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  1. #21
    Crap. Give back all talent trees style.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatto View Post
    Nope.

    The less the customization, the better for the balance.

    We need more and different challenges, not customization ( which is meaningless, since there will always be a better spec or class, and it will simply change the meta ).
    Balance is part of what has ruined this game and made it stale. Ultimate balance is impossible, Embrace chaos and realize that some brokenly fun builds for a patch or two was when WoW was at it's best and classes were the most fun.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    Balance is part of what has ruined this game and made it stale. Ultimate balance is impossible, Embrace chaos and realize that some brokenly fun builds for a patch or two was when WoW was at it's best and classes were the most fun.
    you either didnt pvp seriously or rerolled every patch to play fotm.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatto View Post
    It definitely won't, but you can increase balance in many ways.

    I simply tend to prefer more balance and less customization.

    To be clear, the more you remove rpg elements, the better the balance.
    Then don't play an RPG. What's the big deal?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    fair enough, but i don't mind the balance of 1.12 since it helped to bring other classes into the fold more... but i'd have been salty if it was 1.13 and TBC talents.

    there's actually some TCG guys on the classic forum crying they deserve their pets cuz the pre tbc patch was "classic" technically /eyeroll.

    no worries about tbc talents at least. that ain't happening
    Don't get me wrong, I simply would have wanted to see things gradually ( I know that they don't have "data" before 1.12, but through wikis, videos and who knows, unofficial servers, thing could have been definitely done, in order to help recreate a better experience.

    I do agree about the better customization too.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatto View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I simply would have wanted to see things gradually ( I know that they don't have "data" before 1.12, but through wikis, videos and who knows, unofficial servers, thing could have been definitely done, in order to help recreate a better experience.

    I do agree about the better customization too.
    The problem with that is many classes were worthless or lesser in vanilla and gradually got better from 1.6-1.12

    Launching it at 1.12 just means those classes don’t have to suffer again as badly. They can be viable tier 1 instead of the end

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    Balance is part of what has ruined this game and made it stale. Ultimate balance is impossible, Embrace chaos and realize that some brokenly fun builds for a patch or two was when WoW was at it's best and classes were the most fun.
    Balance affects almost any game, but I still find wow enjoyable, that's why still I am playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Then don't play an RPG. What's the big deal?
    Rpg stuff is ok when it is related to rpg modes.

    Rated pvp and some pve ( first kills or m+ escalation ) which is meant to be competitive should be way better, in terms of fairness and balance, without a large customization.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Costa View Post
    Balance is never gonna be perfect, i would take the massive trees of Vanilla over a talent tree design we have now just because you can make your own spec you enjoy more.
    YOu never made your own spec with the old trees. getting a .ooooo1% increase to already existing talents does not = ,making your own spec. People really are trying to use revisionist history on those old trees.

  9. #29
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    This conversation and reply was moved to Q&A section. This section is now dedicated to one of the class' Dynamic Talent.

    ==UPDATE==




    Death Knight Dynamic Talent Section
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2019-06-18 at 04:56 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    One of the major features of talent system from Vanilla to WotLK is the point spending system which allows you to dump points and benefit certain effect with specific values under each tier.

    This is similar to artifact trait although implemented in item and using artifact power.
    1) honest question, do you ever have ideas that are not terrible?

    2) all they really need to do to make our spellbooks happy again is remove the spec split and just let us have everything thats not bound by talents

    3) if you wanted an idea that wasnt terrible, you should have started there and came up with a set of talented spells for every class that we can pick and choose from

    4) you never had a choice in vanilla. the 1% per point talents were mandatory and usually the only ones that didnt suck a donkey in that row

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    In short, OP is proposing something akin to Torchlight II's talent system, if I understood correctly. Not a bad thing, and it could give an extra layer or two of RPG paint to the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Thrall will humblebrag about how he doesn't want it [to be Warchief].
    Saurfang'll probably die or say he's 'too tired'.
    Baine will gasp for air as he plops Anduin's boot out of his mouth and say 'I'll be High King of the Horde!'.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatto View Post
    Nope.

    The less the customization, the better for the balance.

    We need more and different challenges, not customization ( which is meaningless, since there will always be a better spec or class, and it will simply change the meta ).
    I have been part of DoTA1 balance suggestions and remake team and our least concern is balance over spell mechanics as it can be nerfed/tweaked accordingly.


    Tier 1 Mirror Image will have higher cooldown and lesser copy than current base talent. I.E. 4 min CD and creates 1 copy.

    At level 45, tier III, Mirror Image will be an equivalent of current talent 2 min CD with 3 images.



    Tier VI,VII,VIII or IX greatly modifies the spell depending on what column you choose or property

    Theoretically we can say
    α - cooldown reduction scaling from 2 mins down upto 30 seconds.
    β - mirror image copies and duration from 1 to 9. Appearing as 2,3,4 copies. Tier I 1 copy for 10 seconds,14,18,22,26,30 seconds.
    γ - mirror images has chance to trigger a mirror cast, using the spell you previously used for the entire duration.

    Ultimate version. - can be γ or mirror image is now delayed after x seconds and grants you a buff for the same amount of time. Every spell you cast during the duration are applied by one of the image cycling from normal spell cast to the succeeding spell.

    Or mirror image can be casted on an enemy or an ally copying which ever spell or skills it does after x seconds for half of the regular talent's duration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Costa View Post
    This is true, the less spells and external elements the easier to balance, but does that make it more fun for you if you had <10 spells total and a few talents which their will always be a "BIS" one to take over having 1-2 under performing chars and 1-2 over performing chars? I guess it is opinion and i understand yours just think that maybe that would turn the game into something completely different if it went down that road.
    Imagine DoTA or DoTA 2 with 100 different heroes and 400+ spells and ultimate..

    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2019-06-18 at 05:02 AM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    Talents become multifaceted and works in theme with a Classic release Talent or a time travel+black empire expac.
    Not at all what lolvik was talking about. TimeCube has no connection to WoW. Or to anything as far as anybody can tell.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorbalt View Post
    1) honest question, do you ever have ideas that are not terrible?

    2) all they really need to do to make our spellbooks happy again is remove the spec split and just let us have everything thats not bound by talents

    3) if you wanted an idea that wasnt terrible, you should have started there and came up with a set of talented spells for every class that we can pick and choose from

    4) you never had a choice in vanilla. the 1% per point talents were mandatory and usually the only ones that didnt suck a donkey in that row
    Some are mandatory but some are optional. I would include TBC and WotLK to the classic era talent system since the talent revamp was done in Cata ..Major pruning and goodbye hybrid spec.

    In WotLK you can be disc priest with mind flay if talent invested. Or a somewhat DPS holy priest with mana regen from spirit tap.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Not at all what lolvik was talking about. TimeCube has no connection to WoW. Or to anything as far as anybody can tell.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=time...iw=360&bih=630
    This.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    I have been part of DoTA1 balance suggestions and remake team and our least concern is balance over spell mechanics as it can be nerfed/tweaked accordingly.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Haven't played Torchlight yet but I'll check it out since you mentioned it.

    Update: I have checked the talent system of Torchlight just now and in a way, yes.

    Each talent column modifies a specific property of a talent and as you move it higher to it's tier, the value scales accordingly to either decrease or increase a value in a beneficial way.

    Tier 1 Mirror Image will have higher cooldown and lesser copy than current base talent. I.E. 4 min CD and creates 1 copy.

    At level 45, tier III, Mirror Image will be an equivalent of current talent 2 min CD with 3 images.



    Tier VI,VII,VIII or IX greatly modifies the spell depending on what column you choose or property

    Theoretically we can say
    α - cooldown reduction scaling from 2 mins down upto 30 seconds.
    β - mirror image copies and duration from 1 to 9. Appearing as 2,3,4 copies. Tier I 1 copy for 10 seconds,14,18,22,26,30 seconds.
    γ - mirror images has chance to trigger a mirror cast, using the spell you previously used for the entire duration.

    Ultimate version. - can be γ or mirror image is now delayed after x seconds and grants you a buff for the same amount of time. Every spell you cast during the duration are applied by one of the image cycling from normal spell cast to the succeeding spell.

    Or mirror image can be casted on an enemy or an ally copying which ever spell or skills it does after x seconds for half of the regular talent's duration.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Talents become multifaceted and works in theme with a Classic release Talent or a time travel+black empire expac.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Imagine DoTA or DoTA 2 with 100 different heroes and 400+ spells and ultimate..

    - - - Updated - - -



    That would be too much! 3 columns would be enough. They just need to allow more talent synergy in play and each talent inherently modifies or augment base spell or ability.
    But we are not playing Dota 2, someone in another thread mentioned how this game is turning more into a MOBA than an RPG and that is what you just highlighted here. We do not want a MOBA gameplay if we did then we would be playing a MOBA aka Dota 2 not WoW....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    One of the major features of talent system from Vanilla to WotLK is the point spending system which allows you to dump points and benefit certain effect with specific values under each tier.

    This is similar to artifact trait although implemented in item and using artifact power.
    Yes i agree he similarities to Artifact trait but that was the first time in 2 expansions we had some stuff to burn and now this expansion we literally got nothing. Warriors i think were the only class to receive changes to spec with Fury getting a little redesign but other than that it was no class changes, a few new gameplay ideas, a decent story but that was it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    YOu never made your own spec with the old trees. getting a .ooooo1% increase to already existing talents does not = ,making your own spec. People really are trying to use revisionist history on those old trees.
    From a mage point of view, you would spec to PoM, then spec to Pyroblast then add in a few talents from Frost for example. You cannot do that on live, i cannot play with PoM, Pyro and Frostbolt no more. That is what i mean the talent trees allowed you to do, now i am not saying that there is a huge array of different builds that are best for dps or whatever but there is still more of an option. Right now you have a talent tree on live which offers you 6 rows of 1 choice each out of 3 per row, that is minimal choice and at best only 3 of the rows are changeable in terms of being able to compete with each other on dps (only talking dps here and mage specifically) the rest are all must talents or only 1 is useful.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatto View Post


    Talents would probably be the less problematic stuff to deal with, just because

    • There will always be a BEST build for every class
    • Everybody will have the same talents

    But, if you think about it, since there's always a best build... then the work towards talents would be pretty much a waste of time ( unless you plan an ongoing work on them, which changes the meta every x months because of modifies ).

    - - - Updated - - -



    I disagree.

    Classic is fresh air because wow became an even more casual game, with RNG stuff like

    • Warforged/Titanforged
    • Sockets
    • Extra random stats
    • Impossible to trade items if you don't have the same ilvl on that specific slot
    • Bonus roll unable to be traded
    • No granted drop


    In classic the builds where always the same.
    There were no random or customization if you wanted to be efficient.

    You have ofc more possibilities, but since the best stuff is always one or at least two builds related, what's the point of it?
    Not in this one. There will be no standard build for a certain spec and this will replicate the cookie cutter build feel and experience as there are multiple ways of playing a spec. One player and his chosen class and spec will entirely feel different from the other player with same class and spec but different talent build.

    Possibility in this one for fun factor is increased multiple folds and the probability for function are endless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Costa View Post
    But we are not playing Dota 2, someone in another thread mentioned how this game is turning more into a MOBA than an RPG and that is what you just highlighted here. We do not want a MOBA gameplay if we did then we would be playing a MOBA aka Dota 2 not WoW....

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes i agree he similarities to Artifact trait but that was the first time in 2 expansions we had some stuff to burn and now this expansion we literally got nothing. Warriors i think were the only class to receive changes to spec with Fury getting a little redesign but other than that it was no class changes, a few new gameplay ideas, a decent story but that was it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    From a mage point of view, you would spec to PoM, then spec to Pyroblast then add in a few talents from Frost for example. You cannot do that on live, i cannot play with PoM, Pyro and Frostbolt no more. That is what i mean the talent trees allowed you to do, now i am not saying that there is a huge array of different builds that are best for dps or whatever but there is still more of an option. Right now you have a talent tree on live which offers you 6 rows of 1 choice each out of 3 per row, that is minimal choice and at best only 3 of the rows are changeable in terms of being able to compete with each other on dps (only talking dps here and mage specifically) the rest are all must talents or only 1 is useful.
    First of all thank you for pitching in your insights.

    Let me address your concerns along the way.I'll deal with the last one,first.
    From a mage point of view, you would spec to PoM, then spec to Pyroblast then add in a few talents from Frost for example. You cannot do that on live, i cannot play with PoM, Pyro and Frostbolt no more. That is what i mean the talent trees allowed you to do, now i am not saying that there is a huge array of different builds that are best for dps or whatever but there is still more of an option. Right now you have a talent tree on live which offers you 6 rows of 1 choice each out of 3 per row, that is minimal choice and at best only 3 of the rows are changeable in terms of being able to compete with each other on dps (only talking dps here and mage specifically) the rest are all must talents or only 1 is useful.
    The major reason why there are now 9 Tiers grants you more choices.So when 9.0 releases, there will be two more ranks that will be included at levels 105 and 120. This will tie up with the systems overhaul being done every expansion.

    That also means additional of 6 more talent choices for the 2 allocated spaces. With my suggested dynamic talent, one talent does not necessarily compete with those other two talents in it's same rank, so to speak with the current talent system. You can have Mirror Image and Rune of Power activated as talent and placing either of the two at any Talent tier with varying values and effect.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2019-06-05 at 12:18 PM.

  17. #37
    The Patient Toxuvox's Avatar
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    I know some folks are against the idea, but a rejig of the talent system combined with a level squish may be the best way to go. I appreciate the issues that may arise when it comes to levelling from Vanilla through to BfA, and then whatever the next expansion may be, with a smaller amount of levels to progress through. Maybe levelling up to the threshold of the newest expansion becomes a choice thing once you leave the starter area? I don't know. But with a smaller amount of levels, we'd gain the talents comparatively faster, rather than every 15 levels, giving that feeling of "powering up" a little more weight. That way they don't need to add extra talent tiers, and can concentrate on improving the talents on offer, making them more meaningful and impacting.

  18. #38
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    MY BAD: Doubly reply. I was having trouble with posting my reply awhile ago.

    Actually this will be the era of Sub-spec after the introduction of allied races. Think about
    Temporal Arcmages, Master Illusionist, And Arcanists
    Priest could play their then RP role of Priestess of the moon (Holy and Void with the power of the moon), Draenei invoking the two aspects of Na'aru. Shadow Priest who specializes on Psychic and Mind Spells the other on Vampirism (almost healing subspec) and Pure shadows.

    The content of this post has been moved to Q&A section and will be utilized for one of the Dynamic Talents of a Spec
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2019-06-17 at 09:47 PM.

  19. #39
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    The reply made for this section has been moved to the OP. This will be used for one of the Dynamic Talents.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2019-06-17 at 09:48 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costa View Post
    Balance is never gonna be perfect, i would take the massive trees of Vanilla over a talent tree design we have now just because you can make your own spec you enjoy more.
    You may enjoy a custom spec but I feel like most people forgot that even with the talent trees you're basically still forced into a cookie-cutter build back in "ye olde days" if you really wanted to do end-game content, especially raids. Also, the class balancing of vanilla was terrible. Sure, balance is never going to be perfect but you can mitigate those issues by reducing the needless complexity of talent trees. A lot of the talents weren't even that "fun". Like, 3% increase to critical strike. That's not "fun". Nor is it fun not having many possible viable specs to choose from. In vanilla, if you wanted to heal, you'd be better off rolling a Holy Priest because healing on the other specs was atrocious and not as optimized because of balance issues.

    Yeah... no. Balance trumps customization.

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