View Poll Results: How many hybrids would you raid with if you wanted to clear Naxx in a month or two?

Voters
206. You may not vote on this poll
  • 0-2

    44 21.36%
  • 2-4

    21 10.19%
  • 4-6

    11 5.34%
  • 6-8

    9 4.37%
  • 8-10

    3 1.46%
  • 10-12

    3 1.46%
  • 12-14

    0 0%
  • 15-20

    4 1.94%
  • 20-25

    0 0%
  • 25+

    11 5.34%
  • All I want is good people

    71 34.47%
  • As few as possible, low DPS = longer raids and more farming

    27 13.11%
  • Write-In / Reserved

    2 0.97%
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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Explain me how it's not how it works? Half the people is twice the loot.
    Not really.

    It's half the people, same amount of loot. Distributed, yes people could get twice the loot, but you could already do this with a full raid using DKP system or Guild Rank priority. Many guilds prioritized gearing of Officers and trickled down any duplicates, and that's how they min-maxed it all.

    So effectively you could bring a full raid without gimping your progress and simply distribute the same way you would as if you had half the people - Only 8-10 people would be gearing up while the rest of the raid has a mutual agreement to this system on behalf of improving progress on future runs. Faster geared tank and main heal = smoother run.

    In the case of running with half a party so you can do two runs, then you theoretically have to have an equal split of optimal classes and end up wasting hybrid loot drops for not taking hybrids as a part of that optimization. Taking a Paladin in a 20-man run is not gonna be as optimal as taking another Warrior or Priest.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-06-05 at 06:36 PM.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Not really.

    It's half the people, same amount of loot. Distributed, yes people could get twice the loot, but you could already do this with a full raid using DKP system or Guild Rank priority. Many guilds prioritized gearing of Officers and trickled down any duplicates, and that's how they min-maxed it all.

    So effectively you could bring a full raid without gimping your progress and simply distribute the same way you would as if you had half the people - Only 8-10 people would be gearing up in both cases while the rest of the raid has a mutual agreement to this system on behalf of improving progress on future runs. Faster geared tank and main heal = smoother run.
    I'm not sure what your trying to say here, but no gearing system only gears 8-10 people, and even if it would, gearing 8-10 out of 20 people means gearing 16-20 out of 40 people and is, as I said, exactly twice as effective.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    I'm not sure what your trying to say here, but no gearing system only gears 8-10 people, and even if it would, gearing 8-10 out of 20 people means gearing 16-20 out of 40 people and is, as I said, exactly twice as effective.
    So you're talking about a guild that has two main tanks instead of just 1, 4 offtanks instead of just 2, etc etc. At what point are they going to play together to make use of that 'effectiveness'? It's running two parallel raids inefficiently because it's going to take both parties longer to complete the raid with only half the raid there, and you're going to be wasting loot all along the way by not having the right class compositions available to soak up excess gear.

    If you're looking at it from a pure math point, yes you are correct. But this wouldn't be twice the amount of gear in practice if a bunch of that gear goes to waste and you're doubling up on certain classes for each raid.

    You're basically gearing for 2 main tanks, 4 off tanks instead of gearing 1 main tank 2 offtanks. I don't see how that is efficient, that's simply running two separate raids inefficiently.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-06-05 at 06:45 PM.

  4. #164
    all healers and tanks are hybrids.. so you wouldnt be able to clear naxx at all with that prejudice mindset

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So you're talking about a guild that has two main tanks instead of just 1, 4 offtanks instead of just 2, etc etc. At what point are they going to play together to make use of that 'effectiveness'? It's running two parallel raids inefficiently because it's going to take both parties longer to complete the raid with only half the raid there, and you're going to be wasting loot all along the way by not having the right class compositions available to soak up excess gear.
    You play together for progression, split for farm, obviously. And no, you won't be 20 manning 4 horsemen with 4 offtanks and there really arnt many other fights that a fury warrior slamming on a shield can't offtank.

    It's obviously also not about the excess gear, it's about the shiny items everyone wants.

    Being less efficient (slower) in clearing the raid is also completely irrelevant when you have lockouts and can only clear it once a week anyway.

  6. #166
    Herald of the Titans Lora's Avatar
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    i mean considering you literally can't clear naxx without hybrids bc shadow priests are needed for MC also the fact that all healers + tanks are hybrids so... GL doing 40 pure dps no hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uggorthaholy View Post
    Thanks but no thanks, Lora, for making me question everything in existence forever.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    Hypothetical Scenario: You're thinking about joining a 15 hour / week raid group with the goal of clearing Naxxramas a month or two after P6 drops. You look at the roster and say, "Nope, that's too many hybrids." How many did you see?

    (We'll just say everyone has perfect attendance, so raid size = 40. We'll also assume that everyone is friendly and equally skilled, however, optimal specs might get poached more but too many sub-optimal specs might hurt future recruitment.)

    Edit: I noticed the counts were wrong right as I hit post, and polls can't be edited. It should be:
    0-2
    3-4
    5-6
    7-8
    9-10
    11-12
    13-14
    15-20
    21-25
    26+

    Off-specs also count as hybrids, for example Arcane mages, Survival Hunters, Arms Warriors, anyone that isn't one of these 9 specs:

    Prot Warrior
    Fury Warrior
    Holy Pally
    Resto Shaman
    Marksman (?) Hunter
    Combat Swords (or daggers?) Rogue
    Resto Druid
    0/30/21 or whatever the optimal Warlock spec is
    Fire Mage
    Holy Priest

    Based on what I've read I think I'd go with 5 or 6. I could handle a ret paladin, a feral druid, a boomkin, two shadow or disc priests, and maybe the RL's girlfriend that just has to play Arms warrior. But more than 6 I'd probably start looking at server transfers...
    I would only take a shadow priest and maybe a pure destroy lock. I don't think ret and boomie did enough dps while having no utility. I think.

    As for how easy or high end the raiding was I have to say the % of clears for even AQ let alone Naxx is really really low. Both raids came out after we had a long time to l2p so that isn't an excuse. The raids were imo average but far from easy. Remember you only had so much you could do with your talents, rotation etc.

  8. #168
    either be optimal spec or youre trash

  9. #169
    If you are shooting for clearing naxx a month or two after it releases then it doesnt matter what you take class/spec wise so just play whatever you like.
    Naxx will be cleared the first week its out by dozens of guilds pretty easily with class stacking. That being said, if you plan to be one of those guilds clearing the first week, youll stack dps warriors(most guilds run 16-20 warrior), a few rogues, mages and locks with one disc/shadow (31/0/20) to PI for mage with buff and keep weaving up for locks. Then fill out the rest with tanks healers and buffer specs.
    Last edited by Gsara; 2019-06-06 at 06:05 PM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Matmcc View Post
    I think people are putting difficulty completely down to mechanics. I completely agree that the mechanics of all most every boss fight over the past 4-5 expansions is "Mechanically" more difficult than the hardest bosses in Classic, however... One of the hardest things to overcome in Vanilla is simply damage values and class limitations. Healers ooming and tanks getting smashed extremely hard is the biggest problem all the way through Vanilla, especially early on. Bosses in Mythic might take a bigger percentage of your health away, but healers are more equipped to deal with that now. Every single healers has like 2-3 insta-heals and the amount of HOTS flying around means raid healing isn't a problem anymore. If you're on alliance side in Classic pretty much every single raid heal has to be manually done, you can't rely on chain heal to do the extra healer for you.


    Another thing to consider: Most mechanics nowadays aren't random. What I'm implying here is that you can barely blame RNG for wipes anymore. Almost every wipe is down to player error. In vanilla you can get randomly killed by the very first boss (Onyxia) simply because of an unlucky fear/cleave and there's also the chance of being feared into whelps. There are a lot of situations where things like this can happen in classic and I think it has to be taken into account. It's not difficult by definition, but it's another annoying thing that will affect a guild progress.
    You nailed it.

    And as you allude to the differences in play styles of the classes (and game mechanics like threat etc) will take old timers some time to readjust to, and totally shock anyone who started playing in post Wrath, and contribute to making the "simper" mechanics of Vanilla almost as challenging as they were back in the day

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