How many hybrids would you raid with if you wanted to clear Naxx in a month or two?

[tangers58]

It's classic. Everything is at LFR levels of difficulty. Bring whatever.
Then again, why would you play a poorly balanced spec that can't even compete on the meters?

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There is no "high end raiding" in classic.

Found the cata baby

[Nitros14]

I missed the part about normal raids tbf. He's plain wrong about that.

I've approximately averaged the difficulties, so there is a little spill over here and there when you regard early or late bosses but the way I see it:

Normals beat Onyxia, the majority of MC, a handful of BWL, most of ZG & AQ20, Some early AQ40 bosses and one or two Naxxramas bosses
Heroics beat The rest of MC, BWL, ZG, AQ20, everything up to Cthun & everything except a handful of Naxx bosses (loatheb ect)
Mythics beat everything else, the more top end mythics encounters destroy most Vanilla boss encounters multiple times over.

Yeah sure, that sounds about right.

My feeling is that without massive world buff/consumable abuse that we'll probably get about as much challenge out of Naxxramas as a heroic raid at release before you're geared up. One shot some of the bosses, take 10-20 pulls on the later ones. It'll be fun.

[NihilSustinet]

It's classic. Everything is at LFR levels of difficulty. Bring whatever.
Then again, why would you play a poorly balanced spec that can't even compete on the meters?

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There is no "high end raiding" in classic.

sadly since its running 1.12, this will be the case until naxx, which will still be challenging.

[Lollis]

Yeah sure, that sounds about right.

My feeling is that without massive world buff/consumable abuse that we'll probably get about as much challenge out of Naxxramas as a heroic raid at release before you're geared up. One shot some of the bosses, take 10-20 pulls on the later ones. It'll be fun.

Certainly, Naxxramas' biggest danger is the gear check, but even with gear it isn't a complete pushover. I think a lot of people are under the illusion that the WotLK version is like the Vanilla version, it just isn't and while Naxx isn't really on mythic levels of difficulty, its not a joke either.

[Nitros14]

Certainly, Naxxramas' biggest danger is the gear check, but even with gear it isn't a complete pushover. I think a lot of people are under the illusion that the WotLK version is like the Vanilla version, it just isn't and while Naxx isn't really on proper mythic levels, its not a joke either.

I actually made this thread on the subject.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-80-difficulty

Yeah Naxxramas 60 is tuned more like a modern mythic raid numbers wise and Naxxramas 80 is tuned more like an LFR raid. Although with world buffs and extreme alchemy abuse you can ease that tuning greatly.

Of course with Naxxramas the thing is that lots of us already have experience doing these fights.

[Lollis]

I actually made this thread on the subject.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-80-difficulty

Yeah Naxxramas 60 is tuned more like a modern mythic raid numbers wise and Naxxramas 80 is tuned more like an LFR raid.

I'd probably say Naxx 80 is around Jaina LFR to Conclave normal depending on the bosses for 10 man. 25 man is probably mid-late normal.

[Rampant Rabbit]

I believe raids will still want a shadow priest, and retridins are quite stronk in Naxx, so those will surely get a spot.

[Nitros14]

I'd probably say Naxx 80 is around Jaina LFR to Conclave normal depending on the bosses for 10 man. 25 man is probably mid-late normal.

Yeah probably. The weird thing about classic tuning is just how insanely powerful consumables are.

I was just looking at my character on live and using a flask increases my spellpower by 2.5%. Flasking in Ahn'qiraj gear probably increases your spellpower by 50% or more. Flasking in Molten Core probably doubles your spellpower. And then you can stack it with a bunch of elixirs and shit like rallying cry of the dragonslayer that increases your crit by 10% to the point where your damage is probably increased by 300% or more.

Whenever I look at private server videos they always seem to stack that shit and make a mockery of the content, just can't see how that's fun.

[Farah]

I missed the part about normal raids tbf. He's plain wrong about that.

I've approximately averaged the difficulties, so there is a little spill over here and there when you regard early or late bosses but the way I see it:

Normals beat Onyxia, the majority of MC, a handful of BWL, most of ZG & AQ20, Some early AQ40 bosses and one or two Naxxramas bosses
Heroics beat The rest of MC, BWL, ZG, AQ20, everything up to Cthun & everything except a handful of Naxx bosses (loatheb ect)
Mythics beat everything else, the more top end mythics encounters destroy most Vanilla boss encounters multiple times over.

As for outdoors:

I'd probably put the likes of Kazzak, Azuregos, and Ysondre pushing towards the top end of Normal with Taerar as early heroic, and Emeriss and Lethon as middle to late heroic. (All in their original none bullshit anniversary forms of course)

It depends on when you are doing the heroic bosses, since in general heroic gets quite trivial later on into the tier nowadays. Something like week 1 heroic Archimonde (especially with a smaller group) is far far beyond Naxxramas 40 in terms of difficulty; that boss in particular was harder than pretty much everything up to mythic Gorefiend, lol.

[Nitros14]

It depends on when you are doing the heroic bosses, since in general heroic gets quite trivial later on into the tier nowadays. Something like week 1 heroic Archimonde (especially with a smaller group) is far far beyond Naxxramas 40 in terms of difficulty; that boss in particular was harder than pretty much everything up to mythic Gorefiend, lol.

To be fair, heroic Archimonde was tuned with the legendary ring in mind which no one had yet, which was an insanely massive boost.

Naxxramas 40 is certainly harder than heroic Battle of Dazar'alor at this point. Most of the bosses are faceroll at this point in the tier. But then you can use consumables/world buffs in Naxxramas 40 and basically crush all the numbers checks so dunno.

[Tech614]

0. If you're not willing to play an optimal spec you're not suitable for high end raiding.

There isn't enough gear in vanilla for everyone to play an optimal spec. Posts like this make it clear you never "high end raided' in vanilla and shouldn't be talking about it like you're in the know.

For example if your guild has 3 or more rogues one of them(preferably 2) damn sure needs to go daggers to use the ones that drop because swords will be fought for with wars. If horde definitely want a hyrbid dps shaman that can off heal otherwise a lot of normally shit mail gear will just go to waste etc...

[willemh]

There isn't enough gear in vanilla for everyone to play an optimal spec. Posts like this make it clear you never "high end raided' in vanilla and shouldn't be talking about it like you're in the know.

For example if your guild has 3 or more rogues one of them(preferably 2) damn sure needs to go daggers to use the ones that drop because swords will be fought for with wars. If horde definitely want a hyrbid dps shaman that can off heal otherwise a lot of normally shit mail gear will just go to waste etc...

We'll have months between phases, plenty of time to gear everyone, especially with some split raids. Also, a ret palla in current tier gear doesn't suddenly outdps a mage in previous tier gear so then you're still better off taking that mage and disenchant the hybrid gear.

Calling dagger rogues hybrids feels a bit far fetched. Using whatever weapon is available to do as much dps as possible feels like the exact definition of min max.

[AeneasBK]

There isn't enough gear in vanilla for everyone to play an optimal spec. Posts like this make it clear you never "high end raided' in vanilla and shouldn't be talking about it like you're in the know.

For example if your guild has 3 or more rogues one of them(preferably 2) damn sure needs to go daggers to use the ones that drop because swords will be fought for with wars. If horde definitely want a hyrbid dps shaman that can off heal otherwise a lot of normally shit mail gear will just go to waste etc...

I'm not claiming to have vanilla experience to back this up - but surely even rogues, mages or warriors in pre-raid BiS are going to be doing more damage than a hybrid shaman even if he has fancy BWL-level epics? Especially in later patches with dungeon set upgrade quest-boss gear drops (and dungeon set 2 wherever it's BiS). I agree that it would be a shame for the gear to go to waste, and it would be more wholesome to have a more rounded raid team without stacking; but from a purely numbers perspective, does this line of argument about "not enough gear" hold merit?

I don't know enough about the damage discrepency between daggers and swords rogues; but doesn't the dagger (sub?) spec provide a boss debuff that would otherwise be unavailable or am I starting to "make it up as I go along". Otherwise that seems like a fair point, if the only example of where this lack of drops would seriously apply.

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Whenever I look at private server videos they always seem to stack that shit and make a mockery of the content, just can't see how that's fun.

I think the moderately healthy competition to clear it "the fastest" seemed to be a driving factor, certainly with MC. Afterall, of all the vanilla raids it's going to be the one most people have done far and away the most times, pretty much any other way of doing it could be considered kinda 'tedious'. I mean I personally steer more to the opposite - take the least optimised group and clear it if artificial challenge is the goal, rather than absurd stacking and speed clearing but to each their own

[Tech614]

Using whatever weapon is available to do as much dps as possible feels like the exact definition of min max.

That would be swords.

Or in other words sub optimal.

You said you shouldn't be play if not optimal, and yet you where exposed for not knowing what the hell you're talking about.

[Aggrophobic]

Found the cata baby

Not at all. Been around since the start and cleared every raid in a timely manner.
Well, exept for the current expansion but thats due to IRL getting in the way mostly.

[Ragedaug]

You still need some hybrids for buffs, so as few as necessary for full buff coverage with the rest playing classes that can actually do their role well.

Took until post 11 to point this out =)

Your raid will always have hybrids due buffs, and often at least one per party, no? As many buffs were only party wide(?) at that point.

There's also different types of dispelling that required hybrids. As all of the hybrids just healed anyway (except Warrior who did very well in both tanking and damage specs) I don't think it's as big a deal as people are making it out to be to have hybrids in raid.

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Certainly, Naxxramas' biggest danger is the gear check, but even with gear it isn't a complete pushover. I think a lot of people are under the illusion that the WotLK version is like the Vanilla version, it just isn't and while Naxx isn't really on mythic levels of difficulty, its not a joke either.

(mostly agree with you here, your post just got me thinking. Just wanted to let you know I'm not disputing what you are saying above)

I don't recall their being any extra complexity for most of the boss fights over what we saw for Naxx 80. So the "mythic" level difficulty will likely just be gear checks. Can your tank survive without getting one-shot? Can you kill the boss before your healers run out of mana or you hit the enrage timer.

Like 4 horsemen for example. You are just running around the room, one corner at a time, when the RL says "go". The only complexity is having 8 geared Prot Warriors to do the tanking for that fight, and getting all 40 people to show up on time and sober.

[Voidwielder]

Min-maxing Vanilla raids.

Pretty cringe bro.

[exochaft]

Certainly, Naxxramas' biggest danger is the gear check, but even with gear it isn't a complete pushover. I think a lot of people are under the illusion that the WotLK version is like the Vanilla version, it just isn't and while Naxx isn't really on mythic levels of difficulty, its not a joke either.

I think the difficulty lies more in the sheer number of people than necessarily the difficulty of the fights/mechanics themselves. The simple version is that the chance of you having 40 people who play at the same elevated level is pretty slim. It's rather akin to some fights today where a few idiots (or even one) can cause a wipe. We had a few "special" people in AQ40/Naxx40 who were constantly issues in terms of positioning and following call-outs, and that was the main source of difficulty for us.

I also think the difficulty lies in how combat mechanics were back then, especially from a tanking/healing perspective. I still remember just having a team of healers casting/cancel-casting on tanks because of how spiky the damage could be at times. It'll probably be a rude awakening in comparison to live, where incoming tank damage is generally smooth. Also, you get the one "special" rogue who moves too close to the front of the boss and parry-hastes the boss to no end... or was it a warrior? I can't recall, we had dumb melee.

[Synbios]

I think you guys are grossly mis-remembering Classic. There were no hybrid specs in high-end guilds, because their damage was not even close to being competitive and their buffs were not meaningful (that didn't happen until BC). Prot paladins and Feral druids also didn't exist.

Early Classic is going to be easier than Vanilla was because of the 1.12 patch (and the itemisation that comes with it), but I still don't expect to see hybrids in Naxxramas, because beyond the relatively simple mechanics, it was tightly tuned.

[Ragedaug]

I don't know that the poll is written out very well.

Hybrids in Vanilla are Warriors and the Healers. Outside of novelty and those being carried, just 'cause you can't find 40 otherwise, if you aren't a warrior or a Pure DPS, you healed. Even if you were spec'd as DPS or buff spec, you healed.

So is the question, how many hybrid DPS are you going to have that aren't healing? Or how many total raiders would you allow to raid with you who aren't in the "correct" spec?

If that's the case, the most hardcore raiders won't have any raiding who aren't in the correct spec. The rest of the raid groups will probably have 25-30 good players, who are spec'd correctly who carry the raid and the 10-15 scrubs that are running around pushing buttons in all kinds of mixed specs & gear.

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I think you guys are grossly mis-remembering Classic. There were no hybrid specs in high-end guilds, because their damage was not even close to being competitive and their buffs were not meaningful (that didn't happen until BC). Prot paladins and Feral druids also didn't exist.

Early Classic is going to be easier than Vanilla was because of the 1.12 patch (and the itemisation that comes with it), but I still don't expect to see hybrids in Naxxramas, because beyond the relatively simple mechanics, it was tightly tuned.

Vanilla = Balanced spec'd Druid running around healing in Naxx with Agi gear talking about how great the item is they just got because of the high armor count.

Was it a high end guild? I dunno. They got into Naxx. So...? /shrug
My experience was that outside of the top guilds, like regional top 5 or top 10, the rest were bringing warm bodies to fill out the last 10-15 spots on the roster.