more top end mythics encounters destroy most Vanilla boss encounters multiple times over.

    As for outdoors:

    I'd probably put the likes of Kazzak, Azuregos, and Ysondre pushing towards the top end of Normal with Taerar as early heroic, and Emeriss and Lethon as middle to late heroic. (All in their original none bullshit anniversary forms of course)
    Last edited by Lollis; 2019-06-02 at 12:50 AM.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It's classic. Everything is at LFR levels of difficulty. Bring whatever.
    Then again, why would you play a poorly balanced spec that can't even compete on the meters?

    - - - Updated - - -



    There is no "high end raiding" in classic.
    Found the cata baby

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    I missed the part about normal raids tbf. He's plain wrong about that.

    I've approximately averaged the difficulties, so there is a little spill over here and there when you regard early or late bosses but the way I see it:

    Normals beat Onyxia, the majority of MC, a handful of BWL, most of ZG & AQ20, Some early AQ40 bosses and one or two Naxxramas bosses
    Heroics beat The rest of MC, BWL, ZG, AQ20, everything up to Cthun & everything except a handful of Naxx bosses (loatheb ect)
    Mythics beat everything else, the more top end mythics encounters destroy most Vanilla boss encounters multiple times over.
    Yeah sure, that sounds about right.

    My feeling is that without massive world buff/consumable abuse that we'll probably get about as much challenge out of Naxxramas as a heroic raid at release before you're geared up. One shot some of the bosses, take 10-20 pulls on the later ones. It'll be fun.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It's classic. Everything is at LFR levels of difficulty. Bring whatever.
    Then again, why would you play a poorly balanced spec that can't even compete on the meters?

    - - - Updated - - -



    There is no "high end raiding" in classic.
    sadly since its running 1.12, this will be the case until naxx, which will still be challenging.

  7. #67
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Yeah sure, that sounds about right.

    My feeling is that without massive world buff/consumable abuse that we'll probably get about as much challenge out of Naxxramas as a heroic raid at release before you're geared up. One shot some of the bosses, take 10-20 pulls on the later ones. It'll be fun.
    Certainly, Naxxramas' biggest danger is the gear check, but even with gear it isn't a complete pushover. I think a lot of people are under the illusion that the WotLK version is like the Vanilla version, it just isn't and while Naxx isn't really on mythic levels of difficulty, its not a joke either.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Certainly, Naxxramas' biggest danger is the gear check, but even with gear it isn't a complete pushover. I think a lot of people are under the illusion that the WotLK version is like the Vanilla version, it just isn't and while Naxx isn't really on proper mythic levels, its not a joke either.
    I actually made this thread on the subject.

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-80-difficulty

    Yeah Naxxramas 60 is tuned more like a modern mythic raid numbers wise and Naxxramas 80 is tuned more like an LFR raid. Although with world buffs and extreme alchemy abuse you can ease that tuning greatly.

    Of course with Naxxramas the thing is that lots of us already have experience doing these fights.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2019-06-02 at 12:59 AM.

  9. #69
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    I actually made this thread on the subject.

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-80-difficulty

    Yeah Naxxramas 60 is tuned more like a modern mythic raid numbers wise and Naxxramas 80 is tuned more like an LFR raid.
    I'd probably say Naxx 80 is around Jaina LFR to Conclave normal depending on the bosses for 10 man. 25 man is probably mid-late normal.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  10. #70
    I believe raids will still want a shadow priest, and retridins are quite stronk in Naxx, so those will surely get a spot.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    I'd probably say Naxx 80 is around Jaina LFR to Conclave normal depending on the bosses for 10 man. 25 man is probably mid-late normal.
    Yeah probably. The weird thing about classic tuning is just how insanely powerful consumables are.

    I was just looking at my character on live and using a flask increases my spellpower by 2.5%. Flasking in Ahn'qiraj gear probably increases your spellpower by 50% or more. Flasking in Molten Core probably doubles your spellpower. And then you can stack it with a bunch of elixirs and shit like rallying cry of the dragonslayer that increases your crit by 10% to the point where your damage is probably increased by 300% or more.

    Whenever I look at private server videos they always seem to stack that shit and make a mockery of the content, just can't see how that's fun.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    I missed the part about normal raids tbf. He's plain wrong about that.

    I've approximately averaged the difficulties, so there is a little spill over here and there when you regard early or late bosses but the way I see it:

    Normals beat Onyxia, the majority of MC, a handful of BWL, most of ZG & AQ20, Some early AQ40 bosses and one or two Naxxramas bosses
    Heroics beat The rest of MC, BWL, ZG, AQ20, everything up to Cthun & everything except a handful of Naxx bosses (loatheb ect)
    Mythics beat everything else, the more top end mythics encounters destroy most Vanilla boss encounters multiple times over.

    As for outdoors:

    I'd probably put the likes of Kazzak, Azuregos, and Ysondre pushing towards the top end of Normal with Taerar as early heroic, and Emeriss and Lethon as middle to late heroic. (All in their original none bullshit anniversary forms of course)
    It depends on when you are doing the heroic bosses, since in general heroic gets quite trivial later on into the tier nowadays. Something like week 1 heroic Archimonde (especially with a smaller group) is far far beyond Naxxramas 40 in terms of difficulty; that boss in particular was harder than pretty much everything up to mythic Gorefiend, lol.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Farah View Post
    It depends on when you are doing the heroic bosses, since in general heroic gets quite trivial later on into the tier nowadays. Something like week 1 heroic Archimonde (especially with a smaller group) is far far beyond Naxxramas 40 in terms of difficulty; that boss in particular was harder than pretty much everything up to mythic Gorefiend, lol.
    To be fair, heroic Archimonde was tuned with the legendary ring in mind which no one had yet, which was an insanely massive boost.

    Naxxramas 40 is certainly harder than heroic Battle of Dazar'alor at this point. Most of the bosses are faceroll at this point in the tier. But then you can use consumables/world buffs in Naxxramas 40 and basically crush all the numbers checks so dunno.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2019-06-02 at 02:16 AM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    0. If you're not willing to play an optimal spec you're not suitable for high end raiding.
    There isn't enough gear in vanilla for everyone to play an optimal spec. Posts like this make it clear you never "high end raided' in vanilla and shouldn't be talking about it like you're in the know.

    For example if your guild has 3 or more rogues one of them(preferably 2) damn sure needs to go daggers to use the ones that drop because swords will be fought for with wars. If horde definitely want a hyrbid dps shaman that can off heal otherwise a lot of normally shit mail gear will just go to waste etc...

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    There isn't enough gear in vanilla for everyone to play an optimal spec. Posts like this make it clear you never "high end raided' in vanilla and shouldn't be talking about it like you're in the know.

    For example if your guild has 3 or more rogues one of them(preferably 2) damn sure needs to go daggers to use the ones that drop because swords will be fought for with wars. If horde definitely want a hyrbid dps shaman that can off heal otherwise a lot of normally shit mail gear will just go to waste etc...
    We'll have months between phases, plenty of time to gear everyone, especially with some split raids. Also, a ret palla in current tier gear doesn't suddenly outdps a mage in previous tier gear so then you're still better off taking that mage and disenchant the hybrid gear.

    Calling dagger rogues hybrids feels a bit far fetched. Using whatever weapon is available to do as much dps as possible feels like the exact definition of min max.
    Last edited by willemh; 2019-06-02 at 02:34 AM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    There isn't enough gear in vanilla for everyone to play an optimal spec. Posts like this make it clear you never "high end raided' in vanilla and shouldn't be talking about it like you're in the know.

    For example if your guild has 3 or more rogues one of them(preferably 2) damn sure needs to go daggers to use the ones that drop because swords will be fought for with wars. If horde definitely want a hyrbid dps shaman that can off heal otherwise a lot of normally shit mail gear will just go to waste etc...
    I'm not claiming to have vanilla experience to back this up - but surely even rogues, mages or warriors in pre-raid BiS are going to be doing more damage than a hybrid shaman even if he has fancy BWL-level epics? Especially in later patches with dungeon set upgrade quest-boss gear drops (and dungeon set 2 wherever it's BiS). I agree that it would be a shame for the gear to go to waste, and it would be more wholesome to have a more rounded raid team without stacking; but from a purely numbers perspective, does this line of argument about "not enough gear" hold merit?

    I don't know enough about the damage discrepency between daggers and swords rogues; but doesn't the dagger (sub?) spec provide a boss debuff that would otherwise be unavailable or am I starting to "make it up as I go along". Otherwise that seems like a fair point, if the only example of where this lack of drops would seriously apply.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Whenever I look at private server videos they always seem to stack that shit and make a mockery of the content, just can't see how that's fun.
    I think the moderately healthy competition to clear it "the fastest" seemed to be a driving factor, certainly with MC. Afterall, of all the vanilla raids it's going to be the one most people have done far and away the most times, pretty much any other way of doing it could be considered kinda 'tedious'. I mean I personally steer more to the opposite - take the least optimised group and clear it if artificial challenge is the goal, rather than absurd stacking and speed clearing but to each their own
    Last edited by AeneasBK; 2019-06-02 at 02:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Using whatever weapon is available to do as much dps as possible feels like the exact definition of min max.
    That would be swords.

    Or in other words sub optimal.

    You said you shouldn't be play if not optimal, and yet you where exposed for not knowing what the hell you're talking about.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangers58 View Post
    Found the cata baby
    Not at all. Been around since the start and cleared every raid in a timely manner.
    Well, exept for the current expansion but thats due to IRL getting in the way mostly.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    You still need some hybrids for buffs, so as few as necessary for full buff coverage with the rest playing classes that can actually do their role well.
    Took until post 11 to point this out =)

    Your raid will always have hybrids due buffs, and often at least one per party, no? As many buffs were only party wide(?) at that point.

    There's also different types of dispelling that required hybrids. As all of the hybrids just healed anyway (except Warrior who did very well in both tanking and damage specs) I don't think it's as big a deal as people are making it out to be to have hybrids in raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Certainly, Naxxramas' biggest danger is the gear check, but even with gear it isn't a complete pushover. I think a lot of people are under the illusion that the WotLK version is like the Vanilla version, it just isn't and while Naxx isn't really on mythic levels of difficulty, its not a joke either.
    (mostly agree with you here, your post just got me thinking. Just wanted to let you know I'm not disputing what you are saying above)

    I don't recall their being any extra complexity for most of the boss fights over what we saw for Naxx 80. So the "mythic" level difficulty will likely just be gear checks. Can your tank survive without getting one-shot? Can you kill the boss before your healers run out of mana or you hit the enrage timer.

    Like 4 horsemen for example. You are just running around the room, one corner at a time, when the RL says "go". The only complexity is having 8 geared Prot Warriors to do the tanking for that fight, and getting all 40 people to show up on time and sober.
    Last edited by Ragedaug; 2019-06-02 at 06:01 AM.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  20. #80
    Min-maxing Vanilla raids.

    Pretty cringe bro.

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